Dwarves and Calibans

Discussing all things Ravenloft
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sabbattack
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Post by sabbattack »

Well, since you asked me ( :x meeeh, I thought you did) I give dwarves a completely different racial bonus because of the non-combat nature of my games. Re-designating the +2 vs. orcs to aberrations or calibans(half-orcs anyone :?: ) is weak to say it politely.

My first idea was to give them some bonus to fear/horror saves, but as time progressed I have formed this last edition of my Rloft dwarf based on Warhammer dwarves, who have a certain steampunk feeling with cannons, guns and the like:

(this form incorporates even the unchanged racial abilities)

* +2 Con, -2 Cha. (unchanged)
* Medium (unchanged)
* Base speed 20 feet (unchanged)
* Stonecunning (unchanged)
* Weapon familiarity: Blackpowder weapons
* Stability (unchanged)
* +2 racial bonus vs. poisons (unchanged)
* +2 vs. spells changed to enchantments and illusions only: Dwarves have strong will (some call them plain stubborn) and a powerful sense of their surroundings, thus being more able to disbelieve illusions.
* +1 to hit using blackpowder weapons: Dwarves have an innate ability to use manufactured weaponry from aeons of smithing tradition.
* +1 racial bonus and +1 dodge bonus to AC and -1 Armor Check penalty while in heavy armor: Dwarves have a build that utilises the full potential of a heavy armor's joints and flexibility
* +2 racial bonus to Craft and Appraise (unchanged)

As you have seen, I've completely removed darkvision since the majority of dwarves in Rloft are surface dwellers (at least in my book). Feel free to add it in this alternative, and SURELY feel free to comment on it.
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Post by Faust »

Tobias Blackburn wrote:
At the same time, I'm somewhat wary about making it so common that an entire race has trained itself against it. One of the major things about Lovecraft is that the creatures are so hideous and "wrong" that the mere sight of them blasts the mind. An entire race that has trained from birth to be ready to fight them... it suggests that they would know what they face and be able to prepare themselves.
Well dwarves are really rare and they dwell where abberations are the most likelly to be encountered. I mean barovia is haunted by vmapires but there are not that many vampires, so I guess it could be the same with beholders,broken one and other aberation...
If that were the case, perhaps the +4 to AC against giant should be shifted to +4 on fear/horror/madness against aberrations.
This is actually a good idea! Or maybe simply a +2 to will save? I mean they probably often face enemies who can control the mind...

I just don't like the idea of "Oh, it had tentacles. Let's go ask a dwarf what it was."
Well you first need to find a dwarf... remember that dwarves are probably the rarest player race... and it would amke them more adapted to ravenloft than the typical forgotten realm or dragonlance dwarf and make it more unique.
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Post by Tobias Blackburn »

Faust wrote:
Tobias Blackburn wrote:
At the same time, I'm somewhat wary about making it so common that an entire race has trained itself against it. One of the major things about Lovecraft is that the creatures are so hideous and "wrong" that the mere sight of them blasts the mind. An entire race that has trained from birth to be ready to fight them... it suggests that they would know what they face and be able to prepare themselves.
Well dwarves are really rare and they dwell where abberations are the most likelly to be encountered. I mean barovia is haunted by vmapires but there are not that many vampires, so I guess it could be the same with beholders,broken one and other aberation...
Except that Darkon doesn't exactly bubble over with Lovecraftian terror, and that's here the dwarves exist in numbers. Also, Ravenloft doesn't have an Underdark, so while it is possible that they might come across them in the odd mine tunnel its doubtful that the dwarves encounter them with any regularity.
If that were the case, perhaps the +4 to AC against giant should be shifted to +4 on fear/horror/madness against aberrations.
This is actually a good idea! Or maybe simply a +2 to will save? I mean they probably often face enemies who can control the mind...[/quote]

But whose appearance can blast your sanity. Not all aberrations control the mind, only the higher levels ones do. On the other hand, if you prepare yourself to fight enemies that are physically "wrong", you'll prepare yourself for what they look like.
I just don't like the idea of "Oh, it had tentacles. Let's go ask a dwarf what it was."
Well you first need to find a dwarf... remember that dwarves are probably the rarest player race... and it would amke them more adapted to ravenloft than the typical forgotten realm or dragonlance dwarf and make it more unique.
Actually, I would say that halflings or gnomes were rarer than dwarves. The mountains of Darkon are lousy with them. You'd have just as much chance of meeting a dwarf outside of Darkon as you would a halfling. And while that does mean that they aren't common, and entire race that constantly fights (and obviously wins) against the unknowable encroaching darkness sucks a good chunk of the horror out of aberrations. If they haven't beaten the dwarves in all this time, they aren't going to. You have to completely re-write the dwarves as a dying and insane race in order to keep the Lovecraft-type terror of aberrations in Ravenloft. Without that, aberrations just become difficult monsters that look wierd.
The Remnants have one saying to represent loss, disappearance, exile, and death. It is Shiao Marests, "Taken by The Shadows".
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Post by Jester of the FoS »

Elves are the most common followed by halflings, dwarves and lastly gnomes. Or at least in 2E. Halflings may slightly edge out elves in numbers as they have many, many small communities, or they may not.
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Post by Tobias Blackburn »

cure wrote:Different dwarves in different places face different primary threats. A bonus common to an entire clan in the Sleeping Beast Mountains, abberations or golems, should be different from a bonus common to an entire clan in the Mountains of Misery, undead.
A good point, but a bonus against undead in Ravenloft sees a lot better than it would be against orcs in orther settings.
Igor the Henchman wrote:How about transferring that bonus from giants/orcs to creatures that simply have the 'Earth' subtype?
With the exception of Grave Elementals, what other (earth) subtype creatures would be fairly common in Ravenloft?
David of the Frat wrote:Elves are the most common followed by halflings, dwarves and lastly gnomes. Or at least in 2E. Halflings may slightly edge out elves in numbers as they have many, many small communities, or they may not.
Has anyone ever crunched the numbers for 3e?
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Post by Faust »

