Game of Thrones - the TV series

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

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It seemed far more grandiose in the book, with Catellyn deciding to arm Tyrion and then him fighting to save her. The dwarf looking the horses conveyed that he could leave but decided to stay but it's not the same as him getting out of cover and rushing to save his abductor from 3 bandits.

Oh, that fight! I thought you meant the Ned/Jaime fight. Yeah, the hill tribe fight was a little disappointing, especially since the hill folk didn't seem as ragged and savage as I'd expected.

Then I was stupid because I don't know who they were.

Well, it was dark, and I suppose it depends on the size and quality of your TV, but they were...

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Varys and Illyrio, as noted by Littlefinger later in his scene of one-up-ing with Varys. (Also a great scene, and also not in the book.) He says something about a meeting with "foreign gentleman" from across the narrow sea.

PS. Robert is one of my favorites in the show.

heh... I wouldn't have expected that for all the hard time you've been giving him in this thread.

Question: In the book Arya after she inquires about the number of soldiers the Starks and Lannisters have, she asks "what if the Lannisters send a wizard to kill him?"
Is that childish fantasy or there are wizards in the employment of high nobles?

I don't have the book to hand, but I believe she was misinterpreting something she overhead of the two men talking. The line was cut for the show, both in the eavesdropping scene, and in her repetition of it to Ned. Ned dismisses it as childish fantasy, making him less inclined to believe her. (also, she's younger in the book.) In the show, he seems to take her more seriously. Wizards in the employ of nobles is certainly not standard, though it could be remotely possible. Everything about magic is very vague at this point in the story, and you're not supposed to be sure whether to believe it or not. Remember that thus far the only truly supernatural stuff we've seen are the Whitewalkers beyond the wall (and few believe that as more than a ghost story) and the skulls and fossilized eggs of extinct dragons. (One of Viserys's bathtub tales mentioned a man who could change his face, but who knows if he made that up to impress the sex slave or not?).

Also what I think should defenitely be in the episode is the scene with the sycophants of the king arguing about the price of "the faceless men" when discussing murder as Stark was leaving. Shows their character (and again G.Martin's opinion on nobility; really my grandfather would love it a pity he can't read anymore).

sadly, I don't remember that one, but i'm sure it was good. they just can't fit everything in 10 episodes, even if they didn't add new scenes. I share the author's hope that later seasons are longer. The books themselves get longer too, so it's almost required, if they continue with 1 book=1 season.

[alhoon]

Psst. I've edited before my post about the book as I kept reading. I haven't noticed you answered.
I've included a small synopsis of what happened later that's out of the show.

Yes, I've noticed the children are younger in the book, but that doesn't make sense. Arya acts more like a smart 9-10 years old than a 7 years old. Also, in the book, she doesn't mention wizards to Ned but to his bodyguard.

NOTE: The book is different (and again better) in the Cat-Lysa re-union. I get the feeling that Lysa isn't bat crazy as she seems in the show but a desperate, griefstriken woman with only a sickly child to show from 5 pregnacies and a dead husband. And this time, the 6-years-old instead of 10years old as in the show fits better.

From the book I also see that Sansa spends a lot of time with Joffrey and she seems dazzled by the glamour.

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In the King's place, I would make that foolish heir the Hand of the King. It would ease him into leadership, give him some experience, prepare him for the throne and let him know what's going on in the council and how things are done. It would also be good since Robert could keep an eye on how his son so he just turns up 85% Lannister instead of 100%. He's supposedly Robert's son and heir, he should take more hand on his training. Joffrey is old enough to start taking some responsibility and it would be a good excuse to keep him out of his mother's clutches and whispering for many hours/day. It would also give the King some time to spend in the council and with his son, a flock of birds with one stone.

About the fight you say... it wasn't in the book. I prefered the show's version there.

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Jaime just ordered Stark's guards killed and left, then Ed fell from his horse violently and broke his leg, the bone coming out through the calf

[alhoon]

I was wrong about Robert and Ned.

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There's real friendship there. They have disagreed, they're angry at each other but Robert was worried about Ned's health.
Robert have hit Cersei but he regrets it. It was the wine that had him strike a woman.

Also the following:
"Why would you want me as your hand if you refuse to take my counsel?"
"Why?" ... "Put on the badge Ned. It suits you. And if you ever throw it in my face again, I swear to you, I'll pin the damned thing on Jaime Lannister."
Far more effective a threat than "I'll have your head on a spike"

However, Robert and Cersei had their reasons to be angry. It's true that the responsible for keeping the King's peace was 1. abducting brothers of the queen 2. starting armed fights with 8 dead 3. driven of the other brother of the queen.
Robert was just. It should stop then and there and actually Ed should apologize to Cersei, Jaime and the father Lannister. OK, since the later wouldn't ever happen, he should just order the release of Tyrion. Truth be told, the Lannisters have lost 5 men while the Starks lost 3. And Starks abducted Tyrion without proof of guilt.
And Queen > Hand. Something that Robert seems to miss altogether.

