Is Ravenloft Dead?

[Drinnik Shoehorn]

Actually, I must confess that I really enjoyed the 3e PHB. It made me become a RL DM. And the Gazs are nearly the best publications ever done for the setting, as far as I experienced. The so called *optional rules*, like CoD or VRA however, are books far, far at the end of my *to buy* list...

What I honestly can't understand is why they do *legacies of blood*, a solid book, but with what exact purpose?, and then DT&DL, a compilation of short stories. Now, without having read the later one, I personally don't feel that I can justify 30$ for that.

Desi, baby, I completely agree. But I have to point out Legacy of the Blood has a point, it allows players to make characters who have a closer tie to the setting than the standard Barovian villager and Dark Tales... gives players and DMs what they have been screaming for: adventures and published fiction.

Now, no company trolling here, but while the fan base is demanding concrete measures like Gaz V, a book on the clusters and pocket domains etc. (Or another MotRD supplement), S&S goes another way.

While, of course, I can't judge books I haven't read, I must say that apart from the Gazs, my recent RL investments were all 2e products on ebay. As far as the current releases, I am more than sceptical. -Although, of course, I hope that there'll be a greater concentration on the needs of fans in 2006.

>Hope everyone understands my point. No offense, please.<

See, with one hand S&S gives us a book we've been demanding for ages (Dark Tales) and with the other it takes away a series of books that have proven popular with the fanbase (the gazetteers). The longer Ms Cassada and Ms Rea are allowed to butcher the setting simply reduces the time it will take for Arthaus to cut its losses and drop the line. They're making bad decisions, they don't listen to the fanbase, they stop the one line of books that is successful. Champions of Dorkness might have been a more commerically viable book, but the lack-lustre quality and the shoddy knowledge of the setting meant that people who bought it and don't usually game in Ravenloft will assume that the rest of the books are of a similar quality, not purchase them and the setting declines.

Of course the Gazetteers aren't going to sell if people are being put off from the setting because of shoddy books aimed for a wider audience. I'd like to meet one person who starting buying Ravenloft on the strength of Champions of Darkness. The 6th Gazetteer is a pipe dream, I doubt we'll see it before 2007, and when we do the S storyline will have been butchered by two second rate hacks who should leave the setting alone.

Arthaus should replace them with people who know the setting like Steve Miller, John Mangrum, Ryan Naylor, Rucht Lilivat or Andrews Cermak and Wyatt.

It might sound like I'm simply argueing for a return of the Kargatane, but all I want is the setting to be produced by people who know and care about the setting.

[Le Noir Faineant]

I just always thought KC was... larger.

I'm actually an hour drive away from the city. Interesting night last night, got caught in a sudden storm while driving home, watched a funnel cloud become a tornado just two streets north of me. With all the wind, rain, tornado sirens, and falling tree branches, I drove over a downed power line without realizing it. Yup, I sure do love the rural Mid-West [/sarcasm].

Note to diary: Never, ever, go there...

[Le Noir Faineant]

Desi, baby, I completely agree.

*How dare he...* ... I will end up by you others calling me *Daisy*, won't I?

They're making bad decisions, they don't listen to the fanbase, they stop the one line of books that is successful.

Anyone remembers *that vile woman of Illinois* that killed TSR? -Maybe she's their management teacher.

Arthaus should replace them with people who know the setting like Steve Miller, John Mangrum, Ryan Naylor, Rucht Lilivat or Andrews Cermak and Wyatt.

It might sound like I'm simply argueing for a return of the Kargatane, but all I want is the setting to be produced by people who know and care about the setting.

Really, I repeat, I don't think they're doing a bad job so far.
Both writers, especially Mrs Rhea, are of my favourite RPG designers.
However, the turning point for the setting was the demise of the old Kargatane. That really had that *Gygax leaves TSR* feeling to me.

The recent books, IMHO, had a certain lack of structure (i. e. didn't manage to tell why me to get them). However, it's the first time so far that the setting is structuraly overviewed and updated. I hope they don't loose the line in the middle of the way, or that will be RL's end.

