Game of Thrones - the TV series

[alhoon]

Also no, I don't consider spoilers who will be in the episode but I already learned those that I had to learn. I just remember them by other names. Like "Stark", "Bastard snow", "queen", "dwarf", "weirdo son of dethroned king" etc.

Also I would like to know does the horde arrive soon or towards the end of the book?

VIEW CONTENT:

But the Queen is not blameless here either. She is after all having sex with her twin brother. But yes, at least she keeps it private.

From what I've read about royalty, that doesn't crack the top 10. Nor does throwing a boy off a tower to cover it. I was led to believe that in ancient Rome it was far from unheard of (especially mother/son).
Keeping it behind closed doors is what counts. Hence, you kill witnesses. How can a knight respect his king if he treats his wife that way? And if he blatantly admits that he's bored ruling a kingdom? In episode 3 the assistants more or less admit to the Hand that "oh well, we owe 6 millions because the king doesn't bother to check if we have the money".
I'm not saying the king is a bad person, I'm just saying... he's not fit for a king. Why he made a bid for the throne is beyond me. That blond incestous dragon family or the family of his wife would be better suited and frankly, he would be happier being a knight in their court preferably stationed in a distant town with a couple of good breweries and a brothel.

EPISODE2:

- Why are all the queen's children so blond? Besides the first one, the rest are too blond for such a dark-haired father.

I won't answer this question, but I will just say that it won't go unnoticed by other characters.

Well, when that happened in Byzantine empire (and it's recorded a couple of times), the noble/emperess in question had her child killed or others whose fortune was tied to said noblewoman had it killed. The risk of a powerful general or the emperor noticing that his children are blond like his right-hand consultant while he's not blond nor has blue eyes himself was too great. I'm pretty sure with all the wars and missing husbands that the whole of Europe was that way until 200 years or so ago.
And said noblewoman wouldn't do the same mistake so many times!
I think it's quite weird that the Lancaster twins have so many puppets of their illegal and incestous love! Didn't that woman know when she was fertile?!? Unless of course if she was sure her drunkard of a husband wouldn't notice between drinking and "####ing boars and hunting prostitutes" so she would make sure her house and line was secure in the throne.

It's also interesting how you can be led by the author to hate his house, but love him, even though he's loyal to the rest of them.

I don't hate his house, I hate two of his siblings. And it's good that he's loyal to the rest of them, it's realistic. His interests are better served with his family rather than his king and he doesn't hide that while he's on their side, he doesn't like their methods.

quote]- Ehhh... isn't there a penalty for throwing wolves on royal princes and threatening them with swords?!? For the family too?

Death of the wolf (or lacking that wolf, another wolf) seems to be the going rate. Also, death, if you're just a Butcher's Boy. Being the daughter of an allied noble house gets your sentence reduced to just the wrath of your sister's future inlaws.[/quote]
Obviously I don't talk about pesky, smelly peasant sons of nobodies.
I just haven't realised how much standing the Stark family has in the kingdom. I considered them a lesser house in control of a small, backwater and uncivilized province in the border while as episode 3 made clear, they are a powerful house in control of a large, backwater and uncivilized province in the border.

Episode 3:

To borrow from another classic work: "It's good to be the King." At least for the moment.

I'm pretty sure he's gonna die or be dethroned and soon enough.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

Also I would like to know does the horde arrive soon or towards the end of the book?

Well, I consider the answer to that question a pretty big spoiler, so read the following spoiler box at your own risk:

VIEW CONTENT:

At the end of the fourth book, they haven't arrived yet. Though the 5th book is called "A Dance with Dragons". When it comes out next month, maybe they'll be arriving. But based on the 4th book, I doubt it.

End of big spoiler from the books, on to other spoilers-from-the-show stuff we were talking about.

VIEW CONTENT:

I'm not saying the king is a bad person, I'm just saying... he's not fit for a king.

Yes, this much is clear, absolutely. I think the book says something like, he was made to win the throne, not to sit on it. He was a war hero, not a political genius, (or even political competent.)