I think the most comon is halfling then elves then gnomes and finally dwarves:

Dwarves are only present in darkon andeven there they are less numerous than other races. Their community in lamordia count as less than 1% of the total lamordian pop. While gnome are also present in valachan, hazlan and nova vaasa. As for halfling they are present almost everywhere. And elves have a domain of their own.
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Post by Tobias Blackburn »

The exact number of dwarves doesn't matter (though I would say that there are less halflings that dwarves). Of course, all of this is moot unless someone decides to go through the Gazetters and crunch the numbers. Either way, a race that familiar with aberrations (and has had great success in beating them) sucks a lot of the theat out of them.
The Remnants have one saying to represent loss, disappearance, exile, and death. It is Shiao Marests, "Taken by The Shadows".
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Post by Igor the Henchman »

Tobias Blackburn wrote:
Igor the Henchman wrote:How about transferring that bonus from giants/orcs to creatures that simply have the 'Earth' subtype?
With the exception of Grave Elementals, what other (earth) subtype creatures would be fairly common in Ravenloft?
Same creatures as everywhere else: gargoyles, stone golems, that sort of thing.

As for the demihuman populations, lessee:

Elves: 3.519(Darkon)+643(Falkovnia)+4.128(Sithicus)=8.290 elves
Dwarves: 1.173 (Darkon)=1,173 dwarves
Gnomes:783 (Hazlan)+5.865(Darkon)+643(Falkovnia)+382(Valachan)+2.031(Nova Vaasa)=9.704 gnomes
Halflings: 1.044(Hazlan)+16.422(Darkon)+1.286(Falkovnia)+408=(Dementlieu)+2267(Richemulot)+1.368(Borca)+3.385(Nova Vaasa)=26.180 halflings

Making the order of importance of demihuman population as follows: halflings, gnomes, elves, dwarves. There seems to be twenty times as much halflings as dwarves.

Although, if I may be so bold, I noticed some serious discrepancies in Darkon's population statistics. The domain-at-a-glance announces: "dwarves: 1%", while the dwarven city populations seems to be eight times as much (8,274, to be exact, with 5.050 in Tempe Falls and Corvia alone - and that's not counting those Mountain of Misery colonies).
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Post by Tobias Blackburn »

Igor the Henchman wrote:
Tobias Blackburn wrote:
Igor the Henchman wrote:How about transferring that bonus from giants/orcs to creatures that simply have the 'Earth' subtype?
With the exception of Grave Elementals, what other (earth) subtype creatures would be fairly common in Ravenloft?
Same creatures as everywhere else: gargoyles, stone golems, that sort of thing.

As for the demihuman populations, lessee:

Elves: 3.519(Darkon)+643(Falkovnia)+4.128(Sithicus)=8.290 elves
Dwarves: 1.173 (Darkon)=1,173 dwarves
Gnomes:783 (Hazlan)+5.865(Darkon)+643(Falkovnia)+382(Valachan)+2.031(Nova Vaasa)=9.704 gnomes
Halflings: 1.044(Hazlan)+16.422(Darkon)+1.286(Falkovnia)+408=(Dementlieu)+2267(Richemulot)+1.368(Borca)+3.385(Nova Vaasa)=26.180 halflings

Making the order of importance of demihuman population as follows: halflings, gnomes, elves, dwarves. There seems to be twenty times as much halflings as dwarves.

Although, if I may be so bold, I noticed some serious discrepancies in Darkon's population statistics. The domain-at-a-glance announces: "dwarves: 1%", while the dwarven city populations seems to be eight times as much (8,274, to be exact, with 5.050 in Tempe Falls and Corvia alone - and that's not counting those Mountain of Misery colonies).
Wow... I hadn't realized that. If there is a problem with the Darkon entry, I'll have to go major city by major city to check how accurate it is.

I guess the bonus against earth elemental creatures can be used. I can see plenty of gargoyles in Ravenloft after all. Stone golems.... not so much.
The Remnants have one saying to represent loss, disappearance, exile, and death. It is Shiao Marests, "Taken by The Shadows".
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Post by Jester of the FoS »

Whenever you start number crunching in Ravenloft there always seems to be massive contradictions...

--edit--
Domains of Dread was where I picked up the tidbit that Halflings were the most common. For some reason I got the least common reference swapped from dwarves to gnomes. The book definetly labels the former as being the "rarest of all demihuman kin". Of course the latter are identifed with "none is more scarce or misunderstood than the gnome."
...kay...
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Post by alhoon »

OK. You messed me up!
I can't decide.
All the ideas seem valid and good to me. Skeleton/zombies, aberrations, Earth subtype creatures, deformed humanoids . . .
I'll have to decide
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Post by Rotipher of the FoS »

According to the Gazetteer description of Tepest, hobgoblins in Ravenloft are the goblin race's equivalent of calibans, not a race in their own right. Perhaps the dwarves of Ravenloft know of this alternative origin for RL hobgoblins, and regard human-born calibans as some kind of "goblin taint" that has contaminated their human neighbors. This would also tie into the fact that Ravenloft's humans can be turned into goblyns -- not true goblinoids, but a breed the dwarves might consider linked by their name and behavior -- by evil magic: another sign (in dwarves' eyes) that humans have been infected with a goblinish stain that needs to be kept in check.
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