Is Ravenloft Dead?

[Le Noir Faineant]

I'm not so sure they would. From what I remember, John quit his Kargatane position once or twice even before the S&S showed its nose. I also never remember him saying he found working on Ravenloft a rewarding experience... Quite the opposite, rather. I remember John growing more frustrated with Ravenloft by the day while he was working on the line... And the reasons he sited weren't the developers. It was... ah... fan attitude.

It was a combination of lots of things, not least my overly obsessive nature (that's how I ended up in the ER that one time -- I was so myopic about a deadline and my work that I neglected my health and had a fainting spell).

Suffice to say that in all honesty, I should have walked away from professional writing a solid year before I did. That last year was, to borrow a line from Aliens, "just grinding the gears."

These days, I'm really not interested in writing professionally, at all. I was offered some Dragon gigs, and just couldn't build up the motivation to take the offer. Of course, getting double-teamed by a pair of one's former role models also tends to dent the ol' morale.

Maybe it was me, not recognizing him as a co-writer the newer books?

I wanted to say sorry for this a long time earlier...

I never look at developer's names to closely, I am far too excited to get to read the new book's content... Just look how I butchered Mrs Rea's name.

Besides, to cool this all down a bit, I think we all appreciate your works, Mr Mangrum, Mr Miller, and Mrs Cassada. We may grunt if something isn't as we envisioned it, but really, without you no new RL book at my nightdesk every few months. Flaming at you is something like spiting on the hand that feeds one.

(Err, don't we feed you, too? - Or are you payed with bloody Vampire/Werewolf money?)

R

[Fido]

(Err, don't we feed you, too? - Or are you payed with bloody Vampire/Werewolf money?)

R

He probably IS a vampire and gets paid in blood!... !!! *drama



I too think these guys deserve proper respect for their work. I have never played 2nd edition, so maybe I'm not the one to speak, but I have to say that I absolutely love Ravenloft.

Even if it sucks now, it's still way better than Forgotten Realms *giggle


Repsetc!

[Joël of the FoS]

To Drinnik Shoehorn: It will probably be a long time before I post on this board again. While I have had good reason to do so, I have never called any professional writer a liar or incompetent.

To the rest of you: Thank you for continuing to support Ravenloft. I have answered your posts honestly and tried to stay within the bounds of professional courtesy when attacked. I will continue to check the boards off and on but I generally don't post because these boards are fan forums, not a developer podium.

Besides, it seems pointless to reply when my words are only used as ammunition by those who will never be convinced regardless of what I say or do.

Your choice. Well, we sincerely wish you would stay.

And I'm quite surprised to read you don't think spending time with fans is worthy enough of your time

I wish you could stay because I found that the quicker an eventual misconception is cleared, the less time it will stay around if it is dissipated with good reason. What I mean is that your point of view is needed when your work is attacked, otherwise it might becomes widely accepted, no?

Don't get me wrong here, but I think part of your work is to explain what you do and some of the decisions you made. There was mists in the past history of Ravenloft books and that still lingers around.

To clear a few things: I considered deleting Drinnik's aggressive post, but added a warning afterward instead, to make sure everybody understand that this aggressiveness isn't the way to go. Future discussions should be smoother, hopefully.

Vigorous perhaps, as line development concerns are sometimes raised, but polite.

Joël

[Desertrising]

I feel I owe an appology to any who were hurt by my comments. I was complaining about what we were getting because they were not what I wanted, not because I thought they were done poorly. So if I hurt you I appologize, I think the books have been written very well.

As far as the Dark Duo I appologize it was my understanding you guys did not play Role playing games I stand corrected. However I have to agree that you not being involved in the boards shows a serious lack of.... concern for our input.

Hope the line dosn't end.

[Le Noir Faineant]

Even if it sucks now, it's still way better than Forgotten Realms

That's exactly what I personally would never agree. IMHO, most products released by the Kargatane and the DD were better than old stuff.
First and foremost, the Gazs.
Then, Denizens of Dread, which has come to be the most used MM in all my games, RL or not.
MotRD.

And, personally, I think the RL PHB was a good introduction into the setting.

