[Non-Ravenloft] [Not what you expect] Wizards vs. TSR

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Matney X
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[Non-Ravenloft] [Not what you expect] Wizards vs. TSR

Post by Matney X »

Lemme clarify before we go any farther -- I am not going to go into a long tirade that TSR was better as a business than Wizards (that's obviously been proven by history... Wizards wins), and I'm not going to argue that Wizards' simplification of D&D has lead to less awesome gaming sessions (that's entirely up to your DM and your gaming group).

What I've come here, today, to discuss is my belief that TSR actually cared more about player immersion than Wizards does.

My first, primary, and only example (I'm sure I'll find more) comes from the Forgotten Realms module "Ruins of Undermountain."

In 1991, Ed Wood wrote the following:
This room is connected by tiny vent-shafts to certain shop-cellars in the city above. When first entered by the PCs, the room contains a rack, on which hangs a suit of bright silvery chain mail and a scabbarded long sword. Both glow with a strong blue-white aura.

Sitting on the floor in front of the rack are three armored orcs, playing at dice. Each has a cold, cooked whole rabbit on a
skewer, for a snack, and the three share a jug of bad "“black"” beer.

The orcs scramble up, with grunts and oaths, to defend themselves. They wear rusty, dirty, roughly-patched armor, and
each has a battle axe and a black-bladed scimitar.

The chain mail on the rack is finely made, but the magic on it only prevents rust, scrapes and dents and any dirtying from blood, dirt or the like from ever occurring. This magic, though not greatly useful for adventurerers other than fastidious priests of Sune, makes it glow constantly, equal in brightness to a light spell. It has no other magical properties. A dispel magic quells its glow for only 2-5 rounds.

The blade is a cursed sword -2; once touched, it always teleports into the wearer ’s hand, and cannot be made to stop
glowing. A wish or limited wish will leave it behind, as will severing the hand!
None of that is read-aloud text.

In 2005, Matthew Sernett decided to rehash Ruins of Undermountain through a series of Dungeon or Dragon, or just web-only, articles.
His take on the same room:
The floor about the door is strewn with caltrops, and the walls of this dusty room bear engravings of robed figures bearing staffs, wands, scrolls, spellbooks, and other symbols of arcane spellcasting. It also holds three snarling orcs warriors! Already on their feet when you enter, they draw their weapons and shout at you in their crude language.
Three orc warriors rest in this room. Their squad was on patrol in the northern part of level one of the dungeon when three trolls attacked it. These three fled through the tunnels along with two companions, and a troll stayed close on their heels. A trap claimed one orc, and the troll stopped to eat it. The remaining four orcs continued to flee, and they finally decided to rest in this room. Confused by their long flight through the dungeon, the orcs sent their least injured companion to scout and get their bearings. She hasn't returned. Now healed and ready to continue, the orcs are settling an argument about what to do by playing a game of knucklebones. One orc wants to set out together to find their tribe; another wants to find a way to flee to the surface, fearing that the tribe won't accept them after their cowardice and long absence; and the third wants to look for their scout.

Although eager for the outcome of their contest, the orcs are worried about being trapped in the room (they don't know about the secret door), and they keep an ear cocked for sounds outside their room. (DMs may want to allow the orcs to make Listen checks of their own.) If confronted by PCs who outnumber them, the orcs try to frighten them off, shouting in Orc and brandishing their weapons. The orcs attack wounded PCs or a number of PCs of equal or smaller number. In either case, the orcs attempt to flee if the fighting goes poorly, jumping over the caltrops and heading north and west.
Look, Matthew, I don't care if you have the last 20 years of a monster's back story figured out if the players will probably never know about it (because, let's face it, they're going to kill the orcs and not ask questions. Because orcs.). Sweet, they were playing a dice game just like they were 14 years earlier, but the players aren't going to know that. Oh, they could question the orcs and discover a troll is wandering the halls? Yeah, not gonna happen, because no party of adventurers in the history of ever has walked into a room of weapon-bearing, snarling, orcs and thought "We should subdue these guys and ask questions about the rest of the dungeon. They obviously know what's up."

And where's the cursed item? Where's the useless chain mail? Where's the damn flavor of knowing that this room, if you light a big enough fire, will cause some shop-cellars to smell like smoke?

So, in conclusion, I've come to this: I don't care about your back story if the players never have a reason to know it. In Ed's version, the players are still going to kill the orcs without a second thought, but they'll know that they were doing something other than waiting to spawn like a video game sprite. Ed's orcs have lived a fuller life than Matthew's, and people who have played through it can probably recount the time they came across three orcs playing dice and drinking in the room with the cursed longsword. No one will recount the time they walked in on a room with orcs ready to fight them.

/rant
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Re: [Non-Ravenloft] [Not what you expect] Wizards vs. TSR

Post by Gonzoron of the FoS »

I'm gonna go ahead and move this to the proper forum. (As you said, it's not Ravenloft-related. Horror=>Dark Beyond, RPG=>Roleplaying Games, Horror+RPG=Ravenloft=>General Forum).

