Café de Nuit

Having previous looked at Tepest, Forlorn and Sanguinia, the next Domain on my list is Nova Vaasa.

So, to begin with, my knowledge of Nova Vaasa is based on 2e material, so Black Box, Red Box, Domains of Dread, The Awakening, RLMCII (Desmond LaRouche) and The Enemy Within.

The general feel I get of this Domain is that is resembles the American southwest (Arizona and parts of New Mexico, Colorado, Utah and Texas), but colonised by Russians. The terrain, flora and fauna support the former, whilst the names of the majority of the ruling families support the latter.

Furthermore, if we alter the ruins/tombs found within the Koshka Bluffs to Pueblo-style cliff dwellings, rather than an out-of-place Egyptian tomb as described in ‘The Awakening’, this adventure (with a few cosmetic changes) now actually feels like it’s part of the ‘history’ of the Domain, rather than the jarring oddity that it currently is.

However, the major change I would make regarding this Domain in this ‘Dread Alternative’ is the Darklord. Sir Tristen Hiregaard/Malken has had a troubled history, with at least three canon variants of his origin. I have read the various threads supporting one variant or another, or trying to reconcile all variants into one cohesive whole, or making Malken the remnants of Romir/a Caliban taken in by Romir, etc, etc.

I have no issue with the Tristen Hiregaard/Malken character, I just don’t feel that his ‘curse’ warrants Darklordship or that he suits the style of this Domain. I fully intend to use the character, utilising the version of his origin presented under Desmond LaRouche’s entry in RLMCII, but feel he is better suited to the streets and alleys of Paridon. Not only would he add an additional factor to the ongoing conflict between the Doppleganger clans, but the dual nature of his fractured personality would make it impossible for him to be either have his thoughts read or be replaced by the Dopplegangers. But I digress…

So, if there is no Tristen Hiregaard/Malken, who rules Nova Vaasa?

Well, having appropriated the Nosferatu part of Baron Urik von Kharkov for my reworking of Sanguinia, we’re still left with the werepanther part and a more suitable Russian sounding name than Hiregaard (‘High Regard’, really?) Based on what I feel the ‘flavour’ of the Domain is, and the prevalence of Plains Cats as the apex predator, it would appear that this aspect of von Kharkov is a more suitable character – he just needs a tweaked back-story…

Five families left the Vaasi homelands, packing all their possessions into wagons and seeking new lands to colonise and exploit – the Bolshniks, Vistins, Rivtoffs, Chekivs and Kharkovs. After a long and arduous journey, they discovered a new land, similar enough to their own that they dubbed it Nova Vaasa. Expanding across the territory, they came into contact with the indigenous natives, a simple folk living in harmony with the land, who referred to themselves simply as ‘The People’. Each family dealt with the natives occupying what they now considered was their land in their own fashion.

The patriarch of the Kharkov family, Oleg, believed in a peaceful co-existence with the natives and tried to instil this view in his family. However, his son and heir, Yuri, believed that the only way to deal with the natives was to drive them from ‘their’ land through violence and chafed under the restrictions imposed by his father.

A disaffected member of the tribe occupying the lands claimed by the Kharkovs felt the same way, and although both Yuri and the tribesman held differing views on whom the land belonged to, their similar temperament created a bond between the two.

After a drunken evening where both men railed against the perceived failings of their fathers, the tribesman let slip one of the secrets of the tribe – the ability of braves to assume the form of their spirit animal, hunting unfettered by the morality of man. Yuri, fascinated by this, plied his ‘friend’ with alcohol until the tribesmen revealed the ritual that would allow one to harness this ability. Yuri had realised that should he gain this ability for himself, he could arrange for the ‘accidental’ death of his father without any suspicion falling upon himself, and then, as the new patriarch of the Kharkov family, drive the remaining natives off ‘his’ land.

Having gathered the necessary items, Yuri retired to a secluded cave on the Kharkov lands and began the ritual, hoping for a spirit animal strong and vicious enough to allow his plan fruition. After ingesting the necessary herbal mixtures, he was wracked with pain, writhing on the ground as the potion and ritual took their effect. Bones cracked and sinews stretched, as his body contorted and muscles reformed, and after what seemed like a lifetime of pain, Yuri rose reborn, as a great cat a black as his soul. It was time to pay his respects to his father…

Whilst the Kharkov family were well aware of the dangers posed by the Plains Cats and protected their holdings appropriately, they could not possibly foresee an attack by a beast with the mind of a man, especially a man who was intimate with the precise details of their holdings. Years of pent-up aggression and rage were unleashed as Yuri revelled in his bestial form and it was not only his father that perished that night. Finally managing to restrain his bestial impulses, Yuri retreated and returned to his two-legged form.

