Jester's Review of Van Richten’s Guide to Ravenloft

[kourkenko]

The only people bothered by Lyssa being Tatyana are the ones who knew the setting before. I read several reviews on ENworld and everyone of them are enthusiastics. It is perhaps good, we will perhaps see more for the setting, even if average it is better than nothing.

I plan to use the "new falkovnia" in a cluster. Vladeska found herself in her own domain and try, as her father to invade her neighborhood but, contrary to Azalin, this one launch a full blow counter attack and pushed her back. I was thinking about Daglan (yeah i know, it is an old one but it could fit easily) and, since living people needs to feed (a thing WotC forgot) i would put Harlington Farm in the middle. Could be cool for survival horror.

[Mistmaster]

The Farm is Arlington, Harlington Dale is a larger domain I wrote inspired by the Farm.

[onmyoji]

The only people bothered by Lyssa being Tatyana are the ones who knew the setting before.

It shouldn't be limited to those that know the setting. By the virtue (vice?) of her surname, Lyssa is very clearly a relation of Strahd's. Which immediately makes things problematic for any DM who has Strahd chase Tatyana's reincarnation like a long-lost love. The fact that she's his brother's granddaughter—revealed only in previous lore—is kind of irrelevant to the issue. Especially given WotC's attempt to "sanitize" Ravenloft for 5E.

— onmyoji

[alhoon]

And Tatyana is supposed to be a pure soul, not a powerhungry monster that would turn a vampire seeking power. That's not Tatyana.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

It shouldn't be limited to those that know the setting. By the virtue (vice?) of her surname, Lyssa is very clearly a relation of Strahd's.

It's not like it's hidden in the text. It calls her a "distant relative of Strahd." We know the grand-niece relation isn't all that distant, but maybe it is in this new reboot. Maybe she's more distant now than in the original lore. Icky still, yes, but 2nd and even 1st cousins marrying isn't universally taboo. What if they are more distant than that? Besides, a key part of the story is that Strahd lusting after Tatyana is never "right", even when they aren't related at all.

To alhoon's point about her pure soul, maybe this version of Tatyana isn't power hungry like the old one. All we get in the blurb is that "her first step to depose Strahd was to become a vampire". So her motives may be more pure than the previous canon version. Whether or not motives matter when becoming an undead predator is for the Dark Powers and DM to decide, but the "good(ish) vampire" trope is not a new one. (Jander, anyone?) Is she still 100% pure? nope, but maybe she's fighting her nature. Maybe she plans to seek a cure or face the sunrise when she achieves her goal of destroying Strahd.

[onmyoji]

Icky still, yes, but 2nd and even 1st cousins marrying isn't universally taboo..

I mean, I agree that it's not universally taboo. It does happen, but I think the bottom line is that it's even more "icky" to me that WotC could introduce a point of order like this despite their obvious quest to make the setting less problematic overall. I mean, between Revamped and VRGtR, they've done at least two retcons (Vistani and Ez) on lore they themselves established with CoS. That being the case, how did something involving incest—whether taboo or not—ever make it to print? I should probably call that they're gonna retcon this Lyssa bit too as soon as they realize it's happened.

I agree with alhoon about the fact that Tatayana is supposed to be a pure soul and recognize that might have easily changed. However, my issue with this is different. If Lyssa is Tatyana, and Tatyana is thus already a vampire, then where is the potential for dread or loss in that adventure? If she's already turned, then death is really the only way to "lose her" at that point. I'm very much pro CoS sessions where Strahd succeeds in turning Ireena because that's a huge point of untapped potential for dread, hopelessness, and "failing forward." Removing that possibility in a Barovia adventure is defanging the beast if you ask me.

— onmyoji

[kourkenko]

To be honest, their are far more "problematic" things in the book than Lyssa.

Btw, i'll use Dementlieu as decribed in Jester's works, i'll just change it a little. For Mordenheim, i just don't know...

