Lawgiver Books?

[Heretic]

Anyone ever got around writing them? Notice we got pretty solid Ezrite books, but none about the Lawgiver.


Cheers!

[DocBeard]

I think the most interesting stuff I've seen on the Lawgiver, flavor-wise, has been the author's notes on Gazetteer V and Nova Vaasa. Sadly, most of them got cut, but the ideas are solid enough that I think they are easy enough to work into the setting.

Personally, I like the idea that the Lawgiver's church has as many different approaches to the faith as there are different approaches to government. They all agree that hierarchy is sacred, but there are so many ways to create, maintain, and enforce the will of that hierarchy that it lends the faith a nearly limitless potential diversity.

[Heretic]

What I'd want to know is if we've someone that's tried giving a shot at elaborating these books in a similar way the 4 of Ezra were written.

Gazetteer V

--- The Truth of Iron - First holy text of the Church of the Lawgiver (p125, p126)
--- The Fetters of Bronze - Second holy text of the Church of the Lawgiver (p125, p126)
--- The Black Trials - Third holy text of the Church of the Lawgiver (p125, p126)
--- Crimson Faith - Fourth holy text of the Church of the Lawgiver (p126)
--- The Book of Stone - Fifth holy text of the Church of the Lawgiver (p126)

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

What I'd want to know is if we've someone that's tried giving a shot at elaborating these books in a similar way the 4 of Ezra were written.

To the best of my knowledge, no. Gaz V is probably the most elaboration on the Lawgiver you'll find.

[High Priest Mikhal]

Or look for old 2e and 3e Forgotten Realms material on the god Bane. That's the outlander god the Lawgiver is based on.

[alhoon]

And much easier to work with. A different approach to Bane, but Bane nevertheless.

[DocBeard]

There's some interesting 4E stuff on Bane, too, showing how you can make the Points of Light Bane different from Classic Bane.

As for the books themselves, I think the problem is, we know the Books of Ezra tell a little of the future, but mostly make the argument for the sect they've been penned by. What do the Lawgiver books say, besides "Wow that's an ominous name."?

[Isabella]

I'd assume a whole lot of religious laws.

[cure]

Given the following I would imagine a defense of slavery: "The other countries . . . were cast into the Hell of Slaves, a netherworld of ceaseless toil for those who flout their rightful position in life." Gaz 5, p. 127

More to the question:

The Truth of Iron: principles of government and moral behavior
Fetters of Bronze: laws and punishments
Black Trials: mythic pseudo-history of creation and fall of humanity
Crimson Faith: theology and cosmology
Book of Stone: prophecies, proverbs and allegories

[Rock of the Fraternity]

Okay, just to be sure - no one's actually tried writing out the four books of Ezra, have they? Beyond the material in the Gazetteers, I mean?

[Heretic]

Found these while googling:

Principles of Government

* PRINCIPLE #1: ALL PERSONS ARE RIGHTFULLY SOVEREIGN OVER THEIR OWN AFFAIRS WHICH DO NOT INFRINGE UPON THE RIGHTS OF OTHERS.

* PRINCIPLE #2: FAMILIES SHALL BE SOVEREIGN OVER ALL FAMILY AFFAIRS WHICH DO NOT INFRINGE UPON THE RIGHTS OF OTHERS OR PRESENT AN IMMINENT, PHYSICAL THREAT TO THE LIFE OF INCLUDED CHILDREN

* PRINCIPLE #3: FUNDAMENTAL RIGHTS ARE SUPERIOR TO ALL EARTHLY LAW AND SHOULD BE SECURED BY A CITIZENSHIP COVENANT DOCUMENT THAT IS ACCEPTED BY UNANIMOUS CONSENT AND NEVER MADE SUBJECT TO MAJORITY RULE

* PRINCIPLE #4: GOVERNMENT SHOULD ONLY BE FORMED BY INITIAL UNANIMOUS CONSENT OF THOSE TO BE GOVERNED BY SUCH, FOR THE SOLE PURPOSE OF PROVIDING MUTUAL DEFENSE FOR THE FUNDAMENTAL RIGHTS OF ALL CITIZENS.