Returning to the family holdings, he feigned shock and horror at the slaughter, railing against the cruel gods who would do this to his family. Once a semblance of order had been restored, Yuri argued that it was unnatural for such a beast to attack their holdings, suggesting that some kind of dark sorcery had been involved. He blamed the natives, implying that through some dark agency they had driven the beast to attack and that such an act should not go unpunished.

The remains of the Kharkov family and their retainers, reeling from the savage attack, were easily swayed by his arguments and an armed force descended upon the natives camp, demanding retribution. Had Yuri not been present, fanning the flames, cooler heads would have prevailed. However, the reasoned arguments of the chief were shouted down by Yuri, who cut him down where he stood and commanded his people to raze the camp to the ground.

During the carnage, Yuri came face to face with his opposite, and realising that he could be betrayed, ran him through. As the brave fell to the ground, realisation flooding his eyes, choking on his own blood, he began to chuckle. Yuri furiously demanded to know the reason for the laughter.
“You have taken our power as your own, you have taken our land as your own, you have betrayed both your people and mine, all for selfish gain. As you have claimed the Land, so will the Land claim you...”

As the last word spilled from the brave’s mouth, his eyes glazed and Yuri fell to his knees, pain wracking his body. He felt the change coming upon him and stumbled from the camp, tearing at his now restrictive clothes. A red mist descended upon his mind and the remainder of the night was a blur, until he awoke, naked and alone, in the form of a man. Crawling forward he plunged his face into a nearby stream to quench his burning thirst, then recoiled in horror from what was reflected. Whilst the face looking back at him resembled his own, the general structure and hue was that of a native. Looking down at his body and limbs, cold terror gripped him as he realised the import of the brave’s words. As he had embraced the powers of the natives and claimed their land, now had the land claimed him as one of its own…

Yuri Kharkov, once a member of the founding families of Nova Vaasa, was now an outcast from his people, considered to be part of the uncivilised remnants of the natives who once populated the land. The remaining natives instinctively recognise him as unnatural and so he is an outcast from the people he now resembles. Yuri owns and rules the land, but holds no temporal power. He has retained the ability to shift form between that of a great cat and that of a man, but can never regain his ‘true’ face.

It’s a bit rough, but what do people think so far?

I think I missed something. Why do you feel like Nova Vaasa needs to be reworked? Is there part of it that isn't working for you?

The only tweak I'm proposing for my version of Nova Vaasa is an alternative Darklord, as I don't feel that Sir Tristen Hiregaard/Malken is the correct 'fit' for this Domain.

From what I can gather, Malken is the true Darklord, who may be a Caliban taken in by Romir who assumes the form of 'Sir Tristen' or the remnants of Romir's personality parasitically posssessing members of his bloodline. As I said above, I have no particular issues with this character, I just feel he would be better suited to another realm, such as Paridon.

As one variant origin suggested that 'Malken' was able to control cats (from The Enemy Within, I believe), it just seemed appropriate to use the aspect of von Kharkov I had left over once I'd used the Nosferatu/White Fever aspect for Sanguinia in Nova Vaasa, as it seemed, in my mind, to fit better.

From there, I extrapolated on these aspects and my perceptions of the Domain to try an create a cohesive whole. Obviously, there are as many versions of the Demiplane as there are DM's, so this is just me sharing my thoughts on what I plan to do with the Domain.

Of course, having taken von Kharkov from Valachan and used aspects to create two separate, but neighbouring, Darklords, I now have a Core Domain knocking about with no-one in charge...

Interesting, but this all seems to be more appetizer than main course, do you have plans to describe what the current situation in Nova is like, who is in charge politically if it's darklord isn't? What it's religious situation is like?