And what was that talk about the bastards and their names in front of the Queen?!?
PS. I refuse to admit that Robert was a pedophile. He's an honorable even if rough man. Impregnating a 13-14 year's old prostitute?!? just doesn't add up to Robert and I think G.R.Martin was mistaken to do that.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

The aftermath of the scene is also far better explained in the book, and reading it helps the consequences of the quarrel sink in.
Since you don't have the book with you:

thanks, and yes I agree that it was better explained in the book, but books tend to be good at explaining things. It's funny, in my foggy memories of the book (I read it 4 years ago), the show is very very close to the book. But you keep reminding me of small differences, subtle changes, or missing things, so maybe it's not as close as I thought.

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What's this with G.Martin and after-fight sex? I bet he has staged fights with his wife just for the "make-up sex" afterwards.

Well, the man likes sex. Before fights, after fights, during fights. Whenever. You should see his Wild Cards books (really, you should, they are great). There's a super-hero that has super-tantric-sex-powers. No joke.

In the book the quarrel seems more a quarrel between friends than a breaking-up. Hard words traded but at least from Ed's stance he would still run over to his king's banner in need.

Yeah, I expect they will reconcile similarly in the show once Robert cools off. Things probably need to be heightened to make good TV/film. A disagreement isn't as exciting to film and act as an argument. Similarly, I see now from refreshing my memory online, the Ned/Jaime fight was made more "hero oriented" In the book, Jaime left his goons to do the job. On film, everyone wants to see the duel they've been waiting for.

Back to episode:
The Eyrie didn't seem in the book as in the movie. And I miss those majestic sights from there.
It seems far more... real in the book.

Agreed. What we got in the show was cool, but it wasn't what I expected/hoped for. I also seem to remember the Sky Cells being quite a lot smaller, no?

How they managed to build 3 forts (stone, snow, sky) + a keep on top of that with just stairs and mules is beyond me though. It should have taken a century.

or magic. Same with the Wall. There are rumors in the book that magic was used to build the Wall. I'd be surprised if the Eyrie didn't have similar rumors (true or not).

I also miss Cat's uncle. Awesome guy.

Oh yeah, I forgot all about him. Didn't notice his absence. I guess some characters need to be cut. one of the major complaints I've seen online is that 50+ characters in 5 episodes is overwhelming, so someone had to go. Cool as the Blackfish is, he's cuttable here.

Questions: What office do they talk about in the book? That the Arryns held for 300 years and Jaime Lannister got? Warden of the East?

Yup, that's pretty much it. The Warden is supposed to keep the peace in his area, but is mostly ceremonial. Stark is Warden of the North. Presumably there are at least 2 more Wardens too. Robert's excuse was that the boy is too sickly to be a Warden, but I doubt Cersei and/or her father weren't involved in the decision.

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Did the uncle warned Cat for the Lannisters and their involvement in Jon Aryn's death instead of his niece?

nope. According to my memory, and confirmed in a book recap I found online, it was still Lysa. NOTE: Do not go looking for this recap site. The next several chapters/episodes will be far better if you read/view them yourself, IMHO.

I was wrong about Robert and Ned.

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There's real friendship there.

Yup. it wasn't just honor that made Ned take the job. They were raised nearly as brothers, and the friendship is there. I think that was shown well in the show, too, since Ned is sometimes the only one who can tell Robert when he's being a fool. (like the breastplate incident.)

Robert have hit Cersei but he regrets it. It was the wine that had him strike a woman.

I do not in any way condone hitting women. But for Cersei I might make an exception.

PS. I refuse to admit that Robert was a pedophile. He's an honorable even if rough man. Impregnating a 13-14 year's old prostitute?!? just doesn't add up to Robert and I think G.R.Martin was mistaken to do that.

Eh... I agree it's icky, but Martin was trying to make things realistically medieval. Henry IV married a 12 year old, for example. Technically, it's not pedophilia, it's ephebophilia (it's a real word). no less icky to modern eyes, but even in today's world, some places consider a girl who's hit puberty to be an adult, whether she's mentally matured or not.

Sansa really wants to marry Joffrey

yeah. This is one minor disappointment I have with the show. Sansa doesn't seem as thrilled with Joffrey after the wolf incident, while in the book she continued to overlook/rationalize his jerkishness.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

Dude, you're reading too fast. I can't keep up with the commentary.

[alhoon]

About Sansa, Starks and Lannisters:
Sansa really wants to marry Joffrey. If that does happen, even if they're betrothed, then Ed would see his dear daughter in Lannister hands. Bringing Jaime into close family and having to defend the queen's honor after that.
No wonder that he doesn't like the idea.

Chapter 45 OMG. Ned speaks privately with the Queen in the gardens. You 99% remember the thing. How long is that away? 2 weeks? I've figured by the time you said

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"they notice that their children are blond".

but that wasn't the surprise. The big surprise is that Ed confronted her alone, unarmed and wounded.