* PRINCIPLE #5: CITIZENSHIP SHOULD BE BY COVENANT AND QUALIFICATION RATHER THAN BY BIRTH, WHEREBY THE FUNDAMENTAL RIGHTS OF CITIZENS, AND THE DUTIES AND RESPONSIBILITIES OF BOTH PARTIES (GOVERNMENT AND CITIZEN) ARE CLEARLY SPECIFIED.

* PRINCIPLE #6: EQUAL JUSTICE (not results) SHALL BE GUARANTEED FOR ALL CITIZENS UNDER CONSTITUTIONAL LAW THAT STRICTLY LIMITS THE SCOPE OF ALL LAWMAKING POWER TO THE DEFENSE OF FUNDAMENTAL RIGHTS.

* PRINCIPLE #7: GOVERNMENT SHOULD BE FINANCED BY USER FEES FOR ALL DIRECT SERVICES TO INDIVIDUALS AND GENERAL TAXES FOR UNIVERSAL SERVICES (DEFENSE, JUSTICE, ADMINISTRATION, AND LEGISLATION); THE LATTER SHOULD BE UNIFORM AND EQUAL FOR ALL CITIZENS.

* PRINCIPLE #8: MILITARY AND POLICE POWER OF GOVERNMENT SHOULD ONLY BE USED WHERE THERE EXISTS A DIRECT THREAT TO THE FUNDAMENTAL RIGHTS OF ITS CITIZENS, AND TO ENFORCE LAWS WHICH ARE CONSTITUTIONAL AND BASED UPON THOSE RIGHTS. ANY ASSISTANCE FOR LIBERTY GIVEN TO FOREIGN NATIONS WHERE A SIGNIFICANT THREAT TO THIS NATION CANNOT BE DEMONSTRATED SHOULD BE ENCOURAGED BY GOVERNMENT BUT CARRIED OUT BY VOLUNTARY MEASURES.

* PRINCIPLE #9: CITIZENS SHOULD BE PRIVATELY ARMED NOT ONLY FOR PERSONAL PROTECTION AGAINST CRIME, BUT TO ACT AS THE ULTIMATE FORCE AGAINST POTENTIAL GOVERNMENT TYRANNY AND AGGRESSION AGAINST THE FUNDAMENTAL RIGHTS DETAILED IN THE CITIZEN COVENANT.

* PRINCIPLE #10: GOVERNMENT MUST BE STRICTLY LIMITED IN ITS POWERS, ESPECIALLY IN THE FOLLOWING THREE AREAS OF UNLIMITED INTRUSION:
1. PROVIDING ANY SPECIFIC BENEFIT TO ANY PERSON OR GROUP, FINANCED BY ANY FORM OF TAXATION, NOT CONSTITUTING A USER FEE.
2. PROTECTING PEOPLE FROM NATURAL DISASTER, SAFETY HAZARDS, RISK TAKING OR ANY OTHER DIFFICULTY NOT CONSTITUTING A THREAT TO FUNDAMENTAL RIGHTS.
3. PROSECUTION OR MAKING ANY ACT A CRIME IN THE ABSENCE OF A SPECIFIC COMPLAINANT OR VICTIM, EXCEPT IN CASES INVOLVING IMMINENT THREAT TO LIFE

For book 1, would be a matter of doing something like this, adding it a Lawgiver and Slavery touch.






The 7 Never-to-be-Forgotten Principles of Government

The Principles

1. Government is force. Every government program, law, or regulation is a demand that someone do what he doesn't want to do, refrain from doing what he does want to do, or pay for something he doesn't want to pay for. And those demands are backed up by police with guns.

You expect that force to be used only against the guilty. But we can see how the Drug War, the foreign wars, asset forfeiture, the Patriot Act, and other government activities have used force just as often against the innocent — people who have not intruded on anyone else's person or property.

In fact, government force is used more often against the innocent than the guilty, because the guilty make it their business to understand the laws that apply to them and stay clear of them. Meanwhile, the innocent, thinking they've nothing to fear, suddenly find that they've innocently violated laws they never heard of.