Why he made a bid for the throne is beyond me. That blond incestous dragon family or the family of his wife would be better suited and frankly, he would be happier being a knight in their court preferably stationed in a distant town with a couple of good breweries and a brothel.

I don't think that was clear to him before he made his play for the throne, though it probably is as clear to him now as it is to you and I.

EPISODE2:

I may have already said too much, but for fear of further spoilage, I will say no more on the subject.

I don't hate his house, I hate two of his siblings.

you haven't met the rest of them yet.

I just haven't realised how much standing the Stark family has in the kingdom. I considered them a lesser house in control of a small, backwater and uncivilized province in the border while as episode 3 made clear, they are a powerful house in control of a large, backwater and uncivilized province in the border.

Yup, in fact "The North" was originally one of the seven kingdoms that became The Seven Kingdoms.

Episode 3:

I'm pretty sure he's gonna die or be dethroned and soon enough.

Indeed, at this point, I think that's the conclusion the viewer/reader is supposed to make. Whether it happens or not I won't spoil.

[alhoon]

Also I would like to know does the horde arrive soon or towards the end of the book?

Well, I consider the answer to that question a pretty big spoiler, so read the following spoiler box at your own risk:

VIEW CONTENT:

At the end of the fourth book, they haven't arrived yet. Though the 5th book is called "A Dance with Dragons". When it comes out next month, maybe they'll be arriving. But based on the 4th book, I doubt it.

VIEW CONTENT:

Then why the heck are they in the series so early?!? I don't say that this SLine isn't interesting I'm just saying it has so far nothing to do with the powerplay in the west. A rumor here and there that "they're coming" should be enough.
I bet their SLine will affect the story or else they wouldn't even be at the book, but IMO it would be better served if the episodes didn't follow chapters but they were 1-6 West 7-9 East, 10 common finale so we could watch it with some continuity.
Well, for a show it's OK and it's an interesting story. It just reminds me Perrin's - Faile story that streched through book 7-11 before it became revalent.

VIEW CONTENT:

I'm not saying the king is a bad person, I'm just saying... he's not fit for a king.

Yes, this much is clear, absolutely. I think the book says something like, he was made to win the throne, not to sit on it.
... I don't think that was clear to him before he made his play for the throne, though it probably is as clear to him now as it is to you and I.

He mentions that in episode 2, that he's not happy as a king "We didn't have a chance to be young" and his whole attitude screams "I'm not happy". When he was with his friend in Winterfell, he was a happy drunkard. When he was on the road, he was just a happy grizled rich man. When he returned to the capital, he was a brooding drunkard.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

Continued Book spoiler about the Dothraki:

VIEW CONTENT:

Then why the heck are they in the series so early?!? I don't say that this SLine isn't interesting I'm just saying it has so far nothing to do with the powerplay in the west. A rumor here and there that "they're coming" should be enough.
I bet their SLine will affect the story or else they wouldn't even be at the book, but IMO it would be better served if the episodes didn't follow chapters but they were 1-6 West 7-9 East, 10 common finale so we could watch it with some continuity.
Well, for a show it's OK and it's an interesting story. It just reminds me Perrin's - Faile story that streched through book 7-11 before it became revalent.

Yes, their storyline affects the mainline story, but never as directly as you might expect. It's a very good question as to why they show up so early, but I think of it kind of like a "cut scene". You can hear Robert and Ned talking about the "Targayen girl and her horselord husband" but it doesn't have as much impact as if you show it. It could easily be forgotten. If you see it, it becomes more real, and doesn't seem out of nowhere later. However, I do get the feeling that the author planned for them to show up sooner, it just didn't work out. He's said in interviews that he's more of a "gardener" than an "architect" when it comes to long-term plotting. He plants seeds and sees where they lead, rather than plan out everything and then build it precisely. Also, some characters from that storyline are fan-favorites, so it would make sense to keep them in the show, even this early. But even in the books, it feels almost like you could strip out all those chapters and make it a "companion" book of sorts that happens in parallel to the rest. (Like Ender's Shadow, if you're familiar with that series).