I do like the idea of bringing the caverns from the awakening into being part of the place's natural history, but to me that dove tails perfectly with Nova Vassans worhsiping cat deities (Ravenloft numbers filed off equivalent of Bastet and Sekhmet) before the Lawgiver became the dominant religion, and also can tie in with Malken cat powers/gaining using a "revival" of one of the ancient cat themed deities as a front for his criminal activities, though is there even going to be a criminal mastermind in your version of Nova Vaasa?

Here is something that might help you a bit -
http://fraternityofshadows.com/forum/vi ... f=1&t=4422
and I might have a copy of the map that disappeared somewhere, if you want

Lord_Pruitt – I had seen your reworking of Nova Vaasa and as the flora, fauna and terrain parts tied in with my vision, I was planning on ‘borrowing’ these aspects.

Jamesfirecat – Apologies for being a little unclear regarding the overall political and religious aspects of the Domain. I was planning on using the remaining aspects as is. So the political rulership of the Domain historically lay with the five founding families, until the Kharkovs were effectively wiped out by Yuri acts of betrayal. The land assigned to the Kharkovs was then equally divided amongst the four remaining families, with the cycle of stewards rotating between the four, until Othmaar decided he wanted to become ‘king’. The Church of the Lawgiver (or Bane, if you’re still running 2e) remains the dominant religion, having been imposed on the natives by the Vaasi, similar to how the settlers in the American southwest imposed their religion on the Native Americans.

Interestingly, the burial customs of the Zapotec people of northern Mexico (which sort-of falls into my real-world analogue for Nova Vaasa) included the burial of their dead with their valuables, which ties in nicely to the ‘tombs’ from The Awakening. The Apaches, who occupied the area which I’m basing my version of Nova Vaasa on, believed that the cry or scream of the cougar was an omen of death and the black (or melanistic) variant of the cougar is known as the Florida Panther. See, it’s all coming together nicely…

As for Malken the crimelord? That’s Kharkov. The High Priest of the Cult of B’alam (renamed Cult of Sekhmaa)? Kharkov. The Black Duke, supposed fiend and leader of the Brotherhood of the Whip? Kharkov.

As Kharkov has been ‘embraced’ by the Land (or Dark Powers), as long as Nova Vaasa is in existence, he is effectively immortal. Whilst his physical form can be destroyed, his consciousness will transfer to the nearest feline within the Domain, which will then become Kharkov. Unlike the original version, my version of Kharkov has the standard three forms of the werebeast with a slight variation. He can assume the form of a man (although this is of the ‘native’ form described in the first post, rather than his original body), the hybrid man-beast form and that of a great cat, in this case a black ‘panther’. However, he can also assume the form of any natural feline that exists within the borders of the Domain, so could become a Plains Cat or a domestic cat, although in each variation, he will be black. All natural felines within Nova Vaasa are his to command and he can project his mind into any natural feline within the domain, similar to the ability described in von Kharkov’s original write-up. (NB: Only natural felines, so wizard’s familiars, Midnight Cats, etc. are beyond his control). He can instinctively recognise and identify any feline werebeast that he meets and is considered to have an 18 Charisma (or equivalent) in respect of these creatures. The same applies to the Paka, although he has been granted the ability to force a Paka to assume its true form, should he so wish. The Paka, for their part, believe Kharkov to be their deity, the Cat Lord, and he has yet to disabuse them of this notion.

As he is considered a second-class citizen by the Vaasi people, as he resembles the indigenous natives and is shunned by the very same natives, who instinctively recognise his cursed status and refer to him as ‘The Black One’, Kharkov exists on the periphery of society, in the shadows. As these shadows attract the less savoury sort, he has built up a network of thieves, spies, assassins and various other minions. However, being at nature a betrayer, whilst he demands loyalty form his minions, he is quite happy to leave them to their fate should they fail him. Think of him as a cross between Professor Moriarty and Blofeld.

As he is effectively immortal, he views the people of Nova Vaasa as his playthings and creates elaborate plans and schemes to entertain himself, as noted above. And should his plans be thwarted, he will fade into the shadows, utilising his shape-shifting to assume a form that will be ignored or overlooked, such as his ‘native’ form or that of an alley cat. However, having embraced his feline nature, he will then plot against those who have thwarted him and many who have crossed him have awoken in elaborate trap-filled mazes…

“Look at the little mice…see how they run…” – Yuri Kharkov aka ‘Malken’

This set-up makes sense, but it seems a little bland. One of the things I liked about both Kharkov and Tristen/Malken were their dual natures and the dissonance caused by the conflict of said dual natures. Kharkov-Malken doesn't seem to have that inner strife. His curse is thwarted by the underground empire (and even cult) he's built and how he views those that spurn him as insignificant mice.