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-And he plans to tell the king?!? That's what his approach on the matter? Chances are he will be executed. On the other hand, what could he do?
- The perversion of it when she explains, no remorse, to Stark of her incestous relation to her brother it made me cringe. More shocking than when I saw them together in episode 1.
- We don't care how you give pleasure to your hubby Cersei, thank you very much. There's something called "too much information". Any decent woman would have stopped "he hasn't been in me in years". Of course any decent woman would have told straight faced that she felt whole only when her bro was inside her, nor that she had an abortion so she would bear children only from her brother.
One thing's for sure: I would hate to play poker with that woman. Perhaps that's the secret of the Lannister's money.

And of course... she plays the honor card after she fails to seduce Ed. The woman is insane.

Ed is also stupid. The only way no left open for the Lannisters (relinquish their power and leave? LoL) is to hold a damoclean sword over the Starks to keep them in line while they kill Robert. Killing Ed would propably be not far down the list.
Cersei more or less admited they were waiting for Jof to reach the age needed to take the throne. Now they have to act before the King returns from the woods or lose it all.
Too bad for them they've no loyal to them people near him now since they've all just returned. All 20 of them.

Chapter 47:

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A boar?!? The Lannisters didn't have a chance to take him out and his own stupidity (yeah, it was clear he had a deathwish) does the trick for them?!
Robert seems quite resigned to his fate. It was obvious he didn't like his life.

And from his deathbed? He admits it was a mistake to go after the girl and regrets it. I knew he was a good man.

And obviously Stark couldn't tell him in his deathbed that his children were Jaime's. Thankfully that thing about the bastards of the king took him off the hook. A pity. I liked Robert.

Dude, you're reading too fast. I can't keep up with the commentary.

I'm reading Ed's chapters now. Just Ed (and one of Sansa). I've jumped many chapters.
Also keep in mind: this is a forum. The comments will be here tomorrow too.

Anyway... more of G.Martin's high esteem for nobles:

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BEFORE the king is dead, within minutes that he declared Ned the reagent... Renly, the master of laws suggests abducting the heir and future king and holding the rest as hostages.
It's not "the King's bed isn't cold yet" it's... "the king is still alive but dying, let's abduct his heir"

OK Cersei is bat-crazy and perverted. What's his excuse ?!?

Question:

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King dead, heir 12 years old / not-actually-king's-son. 2 brothers of the king...
The way I see it, it could well be Regent+one bro vs Lannisters vs Tagaryen horde + other claimants (perhaps the other bro). With winter coming soon.

After littlefinger suggests Ned keep the secret marry his daughters to Robert's "children" and then if Jof doesn't follow Ned's lead, depose the rightful king within those 4 years and then expose Jof as Jaime's bastard. Because that's what everyone would wagger Eddard Stark would do afterall. Anyway, after that:
"Lord Baelish, what you suggest is treason."
"Only if we lose."

Chapter 50 (Arya)

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A girl 8-9 years old ran a stable boy through with the sword?!? How strong was she? The blade came in through the belly and came out through his shoulderblades!
Not to mention that little girls propably panic after they kill a boy with a sword so they can't think "hmm, the gates will be closed and guarded, I should go out a tunnel".
Not very realistic that part.

Chapter 57(Sansa)

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Lol, half the council is Lannisters now. Also the influence of Lannisters is quite upgraded since Joff took the throne. He's supposed to be Baratheon, but all his uncles are considered traitors and I can't see a single Baratheon on the council or a single Baratheon guard.
Also Jof seemed to want to listen what Sansa had to say and most importantly ... he didn't have a clue why Ned said he's not the king.
Unwittingly, Sansa gave another opportunity for victory to the Lannisters. If they show mercy to Ned and he spits in their face, then there will be no doupts as to who is the "bad guy" in this case in the minds of the people. While in the North they would support their lord, most other minor lords and houses throughout the kingdom would side with Joff.
If Ed says "OK, sorry." then they've landed the rebellion a blow.

Chapter 67 (Sansa)

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All this rage festering in a teenager... she'll became as spiteful as Cersei even if her upbringing won't let her do things so vile. She won't turn out a good queen.
Also as vile as Sansa seems Joffrey to be, he's not that bad or unjust. A bit bloodthirsty and crude but mostly not much over the top.
- two knights with a land dispute => duel to the death
- thief => hand comes of in court (the break of custom was that it happened in the palace)
- bard that was singing about a pig fighting and killing the king which in many verses seemed to be equating the pig with the queen => he could choose to keep either fingers or tongue.
- wife of a beheaded traitor asking to bury him properly, saying she still loves him => to the dungeon.

Of course the way he treats Sansa is unbearable.
"I'll get you with a child as soon as you're able. If the first one is stupid, I'll chop off your head and find a smarter wife. When do you think you'll be able to have children?

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

Chapter 45 OMG. Ned speaks privately with the Queen in the gardens. You 99% remember the thing. How long is that away? 2 weeks?

Yeah, I'd guess episode 7 or so.

I've figured by the time you said

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"they notice that their children are blond".