The only REAL query that I have is why they don't do boxed sets any more. The old ones were so great...

[Fido]

Even if it sucks now, it's still way better than Forgotten Realms

That's exactly what I personally would never agree. IMHO, most products released by the Kargatane and the DD were better than old stuff.
First and foremost, the Gazs.
Then, Denizens of Dread, which has come to be the most used MM in all my games, RL or not.
MotRD.

And, personally, I think the RL PHB was a good introduction into the setting.

The only REAL query that I have is why they don't do boxed sets any more. The old ones were so great...

Didn't want to imply thát the new stuff sucks. I don't think it does, I love it.

I just said 'if'... Besides, I never saw a 2nd edition DnD product in real life, I couldn't know if it were better or not.

[FavouredEnemy]

So... does the original question get answered?

[Ultramyth]

The original question is:

No. Ravenloft is not dead.

Not now, and not ever! Viva la Ravenloft!

heh

[Jester of the FoS]

"Clear!"

*Bzzzap*

"It's not dead 'till I say it's dead! Clear!!"

*Bzzzap*

[Jester of the FoS]

And in an unrelated sense, that was post #1000 for me.

I'm glad it was such an insightful, intelligent and socially relevant one.

[Le Noir Faineant]

And in an unrelated sense, that was post #1000 for me.

I'm glad it was such an insightful, intelligent and socially relevant one.

*Thought long of anything funny to add, but didn't manage to... boot... brain...*

[tec-goblin]

Well, I have to say some quite bad things not about Dark Duo, but for some people above.
Let me explain: Dark Duo IS responsible for some editing errors, but the line has more sense of continuity than ever - the dread possibilities was a way to bring together even non-canon material. The attention to the detail and moving towards Rennaissance settings is a plus to me. Now, we know exactly what people eat, what's sold, how many people live in a city etc.
All this bashing to CoD is a bit too much, IMO - I have used some hooks, feats and NPCs of this book to great effect and I've seen much worst books.

Do you know which desicions were among the worst for the setting?
First, the ripoff with RLPHB and Denizens of Dread. The fact that no preview clearly stated that these books were only slightly updated and many people were disappointed. I think there wouldn't be so much bashing on RLPHB if it really had much new material or if it was just a web-enhancement. Even its new rules would be better accepted. When WotC provided update booklets and all republished books were far superior than the previous ones (compare Complete Warrior to Sword and Fist), and WW encouraged bashing on 3.5 ("because they did it for money"), the way WW and Sword & Sorcery treated the migration to 3.5 is ironic and offensive to us - the players. They republished books, with very few changes, with no serious updating to 3.5 (see some DoDread stats), at extreme prices. And then they started closing lines. It's "taking the money and run". The same went with the Dark Ages setting etc.
Who's responsible for this? Dark Duo a bit (for not providing full 3.5 updates) and Arthaus manager the most.

Second, the artwork and layout. Most of the market accepts better fewer hardcover books with great artwork and atmospheric layout than "just a same black-and-red book with 150 pages". You can only go so far with the same layout for some years. I grew bored. When I got "Shining South" in my hands, I felt great - I thought "someone cares for me". Let's face it, the layout of RL books (even though many of the portraits and some artwork is great) won't convince a new player to buy them from the shelf.
That is probably a combined responsibility of Dark Duo and the people above.

Third, of course it's the fact I had pointed before: having tons of lines of "gothic" books in the same company is overkill. WW doesn't want to die the way TSR did. They try to push V:tR (which, at least here, wasn't as successful as it could be, because of the continuous inability of WW staff to create rules that do not contradict 1-5 other books), and, in some way, Ravenloft gets in the way. Even a bit. WW doesn't seem to give a damn thought about Ravenloft - see even the previous Insider. How much time since the last big article in and Insider about Ravenloft? Or even having decent artwork from a forthcoming book? Disturbing Tales was completely hidden in the previous Insider.
I'll answer: the last time they gave big articles were: RLPHB and Tarokka deck. And they proved to be (according to the S&S homepage) among the top 5 S&S successes ever. Why they ignored the next books? Legacy of Blood for example? MotRD also could be supported much better (they didn't even have a preview). Who's responsible for this? Probably WW and S&S managers more than Dark Duo.
And finally... web support. I touched it above, speaking of previews. Why was it almost forbidden to provide web enhancements for years? Why when WotC has tons of pages about each book (5 previews, 3 articles, all artwork free, a web enhancement and often errata), Ravenloft had nothing than a late paragraph describing each book? Who's responsible for this? I think the managers OUGHT to give money and push (Dark Duo probably) to provide at least a preview, an article and errata for each book - not the tons of material WotC publishes, after all, RV is a niche market, but still much material.