However, let's see what the next months bring and if VGttM fulfills what the fans expect. (*The title, to me, is very esoteric still... Do the Mists really need a guide to be written for them?...But let's see...)

[Jester of the FoS]

The problem is, while you can disagree with the decision to remove the Gazetteers from this year's schedual, you cannot disagree with the reasoning behind it.
And the RL: PHB, while questionable, was kinda a throw-away book no one really wanted but had to be published.
This isn't me taking sides, I'm trying to be neutral on the developers as a moderator/Fraternity member, but they're hardly the source of ultimate evil for the Ravenloft line. The lack of advertising and support from the rest of Swords and Sorcery fits closer into that category. I mean, you see Vampire and WoD adds in almost every RL book but how many 'Loft ads do you think you see in other WW or S&S books?

I do think it is still just a *tad* early to be mourning the line over what could very well be an oversight. This thread pops up every could months and it's been wrong so far. Yeah, it will eventually be right but if you cry that the sky is falling often enough you'll eventually wander into a construction site and be crushed by a dropped girder.

[Coan]

Now, no company trolling here, but while the fan base is demanding concrete measures like Gaz V, a book on the clusters and pocket domains etc.

Actually the Gazetteers don't sell so well as compared to other products. So I imagine the fan base isn't demanding them at all -only the people on the internet (who represent a fraction of the total).

[Desertrising]

That is really my big complaint! I mean the Dark Tales and Distrubing Legends was a good read but why couldn't they have put something concrete in it?

I mean when I found out the Dark Duo actually don't play the game I kind of got a little miffed. Of all the dedicated fans they got to pick someone who dosn't even play. Then we are all crying out for something on the clusters or some such and they gave us what? some good stories.

ARGH!!!!!!!

No offense intended the stories were really good but why can't we get back to cluster's and islands and stuff?

Also somewhere I read they were also doing mask of the Jade dragon or something. Why expand the world when we are still begging for more?

okay enough rant

[Le Noir Faineant]

I mean when I found out the Dark Duo actually don't play the game I kind of got a little miffed. Of all the dedicated fans they got to pick someone who dosn't even play. Then we are all crying out for something on the clusters or some such and they gave us what? some good stories.

On the other hand, Mrs Rhea did two of the very best 2e products, the Guide to Transylvania and Caravans (if I am not mistaken). So, the potential is there and, although I don't want to anger our honoured Kargatane lurkers, but wasn't CoD written by THEM?

[Le Noir Faineant]

Actually the Gazetteers don't sell so well as compared to other products. So I imagine the fan base isn't demanding them at all -only the people on the internet (who represent a fraction of the total).

Really? - But if the Gazs don't sell, and the other books pass nearly unnoticed, what then provides the base for the line's continuation? ...Uh-Oh, don't want to hear the answer...

[Le Noir Faineant]

*No post whoring here, but I did not want to include it all in one big post*

This isn't me taking sides, I'm trying to be neutral on the developers as a moderator/Fraternity member, but they're hardly the source of ultimate evil for the Ravenloft line. The lack of advertising and support from the rest of Swords and Sorcery fits closer into that category. I mean, you see Vampire and WoD adds in almost every RL book but how many 'Loft ads do you think you see in other WW or S&S books?

This is indeed a point. It might be because most Vampire players despise RL as *childish* and *too soft*. But in such special cases I am quite happy that they stay away from my fav game.
Besides, I think there's no need to take sides. What we all do here is collect FACTS.

Fact one: Nearly not one of us really liked the early 3e works. (Except me.)

Fact two: We all worry if the setting can support that minor phase of products not really accepted by the fans.

I do think it is still just a *tad* early to be mourning the line over what could very well be an oversight. This thread pops up every could months and it's been wrong so far. Yeah, it will eventually be right but if you cry that the sky is falling often enough you'll eventually wander into a construction site and be crushed by a dropped girder.

Yeah, I understand the discussion about the quality, but not about the esteemed *dropping* of the series. After all, it's less than a month since the last release.

[Mangrum]

Just to clear up a few points...

