Falk-fury rages on!

[jamesfirecat]

If one is using the higher magic/more guns/more demihumans version of the setting presented in 3E...

Falkovnian witches
Clerics of Hala dragooned into service as healers.

Falkovnian storm-mages
Wizards who specialize in elemental magics. They developed the shower cantrip and cloudburst 1st level spell. Great for damping gunpowder!

Gonne-rats

A monsters borrowed from Iron Kingdoms, renamed and reworked. These aren't my original creation.
Basically rodents that gobble gunpowder like candy.
Hitting them or setting them on fire can cause a small explosion!

In Ravenloft, these might have been bred by Drakov's Ministry of Science as a way of screwing up powder supply for enemy nations.

Here is MY take on Vlad/ my understanding of his character.

There's a famous saying... that goes roughly like this...

"Amateurs study tactics. Veterans study strategy. Professionals study logistics." Or "Amateurs talk about tactics, but professionals study logistics." Because that version I can find sourced to - Gen. Robert H. Barrow, USMC (Commandant of the Marine Corps) noted in 1980


Vlad Darkov used to be the leader of a band of mercenaries.

Despite all his pretensions of being a king and a great ruler of men, deep down he's still that same leader of a band of mercenaries. He's never moved beyond the "tactics" phase of that particular saying, because small unit tactics were what mattered most to him as a mercenary leader.

He doesn't have the right mindset to be a king or a general and it shows, oh but it shows in what he does to Falkovnia.

All that stuff you came out with about ways to take away the enemies ability to use gunpowder, that's a great idea, but I'm not sure it would ever occur to Vlad, or that he'd be willing to do it, because to do so would be to admit that guns are tactically useful and if they're tactically useful he should be using them but he isn't so he'd be an idiot, and he can't be an idiot because he as a hardened soldier has to know more about warfare than the dandies, fops, wizards, and women who are in command of those kingdoms that border him, because he's a real fighting man whose spent his entire life fighting!

Vlad Darkov is the Dunning–Kruger effect slamming headfirst into the Peter Principle, much like John Bell Hood he might have been competent as a unit commander, but he's a hot mess as a leader of nations or armies.

He's got such a narrow view of the world that he doesn't realize he already has most of the Four Towers nations over a barrel economically when it comes to the grain he exports, because he has tunnel vision about how to take control of others, and you do that by seizing their land at sword point, not by careful trade negotiation!

So, why doesn't he like firearms but is okay with Lamordian war machines?

My theory goes like this.

In real life, anyone can use a gun, and use it relatively effectively.

People spent a fair portion of their lives training to be English Longbowmen to the point that their skeletons looked different than normal people's because their shoulder's had to bear the weight of the draw. Anyone can grab a gun spend a few weeks/months shooting at paper targets and be ready to go to war.

I think Vlad HATES this. Because it takes all the skill, it takes all the effort, it takes all the "glory" out of war. That's why he hates having actual combat mages, war is supposed to be about getting face to face with the enemy crossing blades, seeing who is superior, letting discipline and moral, where countless hours of time spent training with your weapon mean the difference between life and death! It's not supposed to be about some guy in a dress waving his hands and then lighting countless people on fire just because he was born lucky enough to have magic!

The Lamordian war machines however are probably so specialized that the people who built them also have to be the people who command them/drive them, or at least they have to spend a lot of time training them. They're not a pick up and use weapon which is the kind of weapon that Vlad hates, hates, hates, HATES!

I probably need to re-read the Black Box stuff on Vlad again because at the moment honestly I feel like the Krynn stuff does not to do much to inform his character since I can't recall what time period he came from, or where on an actual map from Krynn he came from, it's like he came from Krynn, but not any part of Krynn or at any particular time frame from Krynn that we're especially familiar with. Vlad came from Krynn, but Soth was a character while he was on Krynn before he came to Ravenloft.

I will be all to ready to eat my words if I review the Black Box stuff and there is Interesting Dragonlance crossover stuff with Vlad's past there.

[jamesfirecat]

Right, if using the Smothering of Reason dread possibility, then Lamordia's powder supply could become an issue if powder is flat out magical.
Unless, as you suggest, the Lamordians have discovered a shortcut. Or powder making just works differently in that country.