Most of the time, I dislike White Wolf. Because I see a consistency in lack of professionalism by their side. And the difference will evident next October, when WotC will publish Heroes of Horror and we'll see how much web support and seriousness in the production can give someone to a horror-themed rpg book. The comparison will be very entertaining (someone will argue that White Wolf also had much support for V:tR, but I'll disaggee: the book had bad rule editing, very bad information organisation (many repetations), one of the worst indexes I've ever seen and ridiculous errata. And this was their MAIN BOOK for the second half of 2004. I mean, they're supposed to put all their effort to support it...)

[Tobias Blackburn]

That was an... impressive rant, Drinnik, but what kind of proof would you accept? I expect that it would only involve the DarkDuo stepping down. If someone asked you to prove your love for the setting, what can you do to prove it. You've posted articles, they can point to books they've helped develop. You then turn around to books that you didn't like or weren't well done, but I'm sure that there are others that could do the same to your own articles. You can't prove what you're asking, and it comes across as somewhat insane when you demand them to.

Sure, they don't spend that much time on this boards. Perhaps you can mention a developer or writer who is constantly on the WotC boards? Or even a Ravenloft Writer who posts almost every single day? I realize that a large number show up here, but they have other things to do. The DarkDuo not showing up everytime someone calls isn't the exception, its the industy rule.

Perhaps the Gazetters weren't selling well enough to justify their continued production. We don't have the actual numbers, and the "bestsellers list" on their website changes daily, seeming to indicate what currently is selling best, not in overall numbers. Then again, perhaps you're right and they hate the setting so much that they refuse to release anything that fans want. Things like the Tarokka Cards, a books of adventures like Dark Tales...

Champions of Darkness and Heroes of Light came in at the very beginning of the line. They were put together very quickly, and no book has been that far from the ton of the setting since. There have been editing problems, but you've obviously been turning a blind eye to Wizard's of the Coast's last two years of releases. Go to the Wizard's board and ask about the quality of editing in recent releases. Then take a copy of Complete Divine and compare it to the Ravenloft books.

Yes, there have been a LOT of editing mistakes, generally surrounding the same editor. What is the exact process for getting the book out the door? Do the developers do the final editing, because they aren't given credit for that in the books. Is there time when they get the book at that point to send it back for re-editing?

And why did they add things to the Ravenloft Player's Handbook... Recieving the 3.5 rules months before they were contractually obligated to put out the updated books? Because no one was going to purchase a book with less than five pages of text that needed to be changed, especially if (as you suggested) they could get a free web enchancement that could have done the same thing? If you think that's a viable option for a company to try and stay solvent, perhaps they are right about the Gazetters.

Now, let's look at the other books. Champions of Darkness came out over two years ago. Which book since then is that bad. Now, remember that Heroes of Light was written and developed at the same time, so it can't really count. They realized that the fans didn't want books like that and haven't done anything like that since. Yes, the optional rules in the Ravenloft Player's Handbook weren't the best, but they didn't have that much time to work on them. The monster hunting prestiege class was pretty good, though (minus the knowledge planes requirement).

As I recall, John Mangrum said that he agree with the way Van Richten's Arsenal was put together. Doesn't that imply the DarkDuo designing one of the communities favorite books? Wouldn't it have been their decision to put out Van Richten's Guide to the Walking Dead? You yourself said that Masque is an solid book but for the editing. Well the Developers aren't part of the editing staff. It seems that we're just as bad as attributing everything to the authors. A good book is made because of the entire team working well, not inspite of the people who decide who will write what and puts the material together.