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Yeah, I tried not to give away the answer, sorry if it spoiled things, but it seems most people online have guessed it too by this point in the show. It's much more noticeable when you see them next to each other week after week than a few mentions of hair color once every few chapters

but that wasn't the surprise. The big surprise is that Ed confronted her alone, unarmed and wounded.

Yup, he's just that honorable/trusting/foolish.

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nor that she had an abortion so she would bear children only from her brother.

Yeah, I wonder how this will play out in the show. Obviously they've changed things, since in the show she claims to have had a live-born child that looked like Robert, and it seems confirmed to be true in the recent convo with Robert. Did TV-Cersei really still see a chance a love at that point? Or did she escalate over Book-Cersei with infanticide instead of an abortion? We'll probably have to wait for this scene in the show to know whether they really softened her for TV by giving her some feelings for Robert early on and a true tragedy with her lost firstborn, or made her even more despicable by having her kill that firstborn.

Ed is also stupid.

The alignment "Lawful Stupid" does seem to apply to him sometimes, does it not?

Chapter 47:

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A boar?!? The Lannisters didn't have a chance to take him out and his own stupidity (yeah, it was clear he had a deathwish) does the trick for them?!

Well, the Lannisters weren't blameless. I trust you read the rest of the chapter? According to my recap site, Varys reveals that Lancel Lannister made certain the king was good and drunk before fighting the boar.

In fact, this gets elaborated in a later book. Minor Spoiler for Chapter 4 of Book 2:

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Someone (I won't say who) reveals that Cersei also made sure the wine Lancel was pouring was three times as strong as his usual drink.

I'm reading Ed's chapters now. Just Ed (and one of Sansa). I've jumped many chapters.

that's gotta be a weird way to read it, but I can see how not knowing what happens next could drive you to follow a plotline forward.

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Renly, .... What's his excuse ?!?

I suppose he suspects the Lannisters in his brothers impending death, though I don't recall how much Ned or Varys had told him at this point.

Question:

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King dead, heir 12 years old / not-actually-king's-son. 2 brothers of the king...
The way I see it, it could well be Regent+one bro vs Lannisters vs Tagaryen horde + other claimants (perhaps the other bro). With winter coming soon.

That's not really a question, but you see it pretty well. The second book is after all, called "A Clash of Kings". The "Game of Thrones" is afoot.

Because that's what everyone would wagger Eddard Stark would do afterall.

I think Petyr remains optimistic about eventually "corrupting" Stark to his methods.

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Anyway, after that:
"Lord Baelish, what you suggest is treason."
"Only if we lose."

Great line, and it was in the preview for the rest of the season after last episode. Delivered perfectly by both actor.

Chapter 50 (Arya)

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A girl 8-9 years old ran a stable boy through with the sword?!? How strong was she? The blade came in through the belly and came out through his shoulderblades!

Well, it is a very sharp, well made, and pointy sword. The belly is not a very tough place to pierce, I'd imagine. No bones to speak of. The stableboy was unarmored. If she went up and through and between the back ribs? maybe?

Chapter 67 (Sansa)

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Also as vile as Sansa seems Joffrey to be, he's not that bad or unjust. A bit bloodthirsty and crude but mostly not much over the top....

I'm curious how much you skipped here, because he does something particularly cruel in chapter 65.

[alhoon]

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We'll probably have to wait for this scene in the show to know whether they really softened her for TV by giving her some feelings for Robert early on and a true tragedy with her lost firstborn, or made her even more despicable by having her kill that firstborn.

I think the later, or it won't be mentioned at all. Perhaps since they play the "I had feelings for you long, long ago, I was a kind-of-perverted-Sasha" they will get that road, but from what I've gathered by royal politics and civil wars... it's the later with no laments at all.

Chapter 47:

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A boar?!?

Well, the Lannisters weren't blameless. I trust you read the rest of the chapter? According to my recap site, Varys reveals that Lancel Lannister made certain the king was good and drunk before fighting the boar.

By the time you wrote this, yes. Also besides that chapter 4 in book 2, Varys reveals it in the book that the wine the king liked was extra strong. Ed almost vomits it out when he tastes it. But no, it's Robert's own stupidity. He knew he was getting drunk and kept drinking. More than one flask and while he realised he had trouble staying on the stable he ordered his guards to stay aside to kill the boar himself. His own words.
Varys said the Lanisters hoped that he would fall from his horse or something. It's was a desperate 10% chance... except that Robert thought it would be fun to hunt boars while he had trouble standing.
Also Robert 99% understood that his favorite wine was extra strong and said "wow! cooool!" (IMO, it wasn't. I think his favorite wine was just extra strong, far more than usual wine). As for the "cool stuff, we should get more"... after all, Robert was "chaotic stupid".

I'm reading Ed's chapters now. Just Ed (and one of Sansa). I've jumped many chapters.

that's gotta be a weird way to read it, but I can see how not knowing what happens next could drive you to follow a plotline forward.