I've never quite made up my mind about Lamordia.
On the one hand: ghost carriage, demon under mountain, sea-wolves.
One the other: Science! gone horribly wrong

I'm firmly in the later category (Science gone horribly wrong), Lamordia should have powder that makes their guns work because its a mixture of sulfur, charcoal, and saltpeter, and it'll work anywhere even in an anti-magic field or an area that has just been hit by a disjunction, "Science, it works..." makes far more sense for them to me than them having some sort of quasi mystical "smokepowder".

They should pride themselves on being reasonable and rational... while being blind to the fact that they live in a unreasonable (or at least magical) world.

[ewancummins]

I probably need to re-read the Black Box stuff on Vlad again because at the moment honestly I feel like the Krynn stuff does not to do much to inform his character since I can't recall what time period he came from, or where on an actual map from Krynn he came from, it's like he came from Krynn, but not any part of Krynn or at any particular time frame from Krynn that we're especially familiar with. Vlad came from Krynn, but Soth was a character while he was on Krynn before he came to Ravenloft.

I will be all to ready to eat my words if I review the Black Box stuff and there is Interesting Dragonlance crossover stuff with Vlad's past there.

I'm reminded of a Spartan king (I forget which one) being shown a war machine that hurled missiles and exclaiming something like ''Oh , Herakles, the glory of war has perished!"

Another possibility is that Vlad , while not caring for boomsticks, is less stick-in the-mud about them than he is afraid of peasant rebels armed with harquebuses.
He imposes gun control for the same reason may regimes have done so in real history: to control his population.
Doesn't he also restrict the other weapons available to most citizens?

[ewancummins]

RE Thenol:

Basically a human medieval-ish realm ruled by the evil clerics of Hith.
With zombie, skellie, and fanatic troops alongside noble levies.
Oh, and Bakali lizard-man mercs for amphibious assaults!

I think Human-Bing has suggested that a formative life experience of clerics being mainly with evil ones has made Vlad a bit edgy about clerics in general. And given the way that Hith's high priest subverted the kingdom of Thenol...

Sure Vlad worked for them as a merc--but did he ever really trust them?

[ewancummins]

http://dragonlancenexus.com/lexicon/ind ... tle=Thenol

[jamesfirecat]

I'm reminded of a Spartan king (I forget which one) being shown a war machine that hurled missiles and exclaiming something like ''Oh , Herakles, the glory of war has perished!"

Another possibility is that Vlad , while not caring for boomsticks, is less stick-in the-mud about them than he is afraid of peasant rebels armed with harquebuses.
He imposes gun control for the same reason may regimes have done so in real history: to control his population.
Doesn't he also restrict the other weapons available to most citizens?

You do have that entirely right (on the controlling what weapons his citizens can have).

Once again I'm going by my memories of Gaz 2 and 3rd edition stuff, but I'm pretty sure having any sort of weapon other than a bow or dagger can get you in pretty serious trouble with any soldier who spots you.

[ewancummins]

Right, if using the Smothering of Reason dread possibility, then Lamordia's powder supply could become an issue if powder is flat out magical.
Unless, as you suggest, the Lamordians have discovered a shortcut. Or powder making just works differently in that country.


I've never quite made up my mind about Lamordia.
On the one hand: ghost carriage, demon under mountain, sea-wolves.
One the other: Science! gone horribly wrong

I'm firmly in the later category (Science gone horribly wrong), Lamordia should have powder that makes their guns work because its a mixture of sulfur, charcoal, and saltpeter, and it'll work anywhere even in an anti-magic field or an area that has just been hit by a disjunction, "Science, it works..." makes far more sense for them to me than them having some sort of quasi mystical "smokepowder".

They should pride themselves on being reasonable and rational... while being blind to the fact that they live in a unreasonable (or at least magical) world.

Right, in that version the Lamordians' vaunted rationality is in fact superstition and ignorance. It's plainly not how the world works.
Only by hunkering down in their snowbound villages and shunning much that comes from the outside world do the 'rational' Lamordians manage to keep their worldview intact.

The Smothering of Magic, as described in the Gaz, was a low percentage chance of spell failure, right?
So it's not like magic won't work, period, in Lamordia.

[ewancummins]

I'm reminded of a Spartan king (I forget which one) being shown a war machine that hurled missiles and exclaiming something like ''Oh , Herakles, the glory of war has perished!"

Another possibility is that Vlad , while not caring for boomsticks, is less stick-in the-mud about them than he is afraid of peasant rebels armed with harquebuses.
He imposes gun control for the same reason may regimes have done so in real history: to control his population.
Doesn't he also restrict the other weapons available to most citizens?