Personally Carrion Crow, I think you're limiting yourself. Why mess around with old canon domains when you can create something brand new for a creation like this: http://www.fraternityofshadows.com/foru ... f=1&t=9198 or this: http://www.fraternityofshadows.com/foru ... f=1&t=3261 both of which would be excellent settings for the domain you've outlined. Far more consistent, I think, than the core which is terribly eurocentric in nature. Then again, being in the core could feed the curse. Even if he were to escape his domain, he would still be a black person surrounded by white people. in a white person's world. A world he once sought to dominate but is now no longer his. Perhaps you could have his domain begin in one of the places I linked to above and appearing in the core after the Mists take it. Though personally, I also think you should screw together unique versions for both of the other settings,too. Also please tell me you kept the panther shaped castle. I LOVE the panther shaped caste.

Thank you both for your feedback and critique.

Manofevil – I hadn’t seen those threads, so thank you for pointing me in their direction. A lot of interesting ideas there.

The Lesser Evil – You have a very valid point. I think that I was concentrating on fitting all the parts together to make a cohesive and consistent whole, I kind of lost sight of one of the major underpinnings of Ravenloft, mainly that the Darklord should labour under a curse. As my revision currently stands, my Darklord seems to be enjoying himself a bit too much. ("Run, little mice, run! Mwuh-ha-ha!")

I quite like what I've developed so far, but it does need further tweaks. There's something niggling at the back of my mind regarding the duality of the Darklord's nature and the counterpoint between the indigenous 'darkskins' and the 'civilised' colonists, which I feel should be tied to Kharkov's curse is some way, but I can't quite put my finger on it.

Any suggestions regarding this would be appreciated.

Maybe Kharkov should feel compelled to help out the natives, who he despises and who spurn him. As his curse made him one with the land, he is now the unwilling defender of the natives; He could feel every lash, every unjustice every wrong the natives get, as they were doing on himself; The natives, in turn could be unable to see the good Kharkov does for them and revile him as the cause of every evil.

Thanks for the input, Mistmaster. Interesting idea, but it’s very similar to how I’ve re-worked Mircea in my ‘Thoughts on Sanguinia’ thread and as Sanguinia ends up neighbouring Nova Vaasa in my Core, having neighbouring Darklords suffering almost the same type of ‘curse’ seems a bit odd.

However, I have been giving it some thought and think I’ve come up with a better alternative to my original idea. I originally wrote this as part of Kharkov’s backstory;

“As the last word spilled from the brave’s mouth, his eyes glazed and Yuri fell to his knees, pain wracking his body. He felt the change coming upon him and stumbled from the camp, tearing at his now restrictive clothes. A red mist descended upon his mind and the remainder of the night was a blur, until he awoke, naked and alone, in the form of a man. Crawling forward he plunged his face into a nearby stream to quench his burning thirst, then recoiled in horror from what was reflected.”

However, Kharkov did not wake in the form of a man, but a horrific blending of both the man he was and the beast he had become and was now forever trapped in this form. This ‘civilised’ man had embraced the beast within and now his form reflected the duality of his character. He wanted to claim the Kharkov lands as his own, but due to his actions, the Kharkov lands had been divided amongst the remaining founding families and no longer existed. He wanted to be part of the ‘civilised’ ruling families, but is now no longer even remotely human. He wanted the power of the native tribes and whilst this was partially granted, is now considered an abomination by every remaining native in the land.

He now haunts the ruins of the Kharkov holdings, desperately trying to reclaim his birthright and recreate the ‘civilisation’ he has lost. Unfortunately, his paw-like ‘hands’ are unsuited to this task and the ruins of the Kharkov manor are filled with broken, half-formed attempts to recreate the trappings of what he considers ‘civilisation’. Dressed in a ragged, hooded robe, skulking amongst the ruins, he rages against the Gods who have reduced him to the level of an animal, until his bestial urges overcome him and he rampages across the plains, slaughtering anything or anyone he comes across.

After reports of this so-called ‘Beast of Borchava’ filtered through to the capital, Prince Othmar dispatched a small force to investigate and deal with this menace. They never returned. A larger, better armed force was then dispatched and reported success, having cornered the ‘beast’ and slain it.