Actually, no. I read somewhere that G. Martin didn't wrote them in order but followed plotlines and then reviewed to make sure they were connected.
Also NOT reading the whole thing makes sure I don't know what happens in 60% of the remaining show, besides what rumors of the doings of othes those chars I read (Ned, Sansa, Arya) are in their chapters. I've finished their chapters BTW.

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Renly, .... What's his excuse ?!?

I suppose he suspects the Lannisters in his brothers impending death, though I don't recall how much Ned or Varys had told him at this point.

He was present when Robert told them he would make Ned his regeant till Jof is older, instead of his wife, instead of making Jof the king. He propably suspected Lannisters in his own impeding death to be sincere. He shouldn't have acted that way though. He should have fled if he didn't want to get in the impeding fight, but abducting the future king is just too treacherous to think, when the king isn't actually dead yet.

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Because that's what everyone would wagger Eddard Stark would do afterall.

I think Petyr remains optimistic about eventually "corrupting" Stark to his methods.

Nah, from what I gathered from the rest of the chapter, when he betrayed him, he just wanted him a chance before turning him over. It was quite easy to guess that move from littlefinger. He had much to lose (perhaps even head if he stepped badly) if Stannis became king instead of Jof, and the plan to control the future king wasn't bad. At least Jof was young and predictable. Stannis is described as a hard, no-nonsense man. He would take hold of the council and he may found certain amounts of gold in the treasury (Littlefinger was in charge of the money) not adding up. That would propably be exile or death for Littlefinger.

Chapter 67 (Sansa)

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Also as vile as Sansa seems Joffrey to be, he's not that bad or unjust. A bit bloodthirsty and crude but mostly not much over the top....

I'm curious how much you skipped here, because he does something particularly cruel in chapter 65.

No, he does the most sensible thing a fresh king would do to someone that without any reason came to him and told him "You're not the king, your uncle is. I give you the chance to flee for your life".
Remember, Jof was shocked when he heard that. At first he though Stark said it out of spite and because he didn't like Lannisters and then ... he was worried that Ned may have a reason to challenge him. Jof is not a fool he propably guessed that Ned had a reason to challenge his rule setting aside his father's wishes.
As I said, I don't think Ned's approach on the matter was the right one. It would certainly lead to a civil war and was against his friend's last wish. Sure technically Jof wasn't related to the king. Good luck proving it, even if the Lannisters were gone.
Even I would have Ned executed after he admited his "treason". It was the only way to deal with it. And let's not forget that Ned wasn't actually surprised when it was proclaimed. Sansa was. Ned had told Varys that he did it only for his children and Jof/Cersei kept their word. Sansa was unharmed.
What a stupid girl Sansa. Cersei is right to be worried that her children will be stupid.
And truth be told... Sansa and Arya should have also been captured and held as hostages with an army of Northmen approaching and Tyrion... well, I don't know if Tyrion's still captured but he's not mentioned in the book so I guess he hasn't returned.

The royals of England (before the 2 roses) had their sons executed for such things. The Lionheart waged war with his brother because he didn't accept him as the heir and told his father "I don't give a dime who you think should be the heir, after you die, I take the crown." and so they all fought. At a point there were 3 brothers and the father fighting for who would be the heir...
And you tell me that killing the enemy of your house that has tried to remove you from throne minutes after you took it is cruel?

About the standards on which we both judge royalty as "cruel", "evil" or "perverted"

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I think I know why we have different take on that. You seem to judge royalty and nobility by the modern, just, everyone's equal standards. By that standards, Jof should have pardoned Ned.
But then he would have a reputation of weakness and him being a kid, he would be thought as a pushover. Everyone would challenge his decrees and even his right to the throne.
Better a 2 to 3 way civil war than a hundred small wars with knight X of your own retinue taking his 30 men and attacking the fief of knight Y, again of your retinue giving the king the finger. That would be anarchy for decades.
Also think with the morals of that age, where King was law and all. There was no bigger treachery than trying to taking him off his throne IMO.
Also let's think of enlighted fantasy rulers, say King Arthur and Lancelot. The infidelity of his wife with Lancelot was considered a heineous offense against the crown, unspeakable treachery etc etc etc. I don't remember what actually happened in Arthur's story but I seem to remember that it was considered high treason whether Lancelot was sentensed or not.
And Lancelot just betrayed (a lot) the king's trust. He didn't tell him "Arthur, you're not the king you're an usurper that picked out a sword from a rock. A guy in Ireland is the King."

Under such a light, do you really think Jof had any other choice? Do you think Ned would have spared someone that walked to King Robert and told him "You're a fat drunkard, you should abdicate in favor of Stannis"? Robert (being chaotic) may have spared him. Ned wouldn't.

Without giving spoilers about Wheel of time, let's just say a Saldaean is offended when someone suggests he should ask pardon for doing the right thing besides his lord's wishes. He says "It's my right to demand my execution". That's the borderlander take on such matters, Like Ned's. A Cairhiening or Tairhen though would think and act... like everybody else in the book actually.
Queen Morgase (Elayne's mother), by all accounts a good queen, next-to-sentenced Thom Merrilin to death because as her lover, he didn't spend enough time with her, seeking revenge/justice for his nephew.

