Game of Thrones - the TV series

[alhoon]

Well, each with their views. For me it was unacceptable and...

VIEW CONTENT:

She didn't seem to do it to stop a future Hitler. She seemed to do it to get revenged for her slaughtered people by killing what her enemy loved most without caring it would harm a baby or totaly destroy the feelings (and propably lead to the death) of a woman that at least tried to help her whether she wanted that help or not. Also by their culture... magic was evil. And that spell in particular was also evil and she said so.

As for the dragons... everyone I've spoken with expected they would hatch. She's dragon-spawn herself and it's on theme. That's why I didn't say "I told you so".
I may borrow the next book sooner or later (my cousin has all 4) to see what she actually expects to do now that she has no son and still loves Drogo. She almost seemed to be on auto-driver when she tried to pull the remains of the Khala-something to her and keep trying for the iron throne. There no mention what she plans to do with it if she gets it. To get a heir... she has to re-marry. She certainly doesn't seem ready to this and after learning men with Drogo, the civilized and perfumed men of Westeros would seem to her like Varys.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

Well, the season's over! Overall, an amazingly faithful adaptation, IMHO.


The Pycelle scene was weird and felt unnecessary, though the fake hunch was cute. But please, no more Ros. Please, enough is enough. I was pleased that the

VIEW CONTENT:

dragon

scene came off well, I was worried it might look cheesy, but it was pretty perfect (book quibbles aside).

VIEW CONTENT:

I wish Mirri's line about Dany having no more children wasn't cut. I think that's important for the character, that the dragons are all the children she has. Also, I looked carefully for the red comet and didn't see it. (It becomes important in book 2, and would have been a nice teaser.) And the line from Luwin: "we shall need to find a stonecarver who knew his likeness well."

It was nice to "Re-read" the book without really re-reading it. And I got new respect for some characters I'd glossed over the first time, like Jorah, Barristan, and Varys, for example.

Can't wait for season 2!

[alhoon]

Haven't watched it yet (I will today) but I've read the book. I was also worried about

VIEW CONTENT:

the dragon scene

PS. some of your notes should be in spoilers like

VIEW CONTENT:

mention to Miri and dragons

This is a spoiler free thread after all. Someone may take a read here and there before deciding to watch the series. Just a suggestion.

As for the important missing line:

VIEW CONTENT:

Prophecies have been proven to be not-absolute and a maegi's guessings can't be taken as truth. That Miri said she won't have any other children doesn't mean she won't.

Question:

VIEW CONTENT:

How she comes off to screen after loosing everything?
She sacrificed everything (and to a degree she knew it according to the book) to save her husband, only to find out she has been duped and she bought a next-to-lifeless body with her child and the tribe's loyalty. In the book she just doesn't look back, understanding that if she stops to consider what she had and what she lost, she will crack.
PS. It is a bad thing what the Maegi did. Devils deal with such bargains in Ravenloft.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

This is a spoiler free thread after all. Someone may take a read here and there before deciding to watch the series. Just a suggestion.

Yeah, I forgot it wasn't just you and I here.

As for the important missing line:

VIEW CONTENT:

Prophecies have been proven to be not-absolute and a maegi's guessings can't be taken as truth. That Miri said she won't have any other children doesn't mean she won't.

True, and others online have debated whether it is true or not, but IMHO, true or not, Dany's hearing that line, and believing it is true, is important.

VIEW CONTENT:

Though I never thought of it as a witch's prophecy, but a midwife's diagnosis. I always assumed the ritual not only killed Rhaego in the womb, but the womb itself. (Though if that's the case, it does make the act even more evil).

Question:

VIEW CONTENT:

How she comes off to screen after loosing everything?

VIEW CONTENT:

It's of course hard to portray her full thoughts onscreen, but I think it worked well. She shows grief, but also she's hard and cold, forged by the events into something stronger.

VIEW CONTENT:

PS. It is a bad thing what the Maegi did. Devils deal with such bargains in Ravenloft.

In Ravenloft, absolutely. But I don't think Martin believes in such absolutes, or at least, in the world of ASoIaF, he likes to emphasize the shades of gray in everything and everyone.