You do have that entirely right (on the controlling what weapons his citizens can have).

Once again I'm going by my memories of Gaz 2 and 3rd edition stuff, but I'm pretty sure having any sort of weapon other than a bow or dagger can get you in pretty serious trouble with any soldier who spots you.

Right, I think that pretty much follows the 2E Domains of Dread notes.
Bows are presumably okay for hunting, but I'm guessing strolling through town with a war bow and a quiver full of bodkin arrows will raise some eyebrows.
Daggers are just big knives, a common tool.

A smarter, better ruler (than Vlad Drakov) would arm his subjects and treat them decently.
But Vlad doesn't trust the common rabble with proper weapons, because he's a foreign conqueror who entered Falkovnia with fire and sword. He didn't win the love of the people at the start; he seized and held it all by naked force. He's not a rightful king. So he oppresses them all the more to crush even the hint of rebellion, which further reinforces the need to keep them from obtaining weapons.
Vlad's legitimacy comes from the sword. He's a tyrant, not a real monarch.

At least, that's one way to look at it.

[The Lesser Evil]

Vlad is an interesting character because he's got all these outdated notions vaguely resembling warrior's honor or some such. On the other hand he's a horrible monster with few scruples (Neutral Evil rather than Lawful Evil), so if he sticks to any kind of code it's only to enhance it's own prestige and to never admit he was wrong. Winning prestige, respect, and, ultimately, fear is a big thing he's into- he didn't start wanting to be a king until all the nobles and stuff started criticizing him for his brutality etc (Gaz II p. 140) Vlad doesn't hold onto these old ideals because he's too stupid not to use them (he's quite intelligent). Rather, abandoning his old style of bloody warfare would be tantamount to losing face by admission he made a mistake, a loss of status that might very well be fatal for somebody like him (at least in his eyes.)

Now of course, like a lot of extremist hardliners, Vlad can entertain a certain level of hypocrisy by making special exceptions that don't (to him) mean giving into the enemy. The Ministry of Science developing ways to make special mutant shock troopers is merely enhancing the natural abilities of the noble warrior, same as with the mages developing the magic arms and armor. They don't replace the warrior or debase him, just augment him.

Similarly, trade serves Vlad in a few ways: first, it earns him a few scraps of credibility he seeks so much to last him until his major offensive plans are carried through. Second, it makes the enemy dependent on him, which gives him a strategic edge when it comes time to take his enemies apart. Vlad is barbaric, often quite direct, and has his own preconceived notions about war, but that doesn't necessarily mean he'll throw weapons like stealth and deception to the wind. These are merely different ways in which war is won. Perhaps not as pure as the directness of a stab to the gut, but they have their place alongside his soldiers. Third, he's gotta get some cash from somewhere to fund all his pet projects of war (see below).

I see Vlad has having a fascination, even preoccupation with war and destruction. As a man who is larger than life, war machines may just reflect in his eyes weapons on a much more massive scale, thus perhaps giving him a perspective of awe for them. It's been commented in the books he has a tendency to blow a lot of resources on fairly esoteric and useless war machines, ones that may as suggested earlier may require some special training or knowledge. In this case, the war machines mean taking the warrior to his ultimate conclusion.

[ewancummins]

As described in the Black Box, Vlad Drakov is a "superb" tactician with a excellent grasp of how to use terrain to his advantage. He fights dirty and he fights to win. He dislikes magic but he uses it (thus his gauntlets of ogre power and rod of flailing).

He has a 15 INT, quite a bit higher than average.

I don't think Vlad is stupid.

I think the game designers added more magic and more guns to the setting.

I don't get the impression from reading the Black Box that guns are commonplace things. None of the listed militias and enforcers use them. Guns aren't even mentioned, so far as I can tell. But they do start getting some attention in early modules and sourcebooks. VR compares a loud nopise to musket fire in his description of the Child-Vampire, I think. Pretty sure there's a blunderbuss in Feast of Goblyns-- but it's an unusual, possibly out world, piece of technology.

Nor do spell-casters seem to be all that common, although this sort of thing is not really defined by the materials. But one can certainly look at the early materials and decide that Ravenloft may have fewer NPC spellcasters for hire, magical services in cities, and so on than, say, much of the Forgotten Realms campaign setting.
This could just be a function of a smaller world with fewer people.