And the most important thing of all: A king that talks to his horse and listens to voices nobody else does, isn't a loon. He's eccentric.

BTW: I don't say Jof is a good boy. I just say that the average king is as much an a####le and even the most noble monarch would have executed the usurper, because noble=/being good. G.Martin does his best again to convince us that royalty as it is festers snakes and monsters and nobles have little choice but to turn to sin and corruption and if they have a conciense, they just become alcoholics (like Robert) and bad kings (like Robert again).

[Le Noir Faineant]

Watched the first episodes, and can say that I am very fond of the series so far.

Other than the specific content, or the weaknesses of Martin's books (IMO there are many),
it's nice to see that the fantasy genre finally is getting a treatment on TV that is not outright embarassing.

I mean, compare the series to 2006's Robin Hood, Legend of the Seeker, or, my goodness, XENA:

It's a milestone, and I hope it leads to more, similar stuff being produced.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

Also NOT reading the whole thing makes sure I don't know what happens in 60% of the remaining show, besides what rumors of the doings of othes those chars I read (Ned, Sansa, Arya) are in their chapters. I've finished their chapters BTW.

minor and vague spoiler regarding the structure of a later book:

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Ah, so you'll be all prepared for book 4. There was some fan outcry because some favorite characters don't appear at all in book 4. Their parts got pushed to book 5. So if you read those books in order, you'll go a long time without hearing from certain characters except as rumor.

On Littlefinger:

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I think Petyr remains optimistic about eventually "corrupting" Stark to his methods.

Nah, from what I gathered from the rest of the chapter, when he betrayed him, he just wanted him a chance before turning him over.

The way I see Littlefinger is that he's always playing the "long game". He's always putting out feelers to see where he can push things along, but he's willing to change alleigence or his plans at the drop of a hat if circumstances warrant. I agree he would not do well working for Stannis, but I don't think he'd given up on manipulating Ned (rather than betraying him) at that point. Ned's refusal to go along with the plan was yet another instance of his "honor" leading up to his downfall.

Chapter 67 (Sansa)

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No, he does the most sensible thing a fresh king would do to someone that without any reason came to him and told him "You're not the king, your uncle is. I give you the chance to flee for your life".

I disagree. I think Cersei's plan was more sensible. Consider: The last time a King (Aerys) publicly executed a Stark (Ned's dad and brother) it led directly to the war that deposed (and killed him.) And the last time a King (Robert) made an enemy of his wife, it led directly to his own death (and his line being extinguished as well). Jof doesn't know all this, but Cersei does, and going along with her plan to let Ned take the black might have assuaged most of the Starks, including Sansa. Knowing Ned's blind devotion to honor, if they forced him to swear to keep his "treasonous lies" to himself, he would have.

Jof is rash, bloodthristy and drunk with power, and not a student of history or intrigue like his mother. I don't think he ordered Ned's death to silence a threat. I think he did it to throw around his power, to show both his mother and his future wife that he is king, and will do as he pleases. (He did learn something from his "father" after all...)

As I said, I don't think Ned's approach on the matter was the right one.

Oh, I agree. To quote a very different genre. "It may turn out that the moral thing to do was not the right thing to do" - Jean-Luc Picard. Ned is as much to blame for his own death as anyone else. His straightforward northern morals have no place in the Lion's den of Kings Landing, and it's only the sense of "he's the hero! he can't die!" that makes us think he might get out of it by some deus ex machina. Cersei offers it, but then Jof denies it.

And you tell me that killing the enemy of your house that has tried to remove you from throne minutes after you took it is cruel?

I do. It was a declaration of war with the North, when he should have been trying to smooth things over. If Ned had to be killed, some Tears of Lys in his meal, or "bandits" on the road would have been wiser than a pouty public execution.

About the standards on which we both judge royalty as "cruel", "evil" or "perverted"

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I think I know why we have different take on that. You seem to judge royalty and nobility by the modern, just, everyone's equal standards.

In my own personal views, yes, but I'm trying to think of it in the appropriate context as you are.

But then he would have a reputation of weakness and him being a kid, he would be thought as a pushover.

A good point, but all the more reason to deal with it quietly, rather than publicly.

Under such a light, do you really think Jof had any other choice? Do you think Ned would have spared someone that walked to King Robert and told him "You're a fat drunkard, you should abdicate in favor of Stannis"? Robert (being chaotic) may have spared him. Ned wouldn't.

I'm not sure Ned would see taking the Black as "spared". It seems that it's the equivalent of a "life sentence" in this world. You go into exile in the freezing cold, swear off women, and have to fight wildlings all the time. As much as Ned respects them, he knows very few people who see the Wall ever leave.

That's the borderlander take on such matters, Like Ned's. A Cairhiening or Tairhen though would think and act... like everybody else in the book actually.