VIEW CONTENT:

In the final episode, I think Miri's explanation to Dany about what she did sums up her side better than I can or did. It's a bad thing, I agree. Is it a "pure evil" thing? I don't know if there's any such thing in this world. Even if it's a pure evil act, I don't think that makes her a pure evil person, if there is such a thing. She talks about all the innocent people she's healed and how the Dothraki slaughtered them, for example. She did good before, she did one evil act for perhaps some good reasons (or perhaps not), and if she'd lived, I see no reason to believe she'd do anything like that again. She'd probably be content to go back to being a village healer, if allowed to do so. In the world of ASoIaF, one evil act in a life of good barely registers. In Ravenloft, it would probably merit a failed DP check, but I doubt it would be an AoUD, and she's not Darklord material.

[alhoon]

Haven't watched yet (I will in a few hours) but:

VIEW CONTENT:

In the world of ASoIaF, one evil act in a life of good barely registers. In Ravenloft, it would probably merit a failed DP check, but I doubt it would be an AoUD, and she's not Darklord material.

I see the root of our different opinions now

VIEW CONTENT:

You see, I don't think a sane person would ever stoop as low as Miri for whatever reasons. If she was left alone, I'm pretty sure Miri would go back to a village and plot how to keep tormenting the Dothraki for all the bad they caused to her and her people. For someone to do such a hineous act, she must be nearly consumed with hate. I remind you, Robert didn't stoop so low as she did and he regretted the order he gave. In the book, Miri burns completely unrepentant from bringing low her enemies along with the innocent and those that showed her kindness.
If you want the usual examples: Hitler turned to be a bad person, he wasn't born a bad person. The same with OBLaden. Both of them did atrocities that they have justified in their demented, evil mind as Miri did. From nonhistorical viewpoint, If you ask Hazlik, he would tell you it's OK to plan the genocide of the whole domain. Semirhage was a healer too, the best actually. She slowly turned from sadist to a pure force of evil.

To surmise: One hineous act doesn't turn a person evil.But to commit a hineous act you need to be evil. A good person doesn't suddenly grabs a gun and kills someone because he scratched his car. And once you break the barrier of what's good and what's bad and appease the few torn remains of your conciense it's easier to go on.
In our resistance against the Nazis there were people that couldn't find it within themselves when they got the upper hand, to kill those that have wronged them. Even though the enemies at their mercy have turned in or killed their brothers or parents, they just couldn't pull the trigger. Why? Because they weren't as jaded and even in their grief and anger they haven't been corrupted to a degree of killing a bound and helpless human being.

[alhoon]

Watching:
OK Half the episode is not in the book.

Catelyn:
Ehh? Didn't find the first back in the book.

VIEW CONTENT:

The "King in the north" scene was butchered. I wanted to see Catelyn say the merits of peace before everyone jumped on the rebellion wagon, that served the Greyjoys so well. I liked how they portrayed Thonn(sp?) Greyjoy in the background to remind us what the price for failure is.

Later part:
NOT in the book! Her last part is in the scene in spoiler tags!
Gonzoron? Does this happen in book 2?
Anyway... Jaime in that one seems as crazy as Cersei. Actually, she makes some (kinda disgusting) sense. He doesn't in this scene.

Sansa:
A bit more condenced but it passes the meaning well. The parapet walk was a bit changed not portraying as well Sansa's "self-protect" mechanism that it seems she will adopt.

Cersei:
No, no! It can't be. My eyes are playing tricks to me...

VIEW CONTENT:

Did she have sex with her nephew while her lover/brother is captive?! That's just not possible. A woman can't be that pro-incest. Hello! There are other men out there that are not your closest of kin. She wanted to drown her grief in infidelity (if that applies) to her brother with her... nephew? That's just not possible. I feel soiled for even typing these things.
Her father is lucky he's not around. She would distract him and cost him the war.

Tyrion:
It seems I miss every part of his SLine that's out. The part how Blackfish affected events especially. I can't understand why you think Varys is more important than Blackfish to be sincere.
Tyrion actually seems the most sane of them all. Body deformities instead of mind.

VIEW CONTENT:

He's not fond of teasing an enraged woman to beat him to death with a rock and tell her that he tried to kill her son and he's not sexually fond of his closest relatives.
He also understands that drowning while wearing your full plate armor isn't a "very gallant" death.
I would also have liked the Tyrion-Tywin exchange of "Joff is boy, I've done some foolishness in his age" and Tywin's "We should be grateful that he hasn't married a whore" That's where Tyrion got his sense of humor.
And the "Take heart father, at least Rhaegar Tagaryen is still dead." after they find out how overwhelmed they are.