Also, I respect your attempt to not make this an edition-bash.... but it's treading close to the line, so let's call this a pre-emptive warning to everyone to please watch where you take this thread. I'll be monitoring closely, and if it turns into: "TSR was great and WotC sux," or some variant thereof, I'll shut it right down.

-----------

Taking my moderator hat off, I think this example is more of a difference of author intent, not a corporate edict, but that's just my take.
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Re: [Non-Ravenloft] [Not what you expect] Wizards vs. TSR

Post by MichaelTumey »

Personally, all my games include a level of immersion and the system rules have never had anything to do with it. Immersion is built by the GM and player's level of participation, not the system. I've never had problems creating player immersion in 1e, 2e, 3x, or Pathfinder and I never relied on the system to help me create that - it was always my own skillset at story telling, etc.

I've played in plenty of 1e and 2e games where the particular campaign failed in achieving immersion, of which had nothing to do with the system, but everything to do with a GM with poor storytelling skills.

I won't argue there may be elements of a given game system that enhances the possible immersion experience, but even then a poor GM will still fail to achieve immersion if he isn't skilled nor experienced at accomplishing that.

Rules don't create immersion, only the level of participation by GMs and players, always.

I have several released published adventures for the Kaidan - Japanese horror setting (PFRPG), and everyone run through those adventures profess how greatly immersive the experience was, more so than any other D&Desque game they've ever played - and that's using Pathfinder, which arguably is further from 2e roots. It's the setting, the adventure, the GM and the players making it happen, not the rules.
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Re: [Non-Ravenloft] [Not what you expect] Wizards vs. TSR

Post by Matney X »

Gonzoron of the FoS wrote:I'm gonna go ahead and move this to the proper forum. (As you said, it's not Ravenloft-related. Horror=>Dark Beyond, RPG=>Roleplaying Games, Horror+RPG=Ravenloft=>General Forum).

Also, I respect your attempt to not make this an edition-bash.... but it's treading close to the line, so let's call this a pre-emptive warning to everyone to please watch where you take this thread. I'll be monitoring closely, and if it turns into: "TSR was great and WotC sux," or some variant thereof, I'll shut it right down.

-----------

Taking my moderator hat off, I think this example is more of a difference of author intent, not a corporate edict, but that's just my take.
I really don't like bashing editions -- I have my preferences, as does everyone, but I agree with the Dungeon Bastard: Does it have dungeons? Does it have dragons? Then I want to play! So, I absolutely don't want to make this an edition-bash.

Now, another thread of "What would you take from each edition for your own game" might be nice, so long as it's kept in a positive light, but I digress.

I agree, this is very much a differences of author intent, or just difference in authors in general. Matthew Sernett was handed a complete module that was written by an author who is regarded as one of the best D&D authors of all time (in a setting that he invented, no less), and I think he saw the room and gleaned key points and tried to make a story of a room that didn't have one. Three orcs, check. Playing dice, check. Fight, check. In my opinion, he should have left well enough alone, but that's just mine.

The one thing I really wanted to point out is that we very rarely get a chance to side-by-side 2e and 3e authors in the same world space. I failed at that intent, but we might get interesting conversation, nevertheless.
MichaelTumey wrote:Rules don't create immersion, only the level of participation by GMs and players, always.
I agree, mostly. Some rule sets really encourage roleplaying and immersion, while others encourage blind hack-and-slash. I have a friend who argues that D&D is entirely a combat game, because the books hardly touch roleplaying or non-combat scenarios, and his characters play like that. I keep meaning to pull out some 1e books that talk a lot about roleplaying but are light on combat rules to show him it's not always like that -- it's just assumed that modern players understand roleplaying, and only want rule books to hold hard and fast rules.

Also, thanks for reminding me that I need to check out Kaidan. :)
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Re: [Non-Ravenloft] [Not what you expect] Wizards vs. TSR

Post by Zilfer »

You might be surprised. I can tell you I currently have an Orc follower with my paladin that worships a god of death. He's Lawful Neutral, and hunts Evil Necromancers, and the undead that cause an unnatural end to life or prolong life. He's not a big fan of immortality, and when the party and a band of dwarves they were escorting fended off the orcs. 1 of them was left, so we could question him for information about down here in the underdark. I asked him what his last wishes were before anyone could kill him since worshiper's of Kelemvor will see to people's last wishes and he "didn't want to die." so I defended the orc. Diplomacy criticalled the dwarves to not killing him and putting up with him and convinced my Party. I changed his name for his new life instead of being called "shortbow" I named him "Blacksword." The DM had him blacken his sword to fit his new name and he's followed my paladin ever since calling him many different names such as.... Bonehunter, Lifeguardian, Grave Protector, Skeleton Destroyer, Skull Slayer, among other things related to what I do. >.> I really should "Demon hunter" to that mix since he wear's a blood demon around his neck in a bottle. (non metagamingly let out a sucubus and sent her on her way with a cloak of his. xD)

Anyways, My group has also not always attacked first unless attacked, so if they try and 'scare' them away with words. (usually one of us know's orc anyways so we can communicate with them) My group might actually try talking to them rather than all out attacking them if I tell them the Orc's draw weapons and snarl, but do not move towards you. They'd probably draw weapons as a reflex as well but only my more chaotic groups would kill them on sight. It really depends on the character they are playing.