On the other hand, Mrs Rhea did two of the very best 2e products, the Guide to Transylvania and Caravans (if I am not mistaken).

The only Caravans I know of was part of the Al-Qadim product line and was written by (or at least credited to) Rick Swan. She did work on Al-Qadim; I'm just not sure what product you're referring to.

So, the potential is there and, although I don't want to anger our honoured Kargatane lurkers, but wasn't CoD written by THEM?

Not sure I understand the question. Are you asking whether the Kargatane wrote Champions of Darkness?

As a note, it's Rea, not Rhea.

[Le Noir Faineant]

Just to clear up a few points...

On the other hand, Mrs Rhea did two of the very best 2e products, the Guide to Transylvania and Caravans (if I am not mistaken).

The only Caravans I know of was part of the Al-Qadim product line and was written by (or at least credited to) Rick Swan. She did work on Al-Qadim; I'm just not sure what product you're referring to.

So, the potential is there and, although I don't want to anger our honoured Kargatane lurkers, but wasn't CoD written by THEM?

Not sure I understand the question. Are you asking whether the Kargatane wrote Champions of Darkness?

As a note, it's Rea, not Rhea.

Sorry Mr Mangrum. I was really tired when I wrote this. I stand corrected.
My question was partly rethorical, as friend Drinnik blamed the Dark Duo for the, but, as far as I can recall, the highly critisised CoD was a product of the Kargatane. That is not meant as an insult, I indeed liked much of the 3e material you created.

[Joël of the FoS]

but, as far as I can recall, the highly critisised CoD was a product of the Kargatane. That is not meant as an insult, I indeed liked much of the 3e material you created.

Daisy , I think you are wrong: the authors of CoD are Beth Bostic, Carla Hollar, and Tadd McDivitt.

Quote from tha author's notes : "Champions of Darkness Author's Notes, John W Mangrum: I helped create the outlines for Champions of Darkness and Heroes of Light, including suggesting the inclusions of Carnival and Jander Sunstar in ChoD. We had no significant involvement in either books after that early stage, however."

So the Kargatane brought the idea, but that's it. Its execution failure isn't theirs.

By the way, on the Internet, the medieval inquisitor's dread rule about truth applies : "ten presumptions equals one truth". Desdichado, you say you post late at night, but be careful not to let your lack of sleep make you write false things that takes a day on the board to deflate. Check your sources before, not after

Joël

[Drinnik Shoehorn]

It could be argued that as a third-party setting, Ravenloft could never have the dedication that the fans want by its developers.

To anyone that could argue such, visit http://www.dragonlance.com/ and see what they do for their community. Ravenloft could have the same, if it was handled by developers who gave a damn.

[Joël of the FoS]

On this topic, while I share you concern about the line directions, I also agree with David: WW didn't really support the line so far and build excitement for it. They did nothing other companies do (or themselves with their other lines) - no WE's, no discussion with Author about past or future books, no advertising, no interesting Ravenloft content on the net, nothing in fact, plus botched release lists and other "future release" publications where Ravenloft is concerned.

When their parent company released Gaz 5 as a free web download, we ended up advertising it on the web, promoting a free Ravenloft trial, over the main D&D boards... What more can we say?

Joël

[AdamGarou]

Well, my question would be, why don't the Gazetteers sell well, as compared to the other products? I mean, they include backgrounds on domains, storylines that the populace knows (as well as Dread Possibilities that they don't), stats for important NPCs and darklords... what more could we want?

This isn't meant just to be some mindless praise of the Gazetteers--but it really seems like they have most of what any Ravenloft DM is looking for. Plot hooks, detailed descriptions of flora and fauna, legends and tales spread by the townspeople of the domain, dress, common skin and eye-colors of the inhabitants... all things that breathe vital details into the setting we all love.

Even if you're completely new to the setting and know nothing at all about it, after you pick up the basic background materials (whether it's the RL PHB, RL DMG, RL Denizens of Darkness, or whatever), why wouldn't someone take the next step to "flesh out" the world in which they'll be playing?