However, after a period of peace, the reports began again, for after his ‘death’, Kharkov had awoken unharmed in the ruins of the Kharkov manor and the cycle began once more…

Gothic version of Beauty and the Beast, minus the Beauty part?

I hadn't thought of it in that way, but it kind of is, isn't it? No beauty though. Or singing candlesticks...

Once I'd thought about it I got such a strong mental image of this raggedy cat-man, trying to make simple objects such as bowls or furniture with 'hands' ill-suited to the task, then snarling and smashing everything up, tearing off his robe and storming off into the night that it just seemed...right. Certainly makes him a tragic figure, always trying to reclaim what was formerly his, but never being able to.

Once I checked what the area in which the former Kharkov lands (previously Hiregaard lands) was called, it seemed appropriate that he would be known as the Beast of Borchava.

Carrion Crow wrote: Jamesfirecat – Apologies for being a little unclear regarding the overall political and religious aspects of the Domain. I was planning on using the remaining aspects as is. So the political rulership of the Domain historically lay with the five founding families, until the Kharkovs were effectively wiped out by Yuri acts of betrayal. The land assigned to the Kharkovs was then equally divided amongst the four remaining families, with the cycle of stewards rotating between the four, until Othmaar decided he wanted to become ‘king’. The Church of the Lawgiver (or Bane, if you’re still running 2e) remains the dominant religion, having been imposed on the natives by the Vaasi, similar to how the settlers in the American southwest imposed their religion on the Native Americans.

Interestingly, the burial customs of the Zapotec people of northern Mexico (which sort-of falls into my real-world analogue for Nova Vaasa) included the burial of their dead with their valuables, which ties in nicely to the ‘tombs’ from The Awakening. The Apaches, who occupied the area which I’m basing my version of Nova Vaasa on, believed that the cry or scream of the cougar was an omen of death and the black (or melanistic) variant of the cougar is known as the Florida Panther. See, it’s all coming together nicely…

As for Malken the crimelord? That’s Kharkov. The High Priest of the Cult of B’alam (renamed Cult of Sekhmaa)? Kharkov. The Black Duke, supposed fiend and leader of the Brotherhood of the Whip? Kharkov.

As Kharkov has been ‘embraced’ by the Land (or Dark Powers), as long as Nova Vaasa is in existence, he is effectively immortal. Whilst his physical form can be destroyed, his consciousness will transfer to the nearest feline within the Domain, which will then become Kharkov. Unlike the original version, my version of Kharkov has the standard three forms of the werebeast with a slight variation. He can assume the form of a man (although this is of the ‘native’ form described in the first post, rather than his original body), the hybrid man-beast form and that of a great cat, in this case a black ‘panther’. However, he can also assume the form of any natural feline that exists within the borders of the Domain, so could become a Plains Cat or a domestic cat, although in each variation, he will be black. All natural felines within Nova Vaasa are his to command and he can project his mind into any natural feline within the domain, similar to the ability described in von Kharkov’s original write-up. (NB: Only natural felines, so wizard’s familiars, Midnight Cats, etc. are beyond his control). He can instinctively recognise and identify any feline werebeast that he meets and is considered to have an 18 Charisma (or equivalent) in respect of these creatures. The same applies to the Paka, although he has been granted the ability to force a Paka to assume its true form, should he so wish. The Paka, for their part, believe Kharkov to be their deity, the Cat Lord, and he has yet to disabuse them of this notion.

As he is considered a second-class citizen by the Vaasi people, as he resembles the indigenous natives and is shunned by the very same natives, who instinctively recognise his cursed status and refer to him as ‘The Black One’, Kharkov exists on the periphery of society, in the shadows. As these shadows attract the less savoury sort, he has built up a network of thieves, spies, assassins and various other minions. However, being at nature a betrayer, whilst he demands loyalty form his minions, he is quite happy to leave them to their fate should they fail him. Think of him as a cross between Professor Moriarty and Blofeld.