Also from the scene in the book it seems Tyrion is loyal (as we knew already) to his crazed perverted family.

VIEW CONTENT:

He reacts in anger when he realizes that Tywin considers Jaime dead already. Part of it is propably the usual indignation he feels since his father considers him less-a-man but some of it especially the "wanted to rip out his heart to see if it was made of cold gold" seems anger that his father is abandoning Jaime...literaly to the wolves.

After that scene, the one with Shae, is it in book 2 too? This one seems added since

VIEW CONTENT:

Tyrion's first thing to Shae once he returned was "I'm of a mind to take you to King's Landing". No charades about this and that.

Daenerys:
First scene:
Appart from thinking that was in the last episode, look how they portray Mirri.

VIEW CONTENT:

She smirks in a self-satisfactory way when she tells Danny of her son's death and how monstrous the child was, full of grave worms and later when she says about Drogo, you can almost listen a sardonic "ha ha" in the end.

Second scene: How the actor that plays Drogo managed to be so still with the other actress caressing and kissing him? I don't think I could manage that with a hot 22years old fondling me.

The big one: Quite good although it obviously can't capture the feelings conveyed in the book. I also didn't see the red comet and it did seem important. Also the Book Daenerys isn't immune to fire... She didn't burn to crisp but she suffered from the heat. Perspiration was steaming from her.

Arya:

It seems a nice scene.

End result: I may get the 2nd book to read about those things, especially Arya's. Some must be in.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

Later part:
NOT in the book! Her last part is in the scene in spoiler tags!
Gonzoron? Does this happen in book 2?

Spoiler for book 2 brief answer:

VIEW CONTENT:

Yes, of a sort.

More in-depth spoiler answer:

VIEW CONTENT:

This is part of a longer conversation between them. My guess is they will be splitting that convo up into several to keep Jaime in the show more than he would otherwise have been.

Anyway... Jaime in that one seems as crazy as Cersei. Actually, she makes some (kinda disgusting) sense. He doesn't in this scene.

Dude's been through a lot. for one thing, he lost, probably for the first time ever, and to a "green boy." He's not thinking 100% clearly.

Cersei:
No, no! It can't be. My eyes are playing tricks to me...

VIEW CONTENT:

Did she have sex with her nephew while her lover/brother is captive?!

Cousin, not nephew. Lancel is Kevan's son. Kevan is Tywin's brother.

VIEW CONTENT:

That's just not possible. A woman can't be that pro-incest. Hello! There are other men out there that are not your closest of kin. She wanted to drown her grief in infidelity (if that applies) to her brother with her... nephew? That's just not possible. I feel soiled for even typing these things.

Book 2 spoiler, part 1:

VIEW CONTENT:

Yes, this is from book 2, pulled in a bit, though I would have preferred to see Cersei's rage over Jaime's capture instead. It's not exactly as you are phrasing it, though. If you want the details, see spoiler part 2...

Book 2 spoiler, part 2:

VIEW CONTENT:

She's not drowning her grief. She manipulating Lancel with the promise of sex. In the book, it's revealed that while she is fooling around with him, she's holding out actual intercourse, somewhat as bait for future loyalty. Her incest for Jaime is based in love and a twisted sense of "belonging together." But her incest** for Lancel is pure manipulation. Much like she offered herself to Ned at the garden scene. **If you can even call it incest. Compared to a twin brother, a 1st cousin is downright normal. In fact, it wasn't even taboo in our world until recently. (Two of my grandmother's cousins married each other.) In some places it might still be legal.

So it's not an emotional affair on Jaime, it's a physical one, with the goal of manipulation. I'm not sure if that makes it more or less twisted.

Tyrion:
It seems I miss every part of his SLine that's out. The part how Blackfish affected events especially. I can't understand why you think Varys is more important than Blackfish to be sincere.

Well, considering Blackfish was totally cut from the show and it still made sense... how important can he be? Varys seems to me an important part of the scheming in KL. Although I suppose he could have been cut (hah! still funny!) too, but we'd miss his conversation with Ned in the dungeon, and we'd have Littlefinger unopposed as the master manipulator. I like the way they play off each other, and how it adds to Ned's confusion. Instead of "do I trust Littlefinger or not?" we have "do I trust Littlefinger or Varys or neither?". It's like the devil and the angel on his shoulder, except you can't tell which is which.