2. Government is politics. Whenever you turn over to the government a financial, social, medical, military, or commercial matter, it's automatically transformed into a political issue — to be decided by those with the most political influence. And that will never be you or I.

Politicians don't weigh their votes on the basis of ideology or social good. They think in terms of political power.

3. You don't control government. It's easy to think of the perfect law that will stop the bad guys while leaving the good guys unhindered. But no law will be written the way you have in mind, it won't be administered the way you have in mind, and it won't be adjudicated the way you have in mind.

Your ideal law will be written by politicians for political purposes, administered by bureaucrats for political purposes, and adjudicated by judges appointed for political purposes. So don't be surprised if the new law turns out to do exactly the opposite of what you thought you were supporting.

4. Every government program will be more expensive and more expansive than anything you had in mind when you proposed it. It will be applied in all sorts of ways you never dreamed of.

When Medicare was initially passed in 1965, the politicians projected its cost in 1992 to be $3 billion — which is equivalent to $12 billion when adjusted for inflation to 1992 dollars. The actual cost in 1992 was $110 billion — nine times as much.

And when Medicare was enacted, Section 1801 of the original law specifically prohibited any bureaucratic interference with the practice of medicine. Today not one word of that protection still applies. The federal government owns the health-care industry lock, stock, and barrel.

The new program you support will eventually include all sorts of powers and privileges you can't even imagine right now.

5. Power will always be misused. Give good people the power to do good and that power eventually will be in the hands of bad people to do bad.

As Michael Cloud has pointed out, "The problem isn't the abuse of power; it's the power to abuse." Give politicians power and it certainly will be abused eventually — if not by today's politicians, then by their successors.

As P.J. O'Rourke said, "Giving money and power to politicians is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys."

6. Government doesn't work. Because government is force, because government programs are designed to enrich the politically powerful, because you can't control government and make it do what's right, because every new government program soon wanders from its original purpose, and because politicians eventually misuse the power you give them, it is inevitable that no government program will deliver on the promises the politicians make for it.

For years, I've asked listeners during radio interviews to name a government program that has actually delivered on its promises, and no one has been able to do so.

If you think there's a successful government program, you probably don't know how much it actually costs, aren't aware of all its destructive side-effects, have no idea how easily and inexpensively such a thing could be done outside of government, and/or are basing your view of its success on political propaganda.

It doesn't matter whether a program is supposed to do something you want or something you don't want, whether the program is something you consider a proper function of government or something beyond its limits. It won't work. Government programs always wind up disappointing you.

7. Government must be subject to absolute limits. Because politicians have every incentive to expand government, and with it their power, there must be absolute limits on government.

The Constitution provides the obvious limits we must reimpose upon the federal government. Until the Constitution is enforced, we have no hope of containing the federal government.

The present system of unlimited power is like giving a drunken stranger a set of signed, blank checks on your bank account. You are reduced to relying on the honesty and integrity of people you don't even know — and they abuse that trust again and again.

Whether you think government should be bigger or smaller than the limits specified in the Constitution, the first step is to restore absolute limits, and then — if you like — work to change those limits to ones that would be more to your liking.

[NeoTiamat]

Okay, just to be sure - no one's actually tried writing out the four books of Ezra, have they? Beyond the material in the Gazetteers, I mean?

There's some more information on them in the article Anchors of the Faith. Not in full, but a bit.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

There's some more information on them in the article Anchors of the Faith. Not in full, but a bit.

Which is in the Book of Secrets, and written by John Mangrum, so therefore semi-canon. And also awesome.

[Rock of the Fraternity]

Thanks, NT and Gonzoron. ^^ I'll take a look.

[Rotipher of the FoS]

For book 1, would be a matter of doing something like this, adding it a Lawgiver and Slavery touch.

Limitations imposed on government authority? Guaranteed rights of the individual? The government's authority being bestowed by the people rather than divine mandate? Seems to me that the Lawgiver's first book would preach the exact opposite of everything your quotes have to say!