[onmyoji]

To be honest, their are far more "problematic" things in the book than Lyssa.

Did I miss something? Do tell. (I'm only a recent convert to Ravenloft, so I'm not as familiar with all the 2E/3E lore as many of you are.)

— onmyoji

[alhoon]

To alhoon's point about her pure soul, maybe this version of Tatyana isn't power hungry like the old one. All we get in the blurb is that "her first step to depose Strahd was to become a vampire". So her motives may be more pure than the previous canon version. Whether or not motives matter when becoming an undead predator is for the Dark Powers and DM to decide, but the "good(ish) vampire" trope is not a new one. (Jander, anyone?) Is she still 100% pure? nope, but maybe she's fighting her nature. Maybe she plans to seek a cure or face the sunrise when she achieves her goal of destroying Strahd.

The "Turning to a bloodhungry monster that sustains its immortality with stolen blood is the first step to a noble cause" is very problematic IMO. You can justify nearly everything with that, including the atrocities of religious extremists or hardcore nationalists.

[onmyoji]

The "Turning to a bloodhungry monster that sustains its immortality with stolen blood is the first step to a noble cause" is very problematic IMO. You can justify nearly everything with that, including the atrocities of religious extremists or hardcore nationalists.

Sounds like rationale for a Powers Check. Tatyana as a darklady, whaaaaaaat?

— onmyoji

[Zilfer]

To alhoon's point about her pure soul, maybe this version of Tatyana isn't power hungry like the old one. All we get in the blurb is that "her first step to depose Strahd was to become a vampire". So her motives may be more pure than the previous canon version. Whether or not motives matter when becoming an undead predator is for the Dark Powers and DM to decide, but the "good(ish) vampire" trope is not a new one. (Jander, anyone?) Is she still 100% pure? nope, but maybe she's fighting her nature. Maybe she plans to seek a cure or face the sunrise when she achieves her goal of destroying Strahd.

The "Turning to a bloodhungry monster that sustains its immortality with stolen blood is the first step to a noble cause" is very problematic IMO. You can justify nearly everything with that, including the atrocities of religious extremists or hardcore nationalists.

Kinda the feeling Ravenloft is usually going for right? Stories that you can almost justify? There's plenty of bad in ravenloft for sure though I'm sure most people living in ravenloft would agree that's far from the worst thing going on out there.

*Looks at Falkovnia as a whole.*

I'm with Gonzoron that such a story would make for a nice twist on the already over told tale. (to many of us at least) You can turn that nob up or down in how corrupting the experience is. I'm sure there are plenty of people that will want their Alucard vampire Lady to fight along side with, after watching Season 4 of Castlevania. (I realize he's a Dhampir but as per the book you can also 'become' a dhampir if i'm not mistaken so maybe she strives to be a vampire but ends up being a dhampir helping fight with the party.) Plenty of ways you can twist that plot hook.

[onmyoji]

I'm with Gonzoron that such a story would make for a nice twist on the already over told tale. (to many of us at least) You can turn that nob up or down in how corrupting the experience is. I'm sure there are plenty of people that will want their Alucard vampire Lady to fight along side with, after watching Season 4 of Castlevania. (I realize he's a Dhampir but as per the book you can also 'become' a dhampir if i'm not mistaken so maybe she strives to be a vampire but ends up being a dhampir helping fight with the party.) Plenty of ways you can twist that plot hook.

I guess that depends on how you play it. Keep in mind that Castlevania is gothic adventure with horror elements, not straight horror. Horror focuses particularly on dread, a major component of which is loss. I mean, if you want to run a more fantasy adventure campaign in Ravenloft, that's perfectly fine. It's obviously adaptable to such things. But for any looking to do a good horror campaign, Ireena's humanity and weakness in battle all plays into that. The person you're protecting doesn't have to be fragile, but again, making her a dhampir or vampire from the get-go removes one major recourse that Strahd has to cause dread without necessarily killing her.