Good point. As you said, Ned took his execution like a Northman (or a borderlander). And royals executing people is certainly not unheard of, in any history or fantasy context. (Though note that King Theoden gave Grima Wormtongue the choice of riding into battle or exile. Should he have killed him? Or are Tolkien's kings unrealistically noble?). But from Joffrey, everything he does seems capricious and cruel, not plotted and thought out.

BTW: I don't say Jof is a good boy. I just say that the average king is as much an a####le and even the most noble monarch would have executed the usurper, because noble=/being good..

Yes, quite true. In the annals of cruel fantasy/historical kings, Jof probably doesn't crack the top ten. *cough* *cough* But I reserve the right to boo him.

[alhoon]

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That's the borderlander take on such matters, Like Ned's. A Cairhiening or Tairhen though would think and act... like everybody else in the book actually.

Good point. As you said, Ned took his execution like a Northman (or a borderlander). And royals executing people is certainly not unheard of, in any history or fantasy context. (Though note that King Theoden gave Grima Wormtongue the choice of riding into battle or exile. Should he have killed him? Or are Tolkien's kings unrealistically noble?). But from Joffrey, everything he does seems capricious and cruel, not plotted and thought out.

VERY good point. You're right. Jof didn't do it to preserve the kingdom's peace or because he thought that what was best or that was his duty. How couldn't I see that?!?
Jof did it as you said just because he wanted to do it, because he's a spoiled brat.
Yeap, I reverse my point of view. Jof is indeed a very bad person and king. He's a cruel spoiled boy on a powertrip. While some of his decisions are unavoidable he doesn't give the bad decree with a sense of duty. He didn't sentence Ned to show the kingdom that he's the rightful heir and not to be trifled with. He did it to shout "I'm the king, I do what I want idiots". There a difference between a king and a Tyrrant. Jof is a Tyrrant. I would say "neutral evil" fits him well.
OMG... I can't believe I've let that much slip. G.Martin had it there from the beginning. "The man who gives the sentence should carry it out". I bet that he would scream at me "WOOOW! Haven't you got anything out of the book?!? I try to show that every 20 pages!!!!"
Yes, Ned would have executed the usurper, but he wouldn't do it out of pleasure but out of a sense of duty and he even took care of the Gray-whatever's son and rised him in his home. Even the obsessed Robert realized in his deathbed that he shouldn't have sent assassins after a girl and an infant and yes, that was the smart choice for the kingdom.

PS. Instead of a long list of "I agree", just take that I mostly agree with everything you said. I was reading the book at 4 am and hastily, just wanting to know what comes next. I should have tried to find out why there was a gnawining "Jof is bad" feeling in me instead of trying to rationalize it. I should have looked at the motives not to the actions themselves.

The only thing I disagree with is "bandits on the road/Tears of Lys". That would send the North to war too since they would be sure the Lannisters or Jof did it, and I'm not sure if war was avoidable at this point. Also Tears of Lys is slow killing and Ned would have realized he was poisoned since he knew the poison and how it would act so he would speak up and say "It's not illness! I'll die within a few hours from a poison named Tears of Lys."
Still with Ned on the wall and some good propaganda the war with the North would find the Northern army with 1/2 the people it will have now.

Other than the specific content, or the weaknesses of Martin's books (IMO there are many),
it's nice to see that the fantasy genre finally is getting a treatment on TV that is not outright embarassing.

I can also say that there are certain weaknesses in the books, but mostly it comes down to I see things differently than G.Martin does. Especially the penalties for when little noble girls feed the royal heir to the wolves. While I can spot a few things here and there the characters are true to themselves and their sense (or lack of) of honor and duty. So I just accept that this is a world where the daughter of the best friend of the king can injure the heir and escape with a slap on the hand.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

it's nice to see that the fantasy genre finally is getting a treatment on TV that is not outright embarassing.

Hear, hear. After LOTR, I expected more of a renaissance in fantasy movies/film taking the genre seriously. We didn't really get much of that. Pisspoor adaptations like Earthsea, lots of Harry Potter movies and Harry Potter clones, and stuff like the ones you mentioned. (With the exception of the mostly decent Narnia movies. I only saw the first 2, though). I'd love for GoT to do well enough to inspire other adaptations (dare we hope for WoT? It would be like 20 seasons long, and Rand would look older than Smallville's Clark by the end) or even better, original shows.

[alhoon]

dare we hope for WoT? It would be like 20 seasons long, and Rand would look older than Smallville's Clark by the end

I can't say I look forward to that. The chances that WoT be good are far less than WoT being made bad and as you said it would require tons of cutting material to fit it in 15 seasons. And I don't want to see a 42 years old Rand. A WoT show that does honor to the books is more difficult than a GoT show that does honor to the books. That GoT show is so good means we're very lucky; chances for it to be so good adaption were 10% or so.