You accused them of lying and were then unable to show where the statement was made. That is a serious charge, but hey, its ok, they're the reason you can't get Gazetter VI, right? Of course, are you positive that the statement was made by the same developer, and that they actually got to see the numbers instead of being told "don't do that anymore because..." by their bosses? Eh, vague memories and worst case senarios are better than proof, I guess.

Frankly Drinnik, you were quite rude, and it seems to me that you have some sort of personal vendetta against the developers instead of actual proof. Do you work for Arthaus and know all the inner workings? If not, then what can you do to prove your accusations.

If the DarkDuo can prove that they love the setting by stepping down or working themselves into the hospital, then perhaps you can also prove your accusations that they are everything that is wrong with the staff who put out the books. If you even thought about it for two seconds, you'd realize that the Kargatane, or Mr. Miller, or any of the other authors would not get the setting, it would go to someone else who probably knows even less. The Kargatane were given a chance to make their own development house and decided against it. This is the result.

As I said above, I'd like to see your proof. I haven't seen you back up any statements with anything but wild speculation, but you must have hard evidence to back up your claims. If not, then you own the developers an apology.

(EDIT: I realized that the budget the management grants also impacts facets of the books. If, as Tec-goblin mentioned, all White Wolf 3.5 updates were tossed out, the budget was probably fairly poor. Yes, they could work themselves until they burn out, but would you expect the same of Steve and Ryan or any of the other staff writers. I'd hate to have one or two good products, and then find out that a favoured author isn't going to work for the line anymore. Of course, that's just me.)

[Mangrum]

Champions of Darkness and Heroes of Light came in at the very beginning of the line. They were put together very quickly,

Out of curiosity, on what do you base this claim?

And why did they add things to the Ravenloft Player's Handbook... Recieving the 3.5 rules months before they were contractually obligated to put out the updated books? Because no one was going to purchase a book with less than five pages of text that needed to be changed, especially if (as you suggested) they could get a free web enchancement that could have done the same thing? If you think that's a viable option for a company to try and stay solvent, perhaps they are right about the Gazetters.

Were that the alternative option at the time, you'd have a point. In reality, however, what the developers had to deal with was the authors of the original R3E literally begging to be given the opportunity to update the book properly. Offers which were consistently and repeatedly refused until it was far, far too late to do any good.

In Kargatane hands, the RL PHB would have been rather significantly more than the R3E with a few rules of incoherent rules tacked on -- which were, indeed, tacked on just to get the same people who'd already shelled out for the R3E to buy the same book again.

Now, let's look at the other books. Champions of Darkness came out over two years ago. Which book since then is that bad.

Are we counting things like Denizens of Dread not containing a single monster with correct 3.5 stats? And I do mean not one. I've finally started going through DenDread line-by-line, and to that comment I can add with no qualifications: The developers have no idea how to create a monster template. Go on through the book and look at all the new sample monsters for template critters (those added since Denizens of Darkness). Note that, as far as I can tell, for the most part these sample monsters do not appear to have even been created using the applicable templates. The ancient dead entries (which don't actually use the base creatures they claim to) are perhaps the most blatant example, but they are far from unique.

(For that matter, let's take a look at one of the new templates N&J wrote themselves -- the mist horror. First, note that their version of the mist horror has, as presented, lost the ability to assume the shapes of monsters drawn from victim's deepest fears -- which was their big schtick in 2E. Why the change? The creature is now basically a shoddily constructed ghost.

The sample mist horror is listed as having "Balance" as a feat. Huh?

Type: Is a mist horror incorporeal? The sample horror says yes, the template says nada. Does it have the mists subtype? Ditto.

Attacks: Mist horros gain natural weapons. Um, great. What natural weapons? The template is completely mum.

Immunities: Mist horrors are immune to spells that normally "effect" [sic] undead. Great. Like magic missile, you mean? Yes, it's possible to tell what they mean. But what they mean isn't what the template says. That difference is important in technical writing.

Skills: Ah, maybe the mist horror isn't incorporeal, because it gets a bonus on Move Silently, when incorporeal creatures actually always move silently.

