Reverse Powers Check?

[Manofevil]

First, the thread title. Is this actually about reversing an already established Powers Check? I didn't think the rules allowed that but that may be just me.

As I understand it, this thread is about developing something of an antithesis to a powers check---a benefit to using something found in the dark for good rather than evil. It is not about undoing a failed powers check.

On page 104 of the Ravenloft Player's Handbook, there is a section on redeeming oneself and escaping the path of corruption. It goes so far as to say, "It may even be possible for a darklord to redeem his blackened soul---but in all the known history of Ravenloft, not one ever has."

My two-cents on 'reverse powers checks' in the sense just described:


Powers checks should remain always dark and dangerous, and not be used to provide rewards and mechanical advantages for playing a hero. Heroic characters already have access to various good-aligned or heroic spells, classes, feats, etc in the game rules, and adding a 'reverse powers check' will tip the scales too far toward Good, reducing the horror of the setting. No 'light-lords' for me, either.


But my way is surely not the only way. As ever, the DM decides this kind of stuff.

Well, before a character could become a 'light-lord', the DPs would surely destroy them or cast them out. RavenLoft is not the only place in the multiverse after all.

Re- the PC in question. Even if this PC doesn't want to, another good aligned PC might think of using this text to try and address some of the problems caused by and for the created. It would, of course, depend on what insights the text reveals. If it's simply a how-to manual that might be titled 'Build Your Own Created' then there's not really a lot to contribute. If on the other hand, there's some observations about the behavior and such of the Newly-Created, that might be useful in guiding the Created down less destructive paths.

Some of you may be familiar with my fanfic 'The land of Mists' about a Knight of Solamnia from Krynn who gets caught up by the Mists. One of the chapters I have planned for it has him coming to know a fairly new flesh golem I name Isaac and they become companions. Isaac will learn so much of the knight's ways that he will become goodly aligned. The PCs being discussed here may shoot for similar results, but then, the best laid plans and the road to Hell...

[DeepShadow of FoS]

I've been trying follow this and I've gotten lost in some places.

First, the thread title. Is this actually about reversing an already established Powers Check? I didn't think the rules allowed that but that may be just me.

This is not about redemption from a Powers Check, but as others have pointed out, the RAW allow for it. If they didn't, the Furies wouldn't have much to do.

It's about a PC getting a supernatural/extraordinary reward, mechanically similar to that from a Powers Check, from successfully resisting the lure of obsession that is baked into these notes. Having made it through the trial by fire, he gets to keep his soul...and he gets a little something more.

I understand that this PC being discussed is studying some knowledge that has driven others to commit dark acts but does this material include an element of indoctrination that the PC might be vulnerable to.

Absolutely yes. It's the scientific equivalent to the Raiment of Clarity: praises the listener's intellect, warns them about lesser minds, encourages them to ignore laws or mores or rules that would get in the way of their greatness.

Update: I made the PC make knowledge checks every so often to understand the material and get something useful out of it. I also required one Horror check and one Will save per cylinder. He made it through the first one, and I rewarded him with the ability to make a Heal check using Knowledge: Nature, and allowed the player to rearrange skill points to take better benefit of this.

Halfway through the second one, he failed everything, but I allowed another PC to burst in on him and break the thing before it got a full hold on him. He now has a Fascination effect from the failed Horror check, and he's preparing to cast Mending to fix the cylinder and keep listening....

While fully in the throes of being brainwashed, I allowed him a super-heightened version of the knowledge/heal stuff so that he could run a full diagnostic scan on someone just by glancing at them--knowing the state of their liver from how much they drank, etc. This was useful for several plot hooks and foreshadowing with various PC's and NPC's, and for the creepy atmospheric effect that he can't look at a person and see a person, he just sees a collection of organs and tissues and the relative value of these.

What sort of lore is in there besides creating flesh golems?

All sorts of things: life support technology, cell theory, immunology and more. Karl created a system to clean and recycle blood, and made reference to a certain Valachani formula for stimulating blood production after blood loss. That alone is worth the risk--the PC is a dhampir and is trying to manage his blood hunger from consensual donors only. Karl also used a form of spuma vitae that could survive outside of Darkon to heal wounds without scarring--the main reason Angelique has no scars.

The Created are neutral beings, in spite of van Richtens observations.

Van Richten actually left it open for there to be Created of any alignment. He just said they would have a hard time staying good.

That being said, I would really appreciate you labeling Rule 0/opinion/speculation rather than just declaring it a foregone fact.

Powers checks should remain always dark and dangerous, and not be used to provide rewards and mechanical advantages for playing a hero. Heroic characters already have access to various good-aligned or heroic spells, classes, feats, etc in the game rules, and adding a 'reverse powers check' will tip the scales too far toward Good, reducing the horror of the setting. No 'light-lords' for me, either.

Sure, but as I clarified above, this isn't a reward for good deeds. If a good guy reads all three versions of the Raiment of Clarity, made all three saves at DC 20, 25, and 30, and managed to get through it with their sanity/alignment intact, that's not a good deed. It's actually quite risky, even stupid. My argument here is that there might be some "reward" for successfully running that gauntlet. A bonus against undead in combat, or the ability to learn something about a necromancer from how their troops are deployed. This is the same thing, but with mad science.

[ewancummins]

Wouldn't he still get that same mechanical benefit if he succumbed to corruption?


I guess it's just the 'reverse powers check' bit (in the thread title) that doesn't make sense to me. I don't think a PC merits any special reward for not becoming corrupt, mad, or villainous. But it seems you don't either.

A mechanical benefit gained after careful study of the mad science equivalent of one of the DMG's magical tomes? Sure! That's an item effect, not a 'reverse powers' check, at least to me.

Sorry to seem pedantic.



I do like the effects you used. Cool stuff!

[Mistmaster]

@Manofevil your Darkpowers maybe, mine wants balance.
@Deep There is only a canon, my home canon. Seriously you are right.

[Five]

Van Richten actually left it open for there to be Created of any alignment. He just said they would have a hard time staying good.

Are you referring to the Timetable for Personality Dissolution (Van Richten's Guide to the Created, Appendix For The DM, PC Golems)?

[tomokaicho]

Sure, but as I clarified above, this isn't a reward for good deeds. If a good guy reads all three versions of the Raiment of Clarity, made all three saves at DC 20, 25, and 30, and managed to get through it with their sanity/alignment intact, that's not a good deed. It's actually quite risky, even stupid. My argument here is that there might be some "reward" for successfully running that gauntlet. A bonus against undead in combat, or the ability to learn something about a necromancer from how their troops are deployed. This is the same thing, but with mad science.

That's great, but if he is putting that knowledge out there then he is putting other people at risk. People that had not previously had the means to bring forth the created now will. Give him the rewards, but let it be stained with the blood of the victims of all the created that spawn as a result. This is Ravenloft. Nothing comes without consequences.