I also note that nothing in the Black Box says he won't use gunpowder. That's a later idea. Does it appear in the 2E Hardback Domains of Dread? I know Falkovnia is listed as CL 7, Medieval, there. That's the book that introduces the CL system.
But gunpowder is a medieval invention...
Does the anti-gunpowder policy originate in the 3E GAZ series?
I'm not saying I think it was bad game design/poor writing. Not at all. But I am curious as to why it was done, when cannon would have meshed so neatly with other war machines.

Gaming anecdotal note:
I seem to recall playing in one Black Box based 90s game in which Vlad Drakov wanted to obtain gnomes in order to put the little guys to work building cannon.

[jamesfirecat]

Nor do spell-casters seem to be all that common, although this sort of thing is not really defined by the materials.

To be perfectly fair to Vlad and Ravenloft, it's not that the way the books were written started adding more magic to the setting.

It's that in the change from Black Box (2nd edition) to Gazetteer (3rd edition) changes to D&D itself took place.

I've only played 3rd/3.5 edition and never second so I can't speak with perfect knowledge but here is my understanding.

In second edition magical an non magical characters were balanced and of equal power/had their own separate spheres to a certain degree. (At least compared to what would come next...)

Then you went into third edition and suddenly it's all wizard batman, Clericzilla and I'm a bear wearing armor made for bears who rides on top of another bear (who I've trained so that he can wear armor to and possibly has some magic ear rings) while full casting (possibly to summon more bears) with a D8 hit die, int +4 skill points, a skill, spell and class feature list that makes me next to impossible to ambush and the ability to make any sort of point buy system go cry in a corner because who cares what my starting strength or dex was turning into an animal flat out replaces it?

Magic just dominates 3rd edition, to the point that I'm fairly certain some people did the math and a 20th level fighter level fighter has a difficult time against a 13th level wizard, and a next to impossible one against a 15th level wizard in anything resembling a fair fight.

Thus as magical became more powerful in D&D (and not just Ravenloft) what used to be a the darklord equivalent of a charming quirk became comparable to a major tactical blind spot not because of the universe he lives in but because of the system that universe and every universe related to ran upon.

So, how "fair" or not it is to mock Vlad for refusing to use actual battle mages and instead stick to just having them churn out +X swords and armor or similar is left up to individual tastes.

[ewancummins]

Nor do spell-casters seem to be all that common, although this sort of thing is not really defined by the materials.

To be perfectly fair to Vlad and Ravenloft, it's not that the way the books were written started adding more magic to the setting.

It's that in the change from Black Box (2nd edition) to Gazetteer (3rd edition) changes to D&D itself took place.

I've only played 3rd/3.5 edition and never second so I can't speak with perfect knowledge but here is my understanding.

In second edition magical an non magical characters were balanced and of equal power/had their own separate spheres to a certain degree. (At least compared to what would come next...)

Then you went into third edition and suddenly it's all wizard batman, Clericzilla and I'm a bear who rides fighting another on top of another bear while full casting with a D8 hit die.

Magic just dominates 3rd edition, to the point that I'm fairly certain some people did the math and a 20th level fighter level fighter has a difficult time against a 13th level wizard, and a next to impossible one against a 15th level wizard in anything resembling a fair fight.

Thus as magical became more powerful in D&D (and not just Ravenloft) what used to be a the darklord equivalent of a charming quirk became comparable to a major tactical blind spot not because of the universe he lives in but because of the system that universe and every universe related to ran upon.

So, how "fair" or not it is to mock Vlad for refusing to use actual battle mages and instead stick to just having them churn out +X swords and armor or similar is left up to individual tastes.

Yeah, I think you are right.

This is why I think my next Ravenloft game may be run with AD&D 2e rules.

I have heard good stuff about 5E, but I'm really not in the market for a new system.

[The Lesser Evil]

I also note that nothing in the Black Box says he won't use gunpowder. That's a later idea. Does it appear in the 2E Hardback Domains of Dread? I know Falkovnia is listed as CL 7, Medieval, there. That's the book that introduces the CL system.
But gunpowder is a medieval invention...
Does the anti-gunpowder policy originate in the 3E GAZ series?
I'm not saying I think it was bad game design/poor writing. Not at all. But I am curious as to why it was done, when cannon would have meshed so neatly with other war machines.