[alhoon]

Yeah, I'm not complaining. It enriches the show.

Episode 4:
When I thought I had the grasp of it, there were more characters piled up. As many bastards as medevial Europe and people I've ignored as not important are suddenly on the list. And of course the king keeps insulting the queen's honor in front of her brother. He should have at least resigned! That man seems glued to the position whatever happens and has the self-respect of a 50years old prostitute.
My guess? Unless someone kills him first, he would die by a heart attack or some other anxiety-tied sickness within 5 years at most. The heart can take only so much shame.

VIEW CONTENT:

Whether the king dies or not, whomever kills/try to kill him, there's no way the Kingslayer is keeping his job guarding his door while he purposefully brings in prostitutes to spite him just because the hours and the pay is good. He should have resigned (or challenged the king to a duel) yeeaaaars ago. Either the king has a deathwish (not impossible from what I've seen) or he's increadibly stupid.
There's only one reason Lannister would be doing this is: plotting and positioning for revenge.
Again, however stupid or suicidical the king is, I bet he keeps a sword handy and half his wits about while he is with prostitutes and has Lancaster out on watch to listen.

Also the blondie "dragonspawn" guy isn't fast taking a que is he? He's lucky his sister is patient with him and his tantrums. Nobody seems to give a rat's hairy butt about what he wants and they seem to tolerate him because of his sister alone.
Hitting the wife of that barbarian... LoL. If the horselord (or any of the Dothraki) walked in the tent right then and saw that, losing his hands would be the least of his worries. Nevermind what would happen if he gave his sister a bruise or a cut. The barbarian sees her body quite often and I doupt it would take him long to discern how his wife got a black eye or something.

What was that by the end of the episode with the queen and the Hand?!? "Let's bury the hatchet!" "Sure, nice idea!" "By the way, you're a stupid lapdog that follows orders" "And kill my enemies, namely those that call me a stupid lapdog and threaten my king" "Oh, I also kill my enemies, namely those that look too deeply on who threatens their king as you very well know by now! What a coincidence!"
Which point of view is that in the book? I would like to have the queen's PoV on that.

Also, Martin makes quite clear his opinion on aristocracy and the aristocrats in this book. 250 years ago, he would be executed for such work. Too much "well, if you were born in the right place you have it easier".
- The bastard son of the noble is an outcast in the castle. However he has it far better than the other outcasts in the nightwatch just because he happened to be a noble outcast.
- As the dwarf describes it the people of the 7 kingdoms have it better than the wildlings because they were born in the right side of the wall.
- A girl clubs the royal heir with a club and puts a sword on his neck while a peasant runs away. The girl loses her cub, the peasant his life.
- The king would have been scewered by his wife's family for the way he treats her if he didn't happen to wear the crown. Now, they happily lend him millions, kiss his butt and guard his door as he humps prostitutes.

The whole book is like a huge political statement. My grandfather would love it just for that. You see his uncle was sent to exile by our former king and himself had been chased by the royalists for much of his life; my family was pro-democracy when Greece was a kingdom. Once he told me: There's no worse luck other than being born the brother of a king. You'll have a huge mark on your back for the rest of your life and you know it by the time you're able to walk.


Also (and most important): The first mention of a magical item living characters have seen being used! Yeah! I have forgot that there was magic still in that world.


PS: I've taken your words seriously and I borrowed the book from my cousin. The episode finished and I'll read the rest from the book to find out what's next.
What I found out from the book? They use mostly the same dialogue. I found the exact place that episode 4 ends.

spoiler about the would be in episode 5:
(Which will be the best so far from what I read here)

VIEW CONTENT:

-
Cat took the dwarf squarelly. The widow of the last hand and the sister of the would-be-murdered boy? I don't think he'll find justice there. Even Stark would be more lenient.
Also (and don't give me spoiler) he seems correct: Who would give an assassin a trademark blade that half the nobles would recognise?!? Even if he did order that assassination she can't be sure.