Bottom line: To each their own. I'm not saying you can't work around it. But I can absolutely see how it'd be a significant source of trouble for anyone running a horror campaign.

— onmyoji

[Zilfer]

I guess that depends on how you play it. Keep in mind that Castlevania is gothic adventure with horror elements, not straight horror. Horror focuses particularly on dread, a major component of which is loss. I mean, if you want to run a more fantasy adventure campaign in Ravenloft, that's perfectly fine. It's obviously adaptable to such things. But for any looking to do a good horror campaign, Ireena's humanity and weakness in battle all plays into that. The person you're protecting doesn't have to be fragile, but again, making her a dhampir or vampire from the get-go removes one major recourse that Strahd has to cause dread without necessarily killing her.

Bottom line: To each their own. I'm not saying you can't work around it. But I can absolutely see how it'd be a significant source of trouble for anyone running a horror campaign.

— onmyoji

Most definitely agree, though I don't think Ravenloft is straight horror, I've always imagined it going for Gothic with different elements of horror. (exactly like how you just described Castlevania) they by far are very different of course, but I don't think most would call Ravenloft just a straight up horror game. I've always told my friends when introducing them it's a Gothic Campaign Setting with horror elements.

The newest itteration Curse of Strahd is quoted as "A fantasy-horror adventure for characters levels 1-10, Curse of Strahd provides everything a Dungeon Master needs to create an exciting and memorable play experience." So with this newer stuff and keeping that in mind I think it's along in the same vein of what they are going for when they are mentioning Lyssa Von Zarovich as a potential Tatyana reincarnation.

Edit: Furthermore the very place it takes inspiration from, Bram Stoker's Dracula also had Mina turning into a minion of the night. I can recall a holy cracker leaving a mark, and other signs that she had been corrupted already. So I don't think it's completely out of the question either. (apology for spoilers if you haven't read Dracula)

[onmyoji]

Most definitely agree, though I don't think Ravenloft is straight horror, I've always imagined it going for Gothic with different elements of horror. (exactly like how you just described Castlevania) they by far are very different of course, but I don't think most would call Ravenloft just a straight up horror game. I've always told my friends when introducing them it's a Gothic Campaign Setting with horror elements.

Sorry — I didn't mean to imply that it was straight horror or intended as such. Just that for any of us planning to make it a horror campaign, the narrative probably requires more thought than that.

Edit: Furthermore the very place it takes inspiration from, Bram Stoker's Dracula also had Mina turning into a minion of the night. I can recall a holy cracker leaving a mark, and other signs that she had been corrupted already. So I don't think it's completely out of the question either. (apology for spoilers if you haven't read Dracula)

You make an excellent point, but my counterpoint is that Mina is turning into a minion of the night. She is not one yet. If I might extend the Dracula metaphor, my worry is that "Dracula" would function much more differently if Mina were already a dhampir at the start of the story, rather than becoming one over the course of the story. Narratively, those two things are worlds apart. But of course, Mina turning into a vampire during the story does a substantial amount to inspire dread: pretty much everyone around her knows that she's fallen victim to an almost-unstoppable curse. For all intents and purposes, if they don't kill the Count, she is lost. It was precisely the same when Strahd turned Ireena in our campaign. But that all depended on the story beginning with her not being any sort of vampire.

I hope that clarified my point further. To be clear, I'm not saying that starting Ireena in Lyssa's vampiric body is objectively a bad thing. I am saying it will be more narratively challenging for DMs concerned about narrative and horror, and it might take a really creative one to find a way to draw loss and dread from that hook. Everyone else's mileage can and will vary; I'm certainly well aware of that.

— onmyoji

[Baron Von Stanton]

After some rumination and pondering everyone's general uncomfortableness over the idea that Lyssa Von Zarovich is/may be/could be the current reincarnation of Tatyana, I just thought of something: How would Strahd react to the revelation that his (several-great) grand niece Lyssa is/may be/could be Tatyana's current reincarnation?