I honestly didn't remember what Blackfish did in Tyrion's storyline, and in looking up in the recap site, I see he commanded the outriders to mask the split of Robb's army. OK, important, I guess, but it could just as easily happen offscreen, and it did.

Tyrion actually seems the most sane of them all. Body deformities instead of mind.

Also from the scene in the book it seems Tyrion is loyal (as we knew already) to his crazed perverted family.

Yup, I love Tyrion as a character for 2 reasons: 1) he subverts the typical "dwarf" of fantasy stories by being just a real dwarf, not a Gimli-dwarf, 2) he's always the asterisk. As much as you want to, you can never say "I hate the Lannisters". You have to say "I hate the Lannisters*" "*except for Tyrion."

[alhoon]

VIEW CONTENT:

Yes, of a sort.

More in-depth spoiler answer:

VIEW CONTENT:

This is part of a longer conversation between them. My guess is they will be splitting that convo up into several to keep Jaime in the show more than he would otherwise have been.

VIEW CONTENT:

So he bites the dust? A pity. I liked him. Can't say I haven't guessed though. He seems to know, Tywin seems to know, Tyrion seems to know and Cersei already moved to the next closest relative. So, Cousin, not nephew. A great and important difference isn't it? OMG. And she worries about Sansa's stupid children? She has enough to worry about her mental state.
PS. Why didn't she pick a nephew? They tend to be... you know younger and she's middle aged (well, about 30 but that's beyond the point, she's middle aged for this culture)

Also I edited my previous answer since I was still watching. I'll edit this one to adress the rest of your post.

About the 2nd spoiler:

VIEW CONTENT:

Oh, and how could we the viewers know?
And no, "everything but" still counts as sex in my book. It doesn't count just in a president's case but let's not pull real world politics into it.
Also there are a lot of countries I know of, that marrying your cousin is considered normal more or less. My sister knows an Arab that has married his cousin and he tells of others too.
But Cersei and her cousin? In the series it seemed just sex. Not manipulation and CERTAINLY not love.

Blackfish:

VIEW CONTENT:

He's the reason they win instead of limping back to the North and that Tullys still exist. All his ideas were good and his execution of such strategies seamless. ALL those miraculous victories that reversed the situation are to a great part his doing.
- The Lanisters didn't see Northmen coming until they were on top of them, didn't know the twins-lord (the one with the children) have given them access until too late because he had the idea to shoot down birds and blinded the Lannister army to their passing with his horsemen killing only the scouts he had to.
- he orchestrated the attack and ruse that allowed Robb to crush through the Lannister army with 3/4 of his army intact and block their way to Casterly rock, supplies and reinforcements. That was the battle in the last episode. In the book it was kinda different.
- He arranged for the trap that led Robb's army to catch Jaime leading him to believe he was dealing with a few hundred men. Then before Jaime's army could learn what has happened, they attacked the besieging army and wiped it out of existance

He's the most competent commander so far in the book, even better than Tywin and Jaime. In fact he knew that Jaime's fault was that he couldn't sit and wait out a siege. Perhaps Robert was better (perhaps).

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

VIEW CONTENT:

So he bites the dust? A pity. I liked him.

VIEW CONTENT:

I didn't say that, I just meant that we don't see him for a lot of the book. Take that as you will.

VIEW CONTENT:

PS. Why didn't she pick a nephew? They tend to be... you know younger and she's middle aged (well, about 30 but that's beyond the point, she's middle aged for this culture)

VIEW CONTENT:

Mainly because she doesn't have one. Her only siblings are Tyrion and Jaime, and neither of them have children of their own... well... actually, I suppose you could say that Cersei's own sons (Jof & Tommen) are also her nephews, since they are Jaime's. But that would be icky, even for her. And wouldn't buy her anything. She already controls them. (aside from the occasional "off with his head" tanrtum, of course.)

[alhoon]

I have edited my two previous Posts BTW.

VIEW CONTENT:

I didn't say that, I just meant that we don't see him for a lot of the book. Take that as you will.

I take it as everyone in the book takes it.

VIEW CONTENT:

She already controls them. (aside from the occasional "off with his head" tanrtum, of course.)

And look how well this occasional tantrum worked so far...