- Tyrion, besides himself went to save Cat?!? He didn't even realize that he was going on her aid until he fell one of her attackers risking his life.
See? That's a man of honor. Jumping to save a lady-in-distress that wants you dead even if you despise her, without even realizing why you do it.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

When I thought I had the grasp of it, there were more characters piled up. As many bastards as medevial Europe and people I've ignored as not important are suddenly on the list.

LOL. told you so. A few more still to come...

And of course the king keeps insulting the queen's honor in front of her brother. He should have at least resigned!

not sure his vows give him the option of resigning. He loses honor either way.

VIEW CONTENT:

There's only one reason Lannister would be doing this is: plotting and positioning for revenge.

Consider this, though. As long as Robert's busy with prostitutes, he's not touching Cersei, and Jaime has her all to himself... It may be publicly shameful to him, but privately, the status quo has been in his interest to some extent.

What was that by the end of the episode with the queen and the Hand?!? ... Which point of view is that in the book? I would like to have the queen's PoV on that.

I'm not sure if that was in the book. It was way more confrontational than I think they were at this point, but maybe necessary for the show to accelerate things. The scene may have been cobbled together from later chapters. My copy of the book is on loan to my brother-in-law, so i can't check, but I'm pretty sure Cersei doesn't get any POV chapters up to this point, so it would be Eddard if it exists.

Also, Martin makes quite clear his opinion on aristocracy and the aristocrats in this book. 250 years ago, he would be executed for such work. Too much "well, if you were born in the right place you have it easier"..

Well, we're all shaped by our upbringing. Martin's from a working class family in New Jersey. Distrust of aristocracy is pretty much the norm for much of the U.S.

. You see his uncle was sent to exile by our former king and himself had been chased by the royalists for much of his life; my family was pro-democracy when Greece was a kingdom.

Wow... sounds like quite a history! maybe you should be writing a non-fiction book.

Also (and most important): The first mention of a magical item living characters have seen being used! Yeah! I have forgot that there was magic still in that world.

You mean the flaming sword? yeah.... sort of. There is still magic in some parts of the world, but Thoros's flaming sword was alchemical. It was just coated with a flammable substance.

PS: I've taken your words seriously and I borrowed the book from my cousin. The episode finished and I'll read the rest from the book to find out what's next.

heh... hooked you! Enjoy. Though I'm a little sad I can't see your completely unspoiled reactions to the show anymore.

VIEW CONTENT:

Also (and don't give me spoiler) he seems correct: Who would give an assassin a trademark blade that half the nobles would recognise?!? Even if he did order that assassination she can't be sure.

Yes, it's possible Cat, in her grief, didn't think that all the way through, or perhaps trusted Littlefinger too much. (Even Littlefinger says you shouldn't trust Littlefinger. I love that character, and the actor is perfect too.) If Tyrion did it, why give the assassin his own distinctive blade when a kitchen knife would do, and if someone set Tyrion up, did they expect the assassin to fail? If he succeeded, he'd have left with the dagger, no? No spoilers there, just analysis.

[alhoon]

PS: I've taken your words seriously and I borrowed the book from my cousin. The episode finished and I'll read the rest from the book to find out what's next.

heh... hooked you! Enjoy. Though I'm a little sad I can't see your completely unspoiled reactions to the show anymore.

Nah, after I read a bit of what will happen in the next episode I left the book aside. I'll read some parts on the early episodes that aren't very clear for me, but mostly I'll watch the show. If the episodes end badly, I'll read what will happen.
Truth be told, although I don't like the PoV/chapter thing it made it easier following Tyrion's SLine without getting spoilers on the others. I just skimmed what will happen later to take a taste of this SLine because it ends abruptly. I'm itching to read Sasha's SLine or read more about Tyrion's but I believe I can hold till Sunday without doing it, reading just parts of the background.

As for the Kingslayer and his personal interest on the king being... occupied. We're talking about royalty and high nobility. Pretences are everything. It's not forbidden to eat the hearts of babies if you're a king. It's forbidden for it to go public. Democracy actually is even worse since the public has a lot more say. It's not forbidden of the president to be a recovering alcoholic but if it goes public, he'll lose his job.

Hey! It's a Ravenloft forum. Take Jaquiline for example. She's good at keeping secrets. Well, she has to eat up those she loves so that they won't tell she's a monster. It's either killing the one you love or risk exposure. She choses killing the loved one.

Ivana isn't much better on that regard. She's celibate but not by choice and she has a lot of skeletons in her closet. Ivan? He's a "family man" as much as the Lannister from what I read between the lines. I'm also protective of my sister and I want the best man for her. I don't go on a killing spree.

Azalin? I doupt he would be happy if someone pinned on him the destruction of Il Aluk. "Our dedicated king was so intent to abandon us that he sent mass murderers to collect souls and then he blew up Il Aluk trying to flee our world for good. He would have considered all that a fair price for his freedom."
Do you doupt that if Azalin could, he would repeat that again, risking to blow up the whole Darkon in the process if he had his chance to leave?
Do you doupt that he would try to prevent it from becoming common knowledge?

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

here's another "family tree" graphic that might help. (Also, now that you have the book, there's a character list in the back)
http://pics.blameitonthevoices.com/s.ph ... hrones.jpg

[alhoon]

It's quite a waiting till Sunday, but I'm keeping my wits and I haven't read anymore. And to think, I'll watch it Monday evening, not Sunday.
Oh well, I''m reading WoT in the meantime and parts and pieces of the past chapters of the book.

PS. As I've expected, I still prefer WoT from GoT although I agree that GoT is a very good book with an interesting writting style. The viewpoint thing while akward at first to get used to, is refreshing and you get used to it sooner or later. It's not like the other authors haven't been using viewpoints after all, but not the same for the whole chapter. It also makes it far easier to follow the characters you're interested in.
I just happen to find the WoT story more captivating and easier to follow and I like more supernatural and magic from what GoT has. The waygates, the other worlds, a few thousand Aes Sedai, Warders, Ogiers, trollocs, dreamers, wolfbrothers... it's just a more rich world and I prefer it.
(PS when I say I prefer WoT I mean books 2,3,4,5,12A,12B. Book 8 and 10 of WoT were crappy and far worse than GoT).

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

Nah, after I read a bit of what will happen in the next episode I left the book aside. I'll read some parts on the early episodes that aren't very clear for me, but mostly I'll watch the show. If the episodes end badly, I'll read what will happen.

Now that's willpower.

Truth be told, although I don't like the PoV/chapter thing it made it easier following Tyrion's SLine without getting spoilers on the others.

It's not really all that different than many other books, including WoT. The difference is that the chapters are labelled. WoT says "Threads woven of Shadow" instead of "Matrim" at the top of the chapter, but the effect is the same. Although in GoT, the effect is sometimes more pronounced. For example, the scene where Jon visit's Bran's bedside. Cat seems really harsh to him, but the chapter is a "Jon" chapter, so it's possible it's exaggerated a bit. That's not real clear in the TV show, but I'm not sure how they could do it without being cheesy.

As for the Kingslayer and his personal interest on the king being... occupied. We're talking about royalty and high nobility. Pretences are everything.

To some extent, yes. But remember that in this world, infidelity is not the worst thing one can be caught doing. Many nobles publicly recognize their bastard children, including "paragon of honor" Ned Stark. It's a common enough practice that they even have a naming tradition for it. (noble bastards from the north are named "Snow," from the south (Dorne) "Sand" and from other places, Rivers, Stone, Storm, etc.

I'm also protective of my sister and I want the best man for her.

Same here. The difference between, you & I and Lannister is that he thinks the best man is himself.

Your Ravenloft parallels are good ones, but Ravenloft is a bit different since the Dark Powers can help keep things hush-hush if public outrage would mess up their experiment. Also, rulers (darklord or not) in Ravenloft are often even more absolute than the King of Westeros. As Cersei told Joffrey, the king can say what history is. In Darkon, he can even make you remember it that way.

It's quite a waiting till Sunday, but I'm keeping my wits and I haven't read anymore.

yeah, I have the same problem, even though I know what's going to happen.

I just happen to find the WoT story more captivating and easier to follow and I like more supernatural and magic from what GoT has. The waygates, the other worlds, a few thousand Aes Sedai, Warders, Ogiers, trollocs, dreamers, wolfbrothers... it's just a more rich world and I prefer it.

Yeah, if you like high magic, GoT isn't going to give you that fix. I don't know if I call that a richer world or not. GoT just has different kinds of richness. The history and characters feel richer to me, for example.

Spoiler for later books:

VIEW CONTENT:

Though the amount of magic does increase, it never reaches the level of WoT, FR, Eberron, etc. It barely reaches Ravenloft level

[alhoon]

Willpower... I slept 10 hours Friday night to Saturday and I'll sleep 10-12 hours today to pass the time. Then, Monday I'll go to my lab early and leave late so I can kill much time. Reading what would happen just increased my anxiety, since I think the following episode would be one of the best. The most difficult part actually isn't reading further in Tyrion's story but not reading the other SLines. Although they've ended well the knowledge that "what happens next" is a couple of feet from me is ... tempting. There are many things I want to know.

PS. WoT is by far not high magic. Salvatore's books are high magic. I agree that GoT has a different kind of richness (and that chars are richer) and I'm glad it was brought to my attention. There's no way I'll wait a year to read the following books.
I'll buy the 5th book once it comes out to gift by cousin and I'll borrow it when I reach that book.

[brass]

I thinks it was slightly too packed in the first episode, just to end on that particular part. But it's really got into it's stride from episodes 3 and 4.

[alhoon]

Waiting for episode 5:
I was thinking about the King. Robert actually doesn't seem to be a bad person. Rough along the edges (well, more than edges actually) but a man I would trust in a battle to be beside me and that when he said "I promise..." I would actually continue listening.
If he was an innkeeper I believe he would do a fine job and if he was a minor lord with say 15 soldiers in his retinue charged with small fief fighting bandits and wolves he would be happier.

It's quite obvious he doesn't want the crown anymore and he doesn't show any respect to it. Truth be told, if I had fought in a civil war losing friends, killing friends, risking my neck, bleeding for this man to take the crown I would be frustrated to enraged the way he treated my sacrifice. Robert should understand that since he asked tens of thousands of people to fight for him breaking oaths to follow, he can't just say "ooops. The job sucks after all. I just want the hand to deal with everything while I hump chicks and drink". That's not the reason people supported him instead of say another canditate.



EDIT:
Watched! ! !

VIEW CONTENT:

1. The fight was far worse than the book. The significance of it was next to lost in the episode. Swing and miss I'd say.
2. Perhaps I remember things wrong since I read parts haphazardly but I think the thing with Arya in the dungeons was different.
3. OMG the scene with Robert and Celcei! Even when half-sober he knows war far better than those brown-nosers that surround him and he understands the pit they're all in. Of course Celcei shows an astute understanding of politics and what actually holds the kingdom together. Also I haven't read about that scene (yet, I intend to do) but when Robert said "no" to the Queen it seemed like the sound of his coffin closing.
4. Ned's respect for the king seemed to take a doooownward spiral quite fast. What the king said about the unborn son was true; he presented a great threat dishonorable or not. Not to mention that you don't spit in the king's face in front of all his councelors. Wise thing to do when you know your wife abducted the brother of the Queen. As wise as saying to a host of armed soldiers and the brother(+) of the queen that you abducted their lord and intend to kill him, without proof. Way to plunge a kingdom in a civil war.

Of course the episode ends badly (again) and now I've to read that part too and see what will happen with the king. I doupt if he can count the knives poised at his back. I bet when he rises in the night to go relieve himself he fumbles over assassins fighting outside his chambers for the honor of killing him.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

I was thinking about the King. Robert actually doesn't seem to be a bad person. Rough along the edges (well, more than edges actually) but a man I would trust in a battle to be beside me and that when he said "I promise..." I would actually continue listening.

Did this come through from the show, or from your reading of the book? I felt that way as well after reading the book, but for the most part, was a bit disappointed that that aspect wasn't shown too much in the show.

VIEW CONTENT:

1. The fight was far worse than the book. The significance of it was next to lost in the episode. Swing and miss I'd say.

My book is lent out, so I can't compare, but I thought the significance was pretty well conveyed. The actual swordplay was a bit on the boring side, (though maybe that's more realistic that we usually see in movies) but the emotional aspect I thought was spot on.

2. Perhaps I remember things wrong since I read parts haphazardly but I think the thing with Arya in the dungeons was different.

A bit. for one thing, the identities of the two men were not clear right away. In the show, it was obvious.

3. OMG the scene with Robert and Celcei! Even when half-sober he knows war far better than those brown-nosers that surround him and he understands the pit they're all in. Of course Celcei shows an astute understanding of politics and what actually holds the kingdom together. Also I haven't read about that scene (yet, I intend to do) but when Robert said "no" to the Queen it seemed like the sound of his coffin closing.

I thought this was a great scene as well, but don't bother looking for it in the book. I'm pretty sure it was added for the show (maybe with some lines pulled from other scenes), but it did a lot to remedy what I mentioned earlier in this post, about Robert's good qualities not being shown. The irony is that while he makes a really crappy peacetime king, he might have made a halfway decent wartime king. If the Dothraki and Targaryens would just invade already, he might have had the opportunity to show it.

4. Ned's respect for the king seemed to take a doooownward spiral quite fast.

Well, since the king reached Winterfell, Ned's seen constant examples of why he isn't the man he remembered. It had to sink in eventually.

What the king said about the unborn son was true; he presented a great threat dishonorable or not. Not to mention that you don't spit in the king's face in front of all his councelors.

It's quite clear that both Ned and Cat are in waaaaay over their heads. They are both more used to straightforward action than scheming. (Though in the book Cat is a bit more intrigue-savvy) Ned still seems to think he can make a difference as Hand, and not become like the rest of the council, who are outwardly yes-man, but nearly all plotting something behind the king's back. But the king is too used to hearing people agree with him, and won't stand for Ned's backtalk. Meanwhile, Cat still thinks Ned is in favor with the King, and that justice for her son will prevail, even if the queen's unloved brother is the culprit. Both Starks made some dreadful choices these past two episodes, but both fitting with their characters. And now that the fire's been set, things are going to get really interesting...

I bet when he rises in the night to go relieve himself he fumbles over assassins fighting outside his chambers for the honor of killing him.

LOL!

[alhoon]

Did this come through from the show, or from your reading of the book? I felt that way as well after reading the book, but for the most part, was a bit disappointed that that aspect wasn't shown too much in the show.

Both actually, although in the book it's clearer.

VIEW CONTENT:

1. The fight was far worse than the book. The significance of it was next to lost in the episode. Swing and miss I'd say.

My book is lent out, so I can't compare, but I thought the significance was pretty well conveyed. The actual swordplay was a bit on the boring side, (though maybe that's more realistic that we usually see in movies) but the emotional aspect I thought was spot on.

It seemed far more grandiose in the book, with Catellyn deciding to arm Tyrion and then him fighting to save her. The dwarf looking the horses conveyed that he could leave but decided to stay but it's not the same as him getting out of cover and rushing to save his abductor from 3 bandits.

A bit. for one thing, the identities of the two men were not clear right away. In the show, it was obvious.

Then I was stupid because I don't know who they were.

4. Ned's respect for the king seemed to take a doooownward spiral quite fast.

Well, since the king reached Winterfell, Ned's seen constant examples of why he isn't the man he remembered. It had to sink in eventually.

1 month IMO is too fast, considering he has heard/expected much of it.

They are both more used to straightforward action than scheming. (Though in the book Cat is a bit more intrigue-savvy) Meanwhile, Cat still thinks Ned is in favor with the King, and that justice for her son will prevail, even if the queen's unloved brother is the culprit. Both Starks made some dreadful choices these past two episodes, but both fitting with their characters. And now that the fire's been set, things are going to get really interesting...

Cat is quite more intrigue savvy in the book. In the show she's not. The part where she outsmarts the imp was there but again, it was 5 seconds vs me reading Tyrion lamenting that for 2 pages.
I'll not read her storyline, I'll read Ned's. (if I can help it)

PS. Robert is one of my favorites in the show. Too bad I don't see him sticking around for long.

Question: In the book Arya after she inquires about the number of soldiers the Starks and Lannisters have, she asks "what if the Lannisters send a wizard to kill him?"
Is that childish fantasy or there are wizards in the employment of high nobles?

Also what I think should defenitely be in the episode is the scene with the sycophants of the king arguing about the price of "the faceless men" when discussing murder as Stark was leaving. Shows their character (and again G.Martin's opinion on nobility; really my grandfather would love it a pity he can't read anymore).


The aftermath of the scene is also far better explained in the book, and reading it helps the consequences of the quarrel sink in.
Since you don't have the book with you:

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- Stark thinks that the king wouldn't really go after him once he cools off and then realizes that Robert's hate for the Tagaryen's is still raging 15 (17 for the movie) years later.
- Also he remembers that "OMG. In his blind rage he will learn that my wife abducted the dwarf. He may not do anything about it but he will certainly not go out of his way to stop the queen"
- He plans on having another son. What's this with G.Martin and after-fight sex? I bet he has staged fights with his wife just for the "make-up sex" afterwards.
- He is angry that he hasn't pieced together what happened to the last hand and he is still loyal to the realm and to an extend to Robert and doesn't want to see it go bankrupt (or sold to Lannisters). In the book the quarrel seems more a quarrel between friends than a breaking-up. Hard words traded but at least from Ed's stance he would still run over to his king's banner in need. From what I've seen from Robert, after he chills off he would also be a friend that respects Stark but (unlike what the show led me to believe) he won't let it go by, from Robert's side refusing to hunt down Tagaryen's is a deal-breaker. His feelings for Stark will certainly take a step back.
- He ponders returning to winterfell by sea to speak with Stannis Baratheon.
- Stark insults Littlefinger when he gets in. For no reason besides he's angry.
- The word treason wasn't mentioned although the show said it was! ! !
- Littlefinger informs him that they won't hire professional assassins but they would grant a title ( ) to whomever kills the girl and boy. Stark obviously as any reasonable human being feels aghast that they're offering titles to assassins.
- Little finger exlains to Stark that that was for her own good, since the attempt would be botched so then the Dothraki would be on their guard. How exactly he seems to think that adding treason in makes sending assassins after her better just because you've arranged them to propably fail it's beyond me. I'll ask Leo Disilnya.

Back to episode:
The Eyrie didn't seem in the book as in the movie. And I miss those majestic sights from there.
It seems far more... real in the book. Up a steep cliff with a hard climb not beyond a natural bridge but a natural formation. PS. How they managed to build 3 forts (stone, snow, sky) + a keep on top of that with just stairs and mules is beyond me though. It should have taken a century.
I also miss Cat's uncle. Awesome guy. Since G.Martin is too pre-occupied to make nobility bad and intent to smear them I bet he has some bad skeletons hidden in his closet, but as far as nobles goes in this book, I like him.

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And the show misses Catelyn's understanding of loyalties in her retinue.

Questions: What office do they talk about in the book? That the Arryns held for 300 years and Jaime Lannister got? Warden of the East?

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Did the uncle warned Cat for the Lannisters and their involvement in Jon Aryn's death instead of his niece?