And let's not forget a problem I recently discovered I have since I'm blessed with great imagination:

Images stuck to my head and they create new images. I could have sworn that I've watched part of what we discussed in the spoilers.
I was re-watching episode 5 to find Tyrion's jokes about his family (at the base of Stone). I was sure it was in the episode. I can see the actors in the dark talking in my memory, their faces and all. I can't believe it's not in the episode. I just rewatched before posting this to make certain.
In many of the discussions we have I was about to say "as shown in the show he..." only to realize that the images in my memory can't be from the show since the storyline hasn't reached there yet.

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For example, I may sometimes refer to "as Varys the spider discussed with Ned in the dungeons" because that image with them sitting there, Varys disguised, passing over the flask, Ned on his back with the plaster on his foot and feverish for me is as real as I've watched it.
Remember when I said "Varys said that the King's wine was too strong, Ned almost vomited when he drunk it" when you said it's revealed in book 2? I've written "the show had this scene in episode..." and then deleted it because I remember that scene would be in episode 9 or so.
I'm going crazy, I know it.
Another image burned in my mind as if I've watched it is Syrio confronting 5 Lannister guards + a member of the Kingsguard with a stick. Thankfully in that memory, the knight is fuzzy (since I've seen him in the show or recognise him. If it was Jaime, I would be swearing that it was in the show)

So appart from the quite unsettling realization that my mind decides what's memory and what's imagination wrongly, based on emotional impact and not on real memory, a bad WoT show, would ruin my memories of the Wheel of Time.
Now when I read the book I have a fuzzy, unclear image of a man with red hair and hard eyes, a couple of wounds on his side. If I see a stupid interpretation of it, I'll put that in my mind's eye for Rand perhaps for all books, devaluating re-reads.
PS. Since I didn't know my mind was playing that nasty trick on me, I don't know how long it's that way or if it works as terribly when I've already the images and events in my mind as I watch.
For LotR, when I tried to read it in 2005, I had the movie's chars in my mind. I.e. when I first read the books, I had the elves in my mind as shorter than humans by 1' (like D&D elves) and with more greenish skin (not green like fey, but greenish). That was partially torn down. When I was reading the chapters in Fellowship with the elves, some times I was picturing my version and other times the movie's version. With the Ents though I kept my version over the movie's (I pictured them thicker). Orcs on the other hand... Nope, totally adopted the movie's orcs.

[Le Noir Faineant]

Hear, hear. After LOTR, I expected more of a renaissance in fantasy movies/film taking the genre seriously. We didn't really get much of that. Pisspoor adaptations like Earthsea, lots of Harry Potter movies and Harry Potter clones, and stuff like the ones you mentioned. (With the exception of the mostly decent Narnia movies. I only saw the first 2, though). I'd love for GoT to do well enough to inspire other adaptations (dare we hope for WoT? It would be like 20 seasons long, and Rand would look older than Smallville's Clark by the end) or even better, original shows.

I actually enjoyed the Earthsea movies, for what they were, but overall, I agree.

WoT, I doubt. But what about the Malazan Book of the Fallen? Or, a decent adaptation of Shannara?
D&D movies worth their money?

I doubt The Hobbit and GoT will remain the only ones.


Also, welcome back, Al! How would you punish a thirteen-year-old that set her dog on you?!

[alhoon]

A 10 years old girl that had her wolf set upon the royal heir after she clubbed him and threw him on the ground as he was "disciplining" a peasant (remember, heirs can be cruel) and then put a sword on said heir's neck?!?!?

If I had to deal with a powerful family like the Starks that held the North in their grasp, I would either approach it as Robert "Oh, well kids play." saving face. It wouldn't be "a girl attacked the royal heir and set her wolf on him that almost broke his hand then put a sword on his neck." It would be "That unruly girl, while playing with her friends, she accidentally threw down the royal heir and her dog (wolf is such a strong word, isn't it?) panicked and scratched the hand of the royal heir. The royal heir, being 13 dropped his sword in the river and lost it. Little girls shouldn't have large dogs as puppies. The family should pay the sword, but heck, let's not make a deal out of it. Children play." saving face. Admiting that I let an attack on the royal heir go unpunished because the girl's father is my best (and only) friend is ... bad for politics.
or
I would have her sent into exile (back to her home) forbidding her to ever set foot out of Winterfell, strip her father of his title as the Hand of the King and send him back to the North (but not exile, he could go wherever he wanted), breaking the engagement between attacked-heir and girl's sister and demand recompensation for harming the royal heir's wounds in the form of money, not dead wolves.
Secret consessions? Her family would be responsible to enforce her curfew, so in fact she may travel at her family's discretion.

If I had to deal with a lord that wasn't a high lord? With say 100 men and a couple of minor lords under him?
Girl into exile, father in my dungeons stripped of title and land, family stripped of land. Her mother and sisters would spend the rest of their life in a farm of the crown's choosing (obviously in my lands, not their) under guard to make sure brothers don't get any ideas. I would send 200 men to enforce it along 10-15 knights that hated the family and wanted to look good in my eyes with a "well, if the guards resist, the King wouldn't be terribly sorry to find out they've been killed. We don't want them to turn bandits after all, do we?"
Then, without making it known, I would poison the father in the dungeons after a couple of years.