Why Islands? Reshaping Ravenloft

[Vlad]

While DMing I noticed that my PCs started to dislike RL because of the many islands, which they only visited for a short while before moving on (never to come back). Only when they arrived at the Core (and stayed there for a while) they began to like it, because now they were able to have a bond with the land and it's people (the world being a more coherent entity and the possibility to return to certain places/people). For me as a DM it applies as well. I do like some Islands and know it works better when they are isolated, but why so many islands? I think part of it was solved with DoD merging several islands into clusters. If I were able to change things, I would:
- make Sourange land on the other side of the Sea of Sorrows (like Vechor)
- Put Sri Raji in the neighbourhood of Vechor
- Zherisia could be on the edge of the Sea of Sorrows as well.
- Put Bluetspur back were it came from (perhaps more southerly)
- Vorostokov north of Darkon
- Staunton Bluffs somewhere in the west/soutwestern Core
- Nidala south of the Core, as an extension to the Balinok range
- The Burning peaks can become a real Island in the Sea, or remain as it is.

The Nightmare lands should stay like it is today.
What are your ideas on this? What would you do if you could redesign the core from scratch?

[ewancummins]

While DMing I noticed that my PCs started to dislike RL because of the many islands, which they only visited for a short while before moving on (never to come back). Only when they arrived at the Core (and stayed there for a while) they began to like it, because now they were able to have a bond with the land and it's people (the world being a more coherent entity and the possibility to return to certain places/people). For me as a DM it applies as well. I do like some Islands and know it works better when they are isolated, but why so many islands? I think part of it was solved with DoD merging several islands into clusters. If I were able to change things, I would:
- make Sourange land on the other side of the Sea of Sorrows (like Vechor)
- Put Sri Raji in the neighbourhood of Vechor
- Zherisia could be on the edge of the Sea of Sorrows as well.
- Put Bluetspur back were it came from (perhaps more southerly)
- Vorostokov north of Darkon
- Staunton Bluffs somewhere in the west/soutwestern Core
- Nidala south of the Core, as an extension to the Balinok range
- The Burning peaks can become a real Island in the Sea, or remain as it is.

The Nightmare lands should stay like it is today.
What are your ideas on this? What would you do if you could redesign the core from scratch?

Hmmmm, well, you could always use Mistways. I do.

I have fused Farelle to the Core, and made use of the Farelle stuff from QtR.

Bluetspur either shouldn't exist at all or should remain isolated, IMO. It's not a good fit for the Core- and maybe not for the demiplane.

Zherisia loses the claustrophobic feel and the whole 'hovering at the edge of starvation' angle if you place it in the Core.

Vorostokov doesn't work well as a Core domain, as its people would just emigrate. Why remain there and starve to death in a cursed land of eternal winter, when warm lands full of food are nearby?

Staunton Bluffs would be a fine Core domain. I'd either make it an island off the coast of Mordent, or make it a pocket domain within Mordent.

The Burning Peaks? Vecna and Kas? Bleeargh! We hateses it, nasty hobbitses! Excise from Ravenloft, if you ask me.

Sourange? Yeah, that could work well as a land across the sea.

Sr Raji across the sea? Sure, although I prefer to leave it in the mists but linked to the core via a mistway. It's more of an exotic, far away country that way.

I like your idea of Nidala in the Southern Core. Good fit.

You mentioned Vechor. I've always thought that it worked better as an Island of Terror. If you are going to add domains to the Core+ seas megacluster, why not just replace Vechor with Sourange?

YMMV

[Vlad]

Hmmmm, well, you could always use Mistways. I do.

True, those are, by the way, in my opinion also new measures to make the world more 'linked'. But I'd prefer the 'normal' way. People using the mist (albeit with danger) like a transportation way on purpose doesn't fit with my idea of the supernatural (mist).

I have fused Farelle to the Core, and made use of the Farelle stuff from QtR.

Nice.

Bluetspur either shouldn't exist at all or should remain isolated, IMO. It's not a good fit for the Core- and maybe not for the demiplane.

Disagree. I'm not sure about the Core, but somehow prefer it above an island. I do like the concept (but not Thoughts of Darkness)

Zherisia loses the claustrophobic feel and the whole 'hovering at the edge of starvation' angle if you place it in the Core.

But why wouldn't they move to another place with their mistways? (like you say below about Vorostokov)

Vorostokov doesn't work well as a Core domain, as it's people would just emigrate. Why remain there and starve to death in a cursed land of eternal winter, when warm lands full of food are nearby?

Good point. Applies to some domains (Falkovnia) as well I'd think.

The Burning Peaks? Vecna and Kas? Bleeargh! We hateses it, nasty hobbitses! Excise from Ravenloft, if you ask me.

LOL. I like the 'ancient magic'-idea though.

I like your idea of Nidala in the Southern Core. Good fit.

You mentioned Vechor. I've always thought that it worked better as an Island of Terror. If you are going to add domains to the Core+ seas megacluster, why not just replace Vechor with Sourange? YMMV

[/quote]Why as an island?

[Sareau]

I pretty much use a map of Europe, with Darkon as the Byzantine Empire, and the other lands about where they were inspired. Sri Raja in India, Hazlik in Persia, Kalidnay in Carthage-it also let me "cheat" a little, by making Azalin Julian the Apostate and Kalid-Ma Hannibal, but that's just my laziness. Besides, Borca works a lot better for me with the entire House of Borgia around, not just Lucretia and Cesar, and despite the definite anachronisms, these historic thumbnails are much easier on me.
The Nightmare Lands and Shadow Rifts are alternate planes like the Astral and Ethereal, but pretty much I include most of the domains, each locked in time by the darklord...

[ewancummins]

Vechor is 'weird' and I think that works best if it's an IoT, like the Nightmare Lands. The laws of nature are manifestly different there. Of course, Lamordia is also 'weird' IMC, and it's in the Core. You should use whatever suits you, as always.

Zherisians do leave via the mistway, IMC. The city is slowly dying.
It's a risky route, though, and so many stay at home and make do as best they may.

Mistways range from mostly reliable to tenuous and unreliable. Even the best of them may dump you someplace random, maybe someplace worse.

Some Falkovnians do leave, IMC. There's no mass exodus because a lot of Falkovnians feel at home in their own country, or wouldn't want to leave their families, etc. There's also the issue of martial law.
Why didn't the entire population of East Germany flee west? Some did. Many were shot by the border guards. Many more stayed at home and made do. Why didn't Russia empty out with mass defection during the long, dark night of Communist misrule?


Vorostokov doesn't have a human problem like a bad government. It's a land cursed with endless snows and ice, the people living on a knife's edge. You can bribe a Falkovnian soldier, or call on his mercy. He's human, after all. The freezing winter doesn't give a damn about you or anything human, and in Vorostokov it is eternal.

[HuManBing]

I also agree that the islands' inaccessibility makes them hard to incorporate into campaigns in a reliable fashion. When I adapted the Grand Conjunction adventures, I specifically tried to keep everything close to the Core. The one time I needed the PCs to journey further afield was for Touch of Death (set in Har'Akir) and in that case I gave them a Vistani guide for their ship.

All the lands you mention could be ported back into the Core, either on the same continental land mass, or at fixed and consistent offshore locations from it. The one land that I think would be too "alien" would be Bluetspur. Separating that from the Core as a discrete island on its own was one of the few post-Conjunction changes I actually liked from the 2nd edition shake-up.

Then again, I believe that Bluetspur should be Ravenloft's moon, so my tastes may be very different from yours

[alhoon]

I use islands as little homebrew worlds, Ravenloft oriented and actually I don't use most of the canon islands.
I.e. some of my Ravenloft campaigns have taken place mostly in an island or cluster with the PCs leaving it only for short periods of time. An island can be the PCs home so they can bond.
Not enough in scope? I use clusters. For a long time I was using a large custom made cluster about the size of the Core.

[G man]

I too have made some of the islands part of the Core. I replaced Markovia with Souragne in the Sea of Sorrows. I feels this presents more oppurtunites for plots. I also positioned Vorostokov northeast of Darkon via a mistway. Farelle has been placed southwest of Sithicus and south of Valachan and has been discovered and accessed via the Little Arden river. Paridon is a city state that has popped up on the border of Mordent and Dementlieu. Far off to the west in the Sea of Sorrows is Rokushima Taiyoo. Thanks for the good idea about Nidala. I think I will use it.

[woodsdarkman]

I always found that there were way to many islands as well. I merged all the clusters and most of the Islands of Terror into a second core and it worked really well for me. I made Vechor the eastern most point of the second core and as the lords of the original core found out about them epeditions were made to find out more. I always like the idea of a second core that was totally the opposite the original core.

[Deewun]

I have fused Farelle to the Core, and made use of the Farelle stuff from QtR.

FANTASTIC! I wrote that, ha! Hurrah!

I too use Farelle to the West of Valachan and the bottom of the Sea of Sorrows.

I've always loved Vechor, so I could never move it. I did have Vorostokov to the Northeast of Vechor, completely separated by its high mountains, but that's merely been a point of interest for me, as none of my campaigns have gone there yet. A homebrew domain is also to the south of that mass, Ickard, but again, merely my notes as a campaign hasn't traveled there.

I loved Whal from the Book of Sorrows to the FAR FAR Northwest of the Core. I love Moby Dick, and for my pirate campaign, it made a wonderful final stop. In that same campaign I used the Shining Bay Cluster, putting it to the Southeast in the Nocturnal Sea. I would have included Sourangne, but the idea that Anton was so powerful that he willed Souragne to stay in the mists always stuck with me, so I left it there.

Other than that, most places I enjoy to use that are clusters or islands I've used Mistways to get there. The one I inserted in Farelle is of tremendous use. I also created one in the mists along a certain trajectory from the Sea of Sorrows leading the the Amber Wastes, connecting to that River that goes nowhere. G'Henna is connected by Mistway to Hazlan in the south. I also joined G'Henna with the rest of the Burning Peaks, as I thought all three were pretty similar, and I think Tovag is criminally under-used in campaigns.

[Don Fernando]

I also joined G'Henna with the rest of the Burning Peaks, as I thought all three were pretty similar, and I think Tovag is criminally under-used in campaigns.

You, good sir, have rised an issue I've been wanting to ask for quite some time : The Burning Peaks. If memory serves me correctly, at the end of Die Vecna Die, the BP Cluster was no more, but I have been always wondering if Kas did not manage to scape and remains the Overlord of Tovag, and only Vecna managed to escape. Which also fuels my curiosity, do you still have the BP cluster in your campaign?

Oh and back to topic, I like the Islands, but it is also very true that players consider them to be "insignificant" since they lurk there for a limited amount of time only. However the Cluster idea is what I consider a fix to this issue, allowing to develop better adventures and longer "stays" for players. Though I do think that some islands should be attached to the core too (Zherezia and Vorostokov are my two candidates).

[Garudos Celestar]

If memory serves me correctly, at the end of Die Vecna Die, the BP Cluster was no more, but I have been always wondering if Kas did not manage to scape and remains the Overlord of Tovag, and only Vecna managed to escape.

Kas was destroyed along with the rest of cluster, but his spirit persisted as a vestige to be summoned by those pesky binders (from the Tome of Magic). I believe it was in a Dragon magazine at one point, but I don't know which issue. Of course, that's not necessarily canon within the setting, but it's a start...

[Strahdsbuddy]

I was never in love with the island idea, and have managed to incorporate many of the canon islands and those from the netbooks into two major clusters that could be considered 2nd and 3rd Cores. As noted above, the edge of Vechor instantly seemed like a good spot for a new cluster to form, and both the Amber Wastes and Steaming Lands spill east from the Cliffs of Vesanis.

In the West, the idea of the "New World" seemed like an important aspect, so domains like Mictlan, Souragne and my own domain that is based on the Carribean can be found there. (With Blaustein filling in for Tortuga-pirate haven)

Regarding Souragne, I keep reading that Misroi is somehow keeping his domain isolated int he Mists. I'm curious where this comes from, what his motivations are, and how he is actually powerful enough to pull it off. Perhaps in a separate thread.

[Rotipher of the FoS]

FWIW, I've never been convinced that a Ravenloft IoT has to be any more isolated, in terms of players' practical experience, than a village on the outskirts of some major campaign nexus like Waterdeep. Distance in-game only poses an obstacle in terms of potential trouble the PCs might encounter en route; if there's no trouble, the DM saying "You sail/ride/walk for X days, and finally reach your destination" is all it takes to get there. If the DM wants there to be trouble, conversely, delays will happen just as easily while crossing the street as while journeying over long distances.

If the DM never gives PCs a good reason to go to a particular location, that's what really makes it "isolated", whether it's on a different continent or in the house next door.

[ewancummins]

FWIW, I've never been convinced that a Ravenloft IoT has to be any more isolated, in terms of players' practical experience, than a village on the outskirts of some major campaign nexus like Waterdeep. Distance in-game only poses an obstacle in terms of potential trouble the PCs might encounter en route; if there's no trouble, the DM saying "You sail/ride/walk for X days, and finally reach your destination" is all it takes to get there. If the DM wants there to be trouble, conversely, delays will happen just as easily while crossing the street as while journeying over long distances.

If the DM never gives PCs a good reason to go to a particular location, that's what really makes it "isolated", whether it's on a different continent or in the house next door.

True, although players may not wait for the DM to give them a reason. The PCs may go places for reasons entirely their own.