Historic dates: pinning them down

Discussing all things Ravenloft
User avatar
Rotipher of the FoS
Thieving Crow
Thieving Crow
Posts: 4683
Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2003 4:18 pm

Post by Rotipher of the FoS »

A "Happy Birthday to Ravenloft" party, you mean? Yeah, that'd be pretty neat. Heck, I might even be completely over the assorted hassles of the semester, by then! :lol:

OTOH, we could always proclaim that October 31st in this world "just happens" to correspond to June 21st in the Land of Mists. Then we could celebrate Halloween and Ravenloft's birthday on the same day, and really overload our brains with spooky, creepy stuff! :wink:
"Who [u]cares[/u] what the Dark Powers are? They're [i]bastards![/i] That's all I need to know of them." -- Crow
User avatar
cure
Evil Genius
Evil Genius
Posts: 1684
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2005 12:34 pm

Post by cure »

Here is the exact research of Mangrum drawn from the Heart of Midnight which I do not have to verify/iron out any ambiguities.

"737 Casimir seeks revenge against Zhone Clieous; Casimir falls in love with Julianna Estovina, but he is cheated out of the contest; the Red Porch poorhouse is burned down, killing all but twelve orphans. Casimir convinces Gustav, a priest of Milil, to take in the orphans; they start a choir. (July) [HoM pg. 36: the meistersinger contest is held on Midsummers.]
737 Zhone Clieous revealed as a werewolf, killed by Casimir; Casimir becomes meistersinger of Harmonia; Casimir declares Milil the state religion, has the temple of Milil restored. (Late July) [HoM pg. 104: one week has passed since midsummer.]
737 Casimir attempts to be cured of lycanthropy; kills Gustav, the priest of Milil; Casimir makes his friend Thoris (who is barely 16 and has had virtually no training) his replacement. (August) [HoM pg. 166: the contest is on the night of the full moon; the cure comes on the next full moon.]"
Last edited by cure on Tue Apr 25, 2006 4:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The cure for what ails you
User avatar
Rotipher of the FoS
Thieving Crow
Thieving Crow
Posts: 4683
Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2003 4:18 pm

Post by Rotipher of the FoS »

Well, if "Midsummer" is supposed to be the same as "Summer Solstice", it belongs in June, not July, and that part of the timeline needs some minor editing. If they're not intended to be the same date -- which is quite possible: while "Midsummer Night" is traditionally the same as the solstice, some IRL countries hold "midsummer" celebrations closer to the chronