5e announced!

Discussing all things Ravenloft
User avatar
ewancummins
Evil Genius
Evil Genius
Posts: 28523
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2005 1:35 pm

Re: 5e announced!

Post by ewancummins »

Five wrote:
ewancummins wrote: Nothing the game publisher does will ever please everyone. They have to make the decisions that will net them the largest sales, and build up the biggest customer base. To do that, they need market research. They have to find out what people want to buy, and then design that.
If they don't have market research, then bloody hell. But yeah. I hear you. That, and maybe open up the vault on a quarter-century worth of material in the attempts at drawing in old fans, and/or to show others that they are in the business because they've done the legwork. Corporate flexing, whatever you want to call it. Besides, to the new gen, 1E/2E is a new edition. Who knows? Maybe it'd be spits and giggles to see how the old crew did things...

By the way, what does "Azalin" mean? The graphic-thingey, not the name. Chucklin' skull?

Yeah, just a chuckling skull.
Delight is to him- a far, far upward, and inward delight- who against the proud gods and commodores of this earth, ever stands forth his own inexorable self.

-from Moby Dick (Hermann Melville)
User avatar
Ken of Ghastria
Champion of the Maiden
Champion of the Maiden
Posts: 1508
Joined: Wed Dec 03, 2003 10:17 am
Location: In the marshes of New Jersey
Contact:

Re: 5e announced!

Post by Ken of Ghastria »

Jonathan Winters wrote:Also, I'm a Kobold Quarterly subscriber and the amount of 4E articles are dwindling with each issue. Whether KQ patrons are PF-lovers in general or it really is a sign of the times I can't tell. Also, you know what I'm seeing more of? Dragon Age articles, Bestiary, conversion guides for KQ products. Rather interesting...
My opinion regarding the dwindling of 4E articles in non-WotC sources: You can't use anything in those articles in the DDI Character Builder. The Character Builder is a terrific tool for generating 4E PCs, but there's no way to import feats, powers, etc. from third-party sources. So if there's a bit of crunch that can't be used in the Character Builder, most players won't be interested. Less demand for such third-party crunch results in fewer such articles being written or assigned by third-party publications.
"There are three rules for writing a novel. Unfortunately, no one knows what they are."
--W. Somerset Maugham
User avatar
Drinnik Shoehorn
Evil Genius
Evil Genius
Posts: 1795
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2003 6:28 pm
Location: Tiptree, Home of Jam

Re: 5e announced!

Post by Drinnik Shoehorn »

If WotC were worried about Pathfinder grabbing their audience, couldn't they just revoke the OGL?
"Blood once flowed, a choice was made
Travel by night the smallest one bade" The Ballad of the Taverners.
The Galen Saga: 2000-2005
User avatar
Nathan of the FoS
Fiendish Enforcer
Fiendish Enforcer
Posts: 5246
Joined: Fri Nov 28, 2003 3:39 pm
Location: San Francisco CA

Re: 5e announced!

Post by Nathan of the FoS »

Drinnik Shoehorn wrote:If WotC were worried about Pathfinder grabbing their audience, couldn't they just revoke the OGL?
IANAL, but as far as I understand it, they can't; having placed it in the public domain, they relinquished the right to take it back later.
[b]FEAR JUSTICE.[/b] :elena:
User avatar
HuManBing
Evil Genius
Evil Genius
Posts: 3748
Joined: Fri Jan 28, 2005 9:13 am
Contact:

Re: 5e announced!

Post by HuManBing »

I am a lawyer, and that's how I understand it as well.

The OGL is basically a statement to the public to use these materials how you like. It's not the same as an annual license or a series license. It cannot be revoked (hence "open") and it essentially makes those materials public-domain.

White Wolf may have had a periodically-renewed license to use characters and settings from Ravenloft. They then chose not to renew it one year, and so their sales of Ravenloft items had to end. (Which means, unfortunately, very few Tarokka decks and Gaz Vs.) But this is a commercial license.

The OGL was clearly an open offer to the gaming industry as a whole, saying "take these things and do whatever you want with them - even make money from them if you publish a derivative work". It also clearly delineates things that you cannot use, such as drow, mind flayers, and so forth.
Lost Heretic
Criminal Mastermind
Criminal Mastermind
Posts: 132
Joined: Thu Feb 15, 2007 9:22 pm
Location: La Nouvelle Angleterre

Re: 5e announced!

Post by Lost Heretic »

HuManBing wrote:
Nathan of the FoS wrote:IANAL, but as far as I understand it...
I am a lawyer, and...
BAM, LAWYERED!

Not that, y'know, either party disagreed. ;)
Darker Days Radio - The World of Darkness Podcast
User avatar
ewancummins
Evil Genius
Evil Genius
Posts: 28523
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2005 1:35 pm

Re: 5e announced!

Post by ewancummins »

Drinnik Shoehorn wrote:If WotC were worried about Pathfinder grabbing their audience, couldn't they just revoke the OGL?
IANAL either- but this is how I understand the OGL. The cat is out of the bag, the genie out of the bottle.
Delight is to him- a far, far upward, and inward delight- who against the proud gods and commodores of this earth, ever stands forth his own inexorable self.

-from Moby Dick (Hermann Melville)
Jonathan Winters
Evil Genius
Evil Genius
Posts: 431
Joined: Mon Jul 05, 2004 8:23 pm
Location: Montreal, Quebec

Re: 5e announced!

Post by Jonathan Winters »

@Ken of G.

I have no clue how the Character Builder works. Do you have to pay for this service?

From my perspective (what I have seen or heard, FWIW), I don't think that's the only reason. Open Design has not released a 4E product in a year (AFAIK), Court of the Shadow Fey. With every new project, PFRPG gains the Patrons' favours. With Dragon Age conversion guides. No shadow of 4E.

And, again AFAIK, CotS received great reviews.

Please correct me if I'm wrong. So, if the Char Build is to ''blame'', somehow that seems rather unwieldy. You can only play 4E with the Char Build? (Or that's the best way to do it from my understanding?)

And no 4E bashing meant, just curious.

And , I don't know the details, but the OGL cannot be revoked.

Patrick
Mysteries of Darkon (AKA Miranda Cornelius' Journal)
On hiatus while visiting Ptolus, City by the Spire, new RL-inspired campaign: Madness Rising!
www.bullonir.wikidot.com
User avatar
Ken of Ghastria
Champion of the Maiden
Champion of the Maiden
Posts: 1508
Joined: Wed Dec 03, 2003 10:17 am
Location: In the marshes of New Jersey
Contact:

Re: 5e announced!

Post by Ken of Ghastria »

Patrick,

No problem. The role of the Character Builder in more or less "isolating" 4E from the rest of the RPG community is interesting from a business standpoint. Yes, it technically does cost money, as it's one of the features available to anyone who pays the DDI subscription fee to WotC. And it's cool! You can easily choose races, powers, feats, items, etc., and not only does it do the math for you, but it prints out a character sheet (complete with color-coded power cards) that provides your PC's attack and damage numbers right off the bat. So, no, while the Character Builder isn't strictly necessary to create a 4E character, it is convenient, and it gets updated regularly with new crunch from Dungeon, Dragon, and the WotC D&D sourcebooks.

There are two things that, in my opinion, gave the Character Builder more power while reducing third-party publishers' desire to produce 4e crunch:

1) D&D Encounters and "Organized Play": Granted, the RPGA had its ups and downs over the years. One thing that had been fairly consistent prior to 4E was that RPGA events were typically held at conventions. Yeah, there were v3.5 RPGA games (e.g. Living Greyhawk) at a few gaming stores, but for the most part, they weren't a factor. Then, after 4E launched, the RPGA -- now fully integrated as WotC's "Organized Play" -- began "D&D Encounters": regular, weekly events at local stores where the same game was run nationwide. And unlike earlier campaigns, where new attendees were often intimidated (intentionally or not) by veteran attendees who had stockpiled massive amounts of certificates and magic items ("Living City," anyone?), D&D Encounters was designed so that you could attend as frequently or infrequently as you wished. It's been a definite hit for WotC and for gaming stores. And, as with earlier national campaigns, your character had to be generated using official D&D content, i.e., no third-party stuff. Again, the Character Builder makes this easy to do, and so Character Builder sheets at Organized Play events became the norm.

2) No importing of outside crunch into the Character Builder: Under Third Edition and the OGL, lots of third-party publishers (3PPs) created feats, spells, prestige classes, etc. (Hey, I used to freelance for Goodman Games; I worked on some of that crunch! :wink: ) In the months before 4E was released, WotC offered another licensing deal to 3PPs, although it was noticeably more draconian than the OGL. (For one thing, a 3PP's acceptance of the new 4E license meant that it could no longer create new v3.5 content or even sell its older v3.5 material, although WotC relaxed this part of the license months later.) So those companies that did accept the 4E license began creating adventures and crunch, just as they had done before under the v3.5 OGL. But that was during the initial months of 4E, before the DDI Character Builder had fully developed. Once it had developed, fans quickly realized that they couldn't use crunch from 3PPs; there was no way to import them.

Between those factors, it wasn't long before 4E crunch from 3PPs became little more than creative exercises; most 4E players weren't using them. So if you're a 3PP, why spend any more time or money on assigning and publishing such articles? Typically, any 4E crunch that you DO still see from 3PPs is aimed at DMs, not players.

I'm sure that some will disagree, but I don't believe that the Character Builder was created with the squashing of 3PP content in mind; certainly, based on WotC's previous, less-than-stellar online efforts, there was little reason to think that the Character Builder would have a big impact. That said, once that impact was noticed, WotC (from a business sense) made the most of it.
"There are three rules for writing a novel. Unfortunately, no one knows what they are."
--W. Somerset Maugham
User avatar
alhoon
Invisible Menace
Invisible Menace
Posts: 8844
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2003 6:46 pm
Location: Chania or Athens // Greece

Re: 5e announced!

Post by alhoon »

Ken of Ghastria wrote:No problem. The role of the Character Builder in more or less "isolating" 4E from the rest of the RPG community is interesting from a business standpoint. Yes, it technically does cost money, as it's one of the features available to anyone who pays the DDI subscription fee to WotC. And it's cool! You can easily choose races, powers, feats, items, etc., and not only does it do the math for you, but it prints out a character sheet (complete with color-coded power cards) that provides your PC's attack and damage numbers right off the bat. So, no, while the Character Builder isn't strictly necessary to create a 4E character, it is convenient, and it gets updated regularly with new crunch from Dungeon, Dragon, and the WotC D&D sourcebooks.
However, Having the feats and powers etc in the builder is the reason I didn't buy a couple of books back in the day I had DDI subscription. When you're more interested in the crunch of a book, and they give it to you for free (since it's in the program you're already subscribed to) you don't have to buy it.

Again as with OGL, they created something so wonderful and powerful that it would cut in their profits. The Character Builder is the simply best tool I've seen as a Player and DM for the past 15 years of D&D internet life.

For example, I used some of the open grave rituals from Character Creator without getting the book.
I never plan to buy Martial power 2 or 3 or arcane power 2. I'll just renew my CBuilder subscription for a couple of months after the books I like are out. 90% of the material is ready to use immediately, and for the 10% that is like "At will, arcane, implement, weird-thing", I'll check in the bookstore the next time what "Weird-thing" powers do.
"You truly see what a person is made of, when you begin to slice into them" - Semirhage
"I am not mad, no matter what you're implying." - Litalia
My DMGuild work!
User avatar
Ken of Ghastria
Champion of the Maiden
Champion of the Maiden
Posts: 1508
Joined: Wed Dec 03, 2003 10:17 am
Location: In the marshes of New Jersey
Contact:

Re: 5e announced!

Post by Ken of Ghastria »

True, but many businesses will much prefer the "guaranteed" income of a subscription over the one-time-only purchase of a book. It's the same rationale behind the ridiculously great discounts on magazine subscriptions ("Get 12 months for only 15% of the cover price!"). Predictable income from a subscription always trumps one-time "maybe they'll buy it" income. So, in general, I think that's something WotC is content to live with.
"There are three rules for writing a novel. Unfortunately, no one knows what they are."
--W. Somerset Maugham
User avatar
HuManBing
Evil Genius
Evil Genius
Posts: 3748
Joined: Fri Jan 28, 2005 9:13 am
Contact:

Re: 5e announced!

Post by HuManBing »

Wait, you pay an ongoing subscription fee for use of the Character Builder?
User avatar
Scipion_Emilien
Evil Genius
Evil Genius
Posts: 246
Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2005 6:54 pm

Re: 5e announced!

Post by Scipion_Emilien »

The WoTC character builder is part of the D&D insiders package subscription deal which also include access to Dungeon magazine and Dragon magazine.

While I think Pathfinder books sell more than 4e book, I agree that the subscription model of WoTC seem to be a good way to make profit and they perhaps enjoy a good market position because of it.

Which make an annoucement of 5e so soon more puzzling if that's the case.
User avatar
alhoon
Invisible Menace
Invisible Menace
Posts: 8844
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2003 6:46 pm
Location: Chania or Athens // Greece

Re: 5e announced!

Post by alhoon »

HuManBing wrote:Wait, you pay an ongoing subscription fee for use of the Character Builder?
Nope, you pay a subscription fee to download the Character builder which includes all books and a ton of magazines up to the time your subscription ends.
So, it's not as much a "subscription" as it's a "I pay 10$ once, and I have access to all books and magazines so far".

I plan to pay the subscription's fee near the time the 4E is about to finish. That means that with 10$ I'll have legal and very easy to use access in all of 4E books, while I've bought like 5-6 of them.
Even if we add the 20$ I've already paid a year and a half ago or so it's a hell of a bargain.
Sure, I would still need to buy the new monster manuals (where are they now in number?) and books that detail planes etc. But as far as powers and feats go, I'll have everything.

More or less, I plan to buy another Monster manual at some point*, and the underdark book. Perhaps a book for shadowfell if there's one out (and if they ever bring it to Greece, so far I mostly find adventures).
Oh, and I plan to buy more map folios and adventures. :)

* Unless they decide to put out the monsters out for free, as they seem to do with their Beta monster thing. I just find it easier from the book. What I would love would be a PDF of monster manuals. So I can use "find" instead of flipping pages. After all, I make copies of monsters in a piece of paper anyways.

PS. Adventurer's vault books are propably a waste of money. Get the items from the Character builder.
"You truly see what a person is made of, when you begin to slice into them" - Semirhage
"I am not mad, no matter what you're implying." - Litalia
My DMGuild work!
User avatar
Drinnik Shoehorn
Evil Genius
Evil Genius
Posts: 1795
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2003 6:28 pm
Location: Tiptree, Home of Jam

Re: 5e announced!

Post by Drinnik Shoehorn »

alhoon wrote:
HuManBing wrote:Wait, you pay an ongoing subscription fee for use of the Character Builder?
Nope, you pay a subscription fee to download the Character builder which includes all books and a ton of magazines up to the time your subscription ends.
So, it's not as much a "subscription" as it's a "I pay 10$ once, and I have access to all books and magazines so far".

I plan to pay the subscription's fee near the time the 4E is about to finish. That means that with 10$ I'll have legal and very easy to use access in all of 4E books, while I've bought like 5-6 of them.
Even if we add the 20$ I've already paid a year and a half ago or so it's a hell of a bargain.
Sure, I would still need to buy the new monster manuals (where are they now in number?) and books that detail planes etc. But as far as powers and feats go, I'll have everything.

More or less, I plan to buy another Monster manual at some point*, and the underdark book. Perhaps a book for shadowfell if there's one out (and if they ever bring it to Greece, so far I mostly find adventures).
Oh, and I plan to buy more map folios and adventures. :)

* Unless they decide to put out the monsters out for free, as they seem to do with their Beta monster thing. I just find it easier from the book. What I would love would be a PDF of monster manuals. So I can use "find" instead of flipping pages. After all, I make copies of monsters in a piece of paper anyways.

PS. Adventurer's vault books are propably a waste of money. Get the items from the Character builder.
I'm sorry to be the one who tells you, Al, but the Character Builder's been online only for about a year now. You can't just download it and update periodically, you have to have a DDI subscription to access it. You can still use the old builder if you've got it, but the numbers are wrong and you don't get the latest content. However, there are fan-made patches for it, if you can find them.
"Blood once flowed, a choice was made
Travel by night the smallest one bade" The Ballad of the Taverners.
The Galen Saga: 2000-2005
Post Reply