There's nothing hard within 2e that I can find. The closest thing that I could find is a mention of Dementlieuse firearms "easily defeating" the invading Falkovnians in the Book of Sorrows netbook article "Faces of Deception" (the Josephine Chartreaux entry).

Champions of the Mists lists several domains that firearms are appropriate for. There's a whole bunch of them bordering Falkovnia, but not Falkovnia itself. (which would imply something was interfering with Falkovnia integrating firearms into its arsenal.)

Domains of Dread (p.24) says that Mordent, Dementlieu, Richemulot, and Borca have mutual defense treaties against Falkovnia. This would imply that Falkovnia has tried to invade them at some point. However, pre-3e, any non-Darkon invasions were never mentioned to my knowledge. Therefore we have a hole in the lore to fill. Hence details on Falkovnia's invasions of domains other than Darkon were filled in with third edition. Now, we need to have some good reasons (or at least, apparent reasons) for why Vlad Drakov's superior numbers falter before some of the more culturally advanced domains that depend less on magic than Darkon does. (Domain closures and darklord interference can do a lot, but they don't provide an explanation for the public eye as to why Vlad's attacks were defeated.) Hence, the use of firearms provides a more naturalistic way of thwarting Drakov.

[ewancummins]

I'm pretty sure the public is to an extent aware of border closures, as per the Black Box on page 61. People may not necessarily know that the border of the entire domain has been shut, but stories of strange phenomena along the borders are common. Few people settle close to most domain borders for that reason.
Some of the effects are subtle, but others are not. Walls of flame or skulls, for example.

Are border closures two-way seals?

The Black Box text on page 61 says that some darklords can close their borders, ''preventing any traveler from escaping.''
The language in specific entries usually refers to the way someone trying to leave will be blocked or turned back. In some places the word "sealed'' is used, which might seem to imply a two-way closure. But the text blocks almost always refer to travelers prevented from escaping, with nothing about not being able to enter.


It may depend on the border and the darklord, no?

It seems that D'Honaire cannot prevent Falkovnia from invading by sealing the border, but he can still cut the Dementlieu-to-Falkovnia movement of troops, couriers, prisoners, loot, and so on by closing the border.

Then, as noted in some 3E materials I no longer have (I'm still cheesed I lost my Paizo PDFs of the Gaz series in a hard drive crash ) Dominic does his mind-control on some Falkovnian officers and subverts the invading force.

[jamesfirecat]

I'm pretty sure the public is to an extent aware of border closures, as per the Black Box on page 61. People may not necessarily know that the border of the entire domain has been shut, but stories of strange phenomena along the borders are common. Few people settle close to most domain borders for that reason.
Some of the effects are subtle, but others are not. Walls of flame or skulls, for example.

Are border closures two-way seals?

The Black Box text on page 61 says that some darklords can close their borders, ''preventing any traveler from escaping.''
The language in specific entries usually refers to the way someone trying to leave will be blocked or turned back. In some places the word "sealed'' is used, which might seem to imply a two-way closure. But the text blocks almost always refer to travelers prevented from escaping, with nothing about not being able to enter.


It may depend on the border and the darklord, no?

It seems that D'Honaire cannot prevent Falkovnia from invading by sealing the border, but he can still cut the Dementlieu-to-Falkovnia movement of troops, couriers, prisoners, loot, and so on by closing the border.

Then, as noted in some 3E materials I no longer have (I'm still cheesed I lost my Paizo PDFs of the Gaz series in a hard drive crash ) Dominic does his mind-control on some Falkovnian officers and subverts the invading force.

You have it pretty much right. Sometimes it's a two way seal sometimes it's only one way.

There's no defined term for this in the Ravenloft lore but I refer to it as the difference between a "hard close" and a "soft close".

A "soft close" is Borca where the water/any liquid you drink turns into a poison that kills you if you leave. You're fine so long as you stay in Borca. Doesn't stop people from entering your nation.

A "hard close" is Richemulot where the entire nation's border is crammed with rats that eat anything that tries to go in or anything that tries to go out.

There don't seem to be any sort of hard and fast rules (it has nothing to do with the strength of the Domain Lord as far as I can tell) over who gets a hard and who gets a soft close. Barovia with a cloud of poison death is another hard close but Soth had a soft close in Sithicus that would drive you inside if you tried to leave but do nothing to you if you pushed through it and entered the domain.