I do know that yeah orcs are generally bad though so i could see why most people would just straight out attack them.
There's always something to lose.

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Re: [Non-Ravenloft] [Not what you expect] Wizards vs. TSR

Post by Matney X »

Zilfer wrote:You might be surprised. I can tell you I currently have an Orc follower with my paladin that worships a god of death. He's Lawful Neutral, and hunts Evil Necromancers, and the undead that cause an unnatural end to life or prolong life. He's not a big fan of immortality, and when the party and a band of dwarves they were escorting fended off the orcs. 1 of them was left, so we could question him for information about down here in the underdark. I asked him what his last wishes were before anyone could kill him since worshiper's of Kelemvor will see to people's last wishes and he "didn't want to die." so I defended the orc. Diplomacy criticalled the dwarves to not killing him and putting up with him and convinced my Party. I changed his name for his new life instead of being called "shortbow" I named him "Blacksword." The DM had him blacken his sword to fit his new name and he's followed my paladin ever since calling him many different names such as.... Bonehunter, Lifeguardian, Grave Protector, Skeleton Destroyer, Skull Slayer, among other things related to what I do. >.> I really should "Demon hunter" to that mix since he wear's a blood demon around his neck in a bottle. (non metagamingly let out a sucubus and sent her on her way with a cloak of his. xD)

Anyways, My group has also not always attacked first unless attacked, so if they try and 'scare' them away with words. (usually one of us know's orc anyways so we can communicate with them) My group might actually try talking to them rather than all out attacking them if I tell them the Orc's draw weapons and snarl, but do not move towards you. They'd probably draw weapons as a reflex as well but only my more chaotic groups would kill them on sight. It really depends on the character they are playing.

I do know that yeah orcs are generally bad though so i could see why most people would just straight out attack them.
That's really cool of your group. Too many groups attack first and ask questions later.

I ran that particular room for my group on Saturday, and they actually tried to talk around a fight (which was interesting, because they're 4th level, and orcs are CR 1/3)... We have a new player playing a dwarf, and I had to remind him that dwarves generally hate orcs, and he ended up starting the fight, but it was after quite a bit of talking.
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Re: [Non-Ravenloft] [Not what you expect] Wizards vs. TSR

Post by Jester of the FoS »

Some of the blame of the above can be put on the writer.
Ed Greenwood is a worldmaker, storyteller, and novel writer. WotC is primarily a game company that hires people good at making game mechanics who might be able to write a little.

An editor might also have some impact. As it was for a free web-only piece, there was likely a little less editing.
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Re: [Non-Ravenloft] [Not what you expect] Wizards vs. TSR

Post by Zilfer »

Matney X wrote:
Zilfer wrote:You might be surprised. I can tell you I currently have an Orc follower with my paladin that worships a god of death. He's Lawful Neutral, and hunts Evil Necromancers, and the undead that cause an unnatural end to life or prolong life. He's not a big fan of immortality, and when the party and a band of dwarves they were escorting fended off the orcs. 1 of them was left, so we could question him for information about down here in the underdark. I asked him what his last wishes were before anyone could kill him since worshiper's of Kelemvor will see to people's last wishes and he "didn't want to die." so I defended the orc. Diplomacy criticalled the dwarves to not killing him and putting up with him and convinced my Party. I changed his name for his new life instead of being called "shortbow" I named him "Blacksword." The DM had him blacken his sword to fit his new name and he's followed my paladin ever since calling him many different names such as.... Bonehunter, Lifeguardian, Grave Protector, Skeleton Destroyer, Skull Slayer, among other things related to what I do. >.> I really should "Demon hunter" to that mix since he wear's a blood demon around his neck in a bottle. (non metagamingly let out a sucubus and sent her on her way with a cloak of his. xD)

Anyways, My group has also not always attacked first unless attacked, so if they try and 'scare' them away with words. (usually one of us know's orc anyways so we can communicate with them) My group might actually try talking to them rather than all out attacking them if I tell them the Orc's draw weapons and snarl, but do not move towards you. They'd probably draw weapons as a reflex as well but only my more chaotic groups would kill them on sight. It really depends on the character they are playing.

I do know that yeah orcs are generally bad though so i could see why most people would just straight out attack them.
That's really cool of your group. Too many groups attack first and ask questions later.

I ran that particular room for my group on Saturday, and they actually tried to talk around a fight (which was interesting, because they're 4th level, and orcs are CR 1/3)... We have a new player playing a dwarf, and I had to remind him that dwarves generally hate orcs, and he ended up starting the fight, but it was after quite a bit of talking.
Yeah that's cool if it fits your group. I mean everyone's different, but I like the blurring of black and white. :D
There's always something to lose.

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