As he is effectively immortal, he views the people of Nova Vaasa as his playthings and creates elaborate plans and schemes to entertain himself, as noted above. And should his plans be thwarted, he will fade into the shadows, utilising his shape-shifting to assume a form that will be ignored or overlooked, such as his ‘native’ form or that of an alley cat. However, having embraced his feline nature, he will then plot against those who have thwarted him and many who have crossed him have awoken in elaborate trap-filled mazes…

“Look at the little mice…see how they run…” – Yuri Kharkov aka ‘Malken’

I think there's one problem with this particular set up, if you remove the Malken as a cursed part of Tristen from the set up, you take something big away from him/ Kharkov isn't as interesting a figure as Malken is because, who is he supposed to "fight" with?


Malken is interesting (to me) even if he may seem flat and two dimensional at times, because he's something of a perfect encapsulation of the Joker Versus Batman Dynamic of two foes locked in an eternal struggle, where it has degenerated to the point that both of them have no idea what they would end up doing if either one of them actually managed to win.

All of Nova Vassa is hopelessly corrupt from the poor peasants right on up to Othmar himself the richest most powerful ruler in the land, the only exception is Tristen and the people who he brings under his banner for the purpose of fighting Malken. Malken in turn can't effectively strike against Tristen himself for the obvious reason, and if he's somewhat aware of the curse/at least has a gut feeling about it, he won't want to go around murdering Tristen's family either, (maybe add a little to his darklord curse that he's not allowed to strike at women who are close to Tristen but he doesn't love) so he's unable to effectively leverage his lack of morals into a complete and total victory.

Thus Tristen is the eternal Batman to Malken's Joker, the Holmes to his Moriarty, the Xaiver to his Magneto, the Reed Richards to his Doctor Doom, Malken hates HATES, HATES the way that Tristen keeps him from gaining complete and total control over Nova Vassa and pulling off any crime he wishes in the land... but if Tristen wasn't around, would it even be worth breaking the law in the first place if there's no one left to uphold it?


Having this dastardly shadowy crimelord pulling the strings in Nova Vassa isn't as interesting if we don't have someone to oppose him, and the only reason they wouldn't have killed him is because their curse as a darklord won't let them for some reason...

Kharkov as a criminal mastermind with no "shining hero" opposing him isn't as interesting as watching Malken and Tristen fight with each other for the soul of Nova Vaasa....

That's what I like about this forum - you suggest an idea and someone comes back with a way of looking at a particular character that you might not have previously thought of.

I had not considered the Batman/Joker analogy in relation to Sir Tristen/Malken and really, really like it. I seem to remember that there was an Elseworlds comic 'Batman: Two Faces' which suggested that both Batman and the Joker were the same person, just opposite sides of the coin.

However, saying that, whilst I do like Sir Tristen/Malken as a character, I just don't feel that Nova Vaasa is the right setting for him. But now you've opened my eyes to a new way of looking at the character, one that makes sense to me, I can see certain possibilities for him...but elsewhere.

As I mentioned in the first post, I was planning on transplanting the character to Paridon, as I felt this was a better fit for the character and your comments have now set the fuse burning for this idea.

If we think of Paridon as a turn of the Century Gotham, with Sir Tristen as one of the only righteous men in a city rife with corruption, this equates to the Bruce Wayne archetype. Occupying a possition of power, such as chief of police or somesuch and being uncorruptible, his enemies decided to try and reduce him to their level. Maybe a potion or a Helmet of Opposite Alignment was used, but the end result was that his force of will caused his personality to fragment, with his darker impulses creating firstly his alternate ego of 'Malken', but seeds of darkness spreading out across the city and finding fertile ground in a variety of other places. A doppleganger who had quietly and peacefully blended in with Paridon society suddenly found his head filled with thoughts of conquest and murder. A wooden puppet, doted upon by his creator, suddenly brought to unholy life...

Sir Tristen, the righteous crusader for justice, was now confronted by a veritable 'rogues gallery' to combat, none of which he can truly vanquish, as each criminal is actually a facet of his own personality. And in the background, orchestrating the depredations of these unpleasant individuals, is the gnarled, shock-headed Malken...

NB: I had planned on intergrating Odiare into Paridon as a Pocket Domain, but having a "Little Italy" part of Paridon just seemed to good an opportunity to miss.

Jamesfirecat, I thank you! My players, however, will probably be cursing you!

"Quick, to the Sir Tristen-Signal!"

EDIT: I'd just like to point out that prior to posting the above, I hadn't actually read the "Batman in Ravenloft" thread, so independently came up with the above.