And those are just the obvious mistakes in one monster. And that monster is par for the course, not the exception.

Also keep in mind that, like the RL PHB, DenDread was a situation where the developers had part of their design team literally begging to help update and improve this book, and again blew them off completely, settling on this slack effort instead.

Now, remember that Heroes of Light was written and developed at the same time, so it can't really count. They realized that the fans didn't want books like that and haven't done anything like that since.

You're reading quite a bit into the situation. There hasn't been a Van Richten's Arsenal II either, and that was one of the critically best-received books.

As a note, I would place Legacies of Blood in the same order of accessory as Champions of Darkness and Heroes of Light -- books of primarily player options, which are also used to flesh out the setting by adding NPCs and adventure hooks.

Yes, the optional rules in the Ravenloft Player's Handbook weren't the best, but they didn't have that much time to work on them.

Again, on what do you base this claim?

As I recall, John Mangrum said that he agree with the way Van Richten's Arsenal was put together.

I assume there's a missing "didn't" here. Either way, you're incorrect. I was about 90% happy with the end result of VRA, which is nearly as good as it gets for me. What I said was that I thought VRA was a bad concept when it was first proposed, and was glad to later help prove myself wrong.

Also, as a reminder, since most of your post seems to be based on vague memories and wishful thinking -- VRA was put on the schedule and assigned to authors by N&J's predecessor, "Kelly Jester." The sum total N&J's contributions to VRA was to trim the text down for space.

VRA is also, to clarify an error made in a different post, where I introduced the concept of Dread Possibilities -- and trust me, it was no stroke of genius. The reason I did it was simply this: I knew there were former Kargat at WotC who didn't like the idea of making Gennifer Weathermay-Foxgrove a werewolf. Thus was created the only-true-if-you-want "dread possibility" -- a way to hedge my bets.

Doesn't that imply the DarkDuo designing one of the communities favorite books?

It would, if you were correct.

Wouldn't it have been their decision to put out Van Richten's Guide to the Walking Dead?

I've said this before, but: Proposed by the Kargatane (and hinted at in VRA, a book already in the works when N&J came in the line) and half written by the Kargatane. And the half that wasn't written by the Kargatane used the wrong format. And despite that this mistake was caught during the design process, requests to fix it were shot down... by the developers.

Well the Developers aren't part of the editing staff.

Which is an interesting concept, because their predecessor, "Kelly Jester," absolutely was part of the editing staff. He would send us back redlines of our first drafts, which we would then revise. If Arthaus developers don't edit text in 3E Ravenloft books, then make no bones about it: that policy started on the day N&J took control of the line.

If you even thought about it for two seconds, you'd realize that the Kargatane, or Mr. Miller, or any of the other authors would not get the setting, it would go to someone else who probably knows even less.

And you base this on...?

As I said above, I'd like to see your proof. I haven't seen you back up any statements with anything but wild speculation, but you must have hard evidence to back up your claims.

While I think Drinnik was over the line, be aware that your claims stray as deep into la-la-land as his.

[Gemathustra]

As far as I know, I have yet to see any official statement or announcement that states, or stated, that the line for Ravenloft products is to be stopped, whether from the Dark Duo, White Wolf, Wizards of the Coast, Sorcerors in the Bay, the Kargatane, Steve Miller, or anyone else who is QUALIFIED to make such a statement or announcement.

And until one such QUALIFIED person makes an official proclaimation, with Wizards of the Coast or White Wolf stationary, I will not believe idle speculation that the Ravenloft product line is dead.

In my personal opinion, this thread is about as productive as saying, "Oh noes, the Sun is going to turn into a red giant and incinerate the Earth in another 4 billion years! We're all gonna DIEEEEEEEEE!!!" and has been wholely unable to accomplish ANYTHING PRODUCTIVE AT ALL.
Bicker bicker bicker, that's all I'm seeing that's being accomplished.
I should kill you all.
KILL YOU ALL

Socko says: Gee, maybe you should take your pills now...
YES, I SHOULD, SHOULDN'T I?
*gulp*
Socko says: I don't think those pills will do you any good... You're supposed to open the bottle before swallowing...