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

After that scene, the one with Shae, is it in book 2 too? This one seems added since

VIEW CONTENT:

Tyrion's first thing to Shae once he returned was "I'm of a mind to take you to King's Landing". No charades about this and that.

No, not in the books, as far as I know. Probably added/stretched out to provide a bit of character development. I liked it, especially some of Shae's indignant lines.

VIEW CONTENT:

"Am I funny? It's Shae the funny whore!"

Daenerys:

VIEW CONTENT:

Second scene: How the actor that plays Drogo managed to be so still with the other actress caressing and kissing him? I don't think I could manage that with a hot 22years old fondling me.

He's a pro.

End result: I may get the 2nd book to read about those things, especially Arya's. Some must be in.

It's either that, or wait until spring 2012.

About the 2nd spoiler:

VIEW CONTENT:

Oh, and how could we the viewers know?
And no, "everything but" still counts as sex in my book. It doesn't count just in a president's case but let's not pull real world politics into it.
Also there are a lot of countries I know of, that marrying your cousin is considered normal more or less. My sister knows an Arab that has married his cousin and he tells of others too.
But Cersei and her cousin? In the series it seemed just sex. Not manipulation and CERTAINLY not love.

Yeah, you have almost no way to know the extent of things and her feelings from that brief scene. I expect it was there mainly for shock value and will be elaborated more next season. (Also maybe to confirm beyond any doubt that Cersei was responsible (via Lancel) for Robert's death.) But I see an inkling of manipulation there, in her dismissiveness towards him. In that scene, he's clearly the eager and clueless one and she's in charge. ("When you were young." and "get back to bed.")

Blackfish:

Details, details. I hear you, and I sympathize. I really liked Ghân-buri-Ghân, and he was vital in getting Aragorn and friends through the mountains, but Peter Jackson cut him out and almost no one was the wiser.

ETA:

And look how well this occasional tantrum worked so far...

Agreed, but I don't think that would have been averted by sleeping with him.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

I see the root of our different opinions now

VIEW CONTENT:

You see, I don't think a sane person would ever stoop as low as Miri for whatever reasons. If she was left alone, I'm pretty sure Miri would go back to a village and plot how to keep tormenting the Dothraki for all the bad they caused to her and her people. For someone to do such a hineous act, she must be nearly consumed with hate.

VIEW CONTENT:

I guess that's the real question: Was she driven insane and evil permanently by these events, or was she temporarily insane? While all your examples of formerly good people turned to evil are good, I offer a counterpoint: Rudolph Van Richten. A good man, he lost his son, and driven by grief allied himself with Azalin, and used a horde of zombies to track down and slaughter the Radanovich tribe, who had already sold Erasmus (not just the leader responsible for it, but the whole tribe, including women and children, IIRC). Then he goes on to be the "greatest hero the world has ever known." Dark Magic, Revenge, etc... and then not just a simple good life, but a heroic one.

Now, Van Richten was repentant, almost immediately IIRC (though he didn't give up his hatred of all Vistani for decades). And Mirri did seem satisfied, not repentant, so that is a bit different. But if she hadn't been killed, I don't see her becoming the avenging enemy of all Dothraki. She'd had her revenge and was done, IMHO. But of course, we have no way to know for sure, thanks to Danaerys.

The fact that we can debate at such length the motives/guilt of such an ultimately minor character is one of the things I love about this series, BTW.

[alhoon]

Yeap, it's nice.

More about Miri:

VIEW CONTENT:

You say VR. Good example. But take a note on temporal insanity: Miri didn't seem to be in the throes of a temporal revenge thing, like the mother that sees her son's murderer walking by and pushes him in front of a car. She seemed ... disconnected. We haven't seen her wailing or sobbing while in the care of the Dothraki. It seems she had accepted what happened and turned it to hate inside her. She went to the pyre unrepentant, content that she had next-to-destroyed a woman that showed her kindness.
As Jorah said she could have achieved the same by saying about Drogo "Nah, I can't help him sorry. No, I can't use spells, he will die". The Dothraki would tear appart as they did and the blood of the infant would be on their hands not hers.
If she had done that I would have considered her a far better person.

[alhoon]

Tomorrow's Sunday and no GoT coming.

[alhoon]

My father just watched the whole thing.
He told me a few things that I may have missed both from book and series.

VIEW CONTENT:

He thinks it's obvious Jorah is in love with Daenerys. He told me I must be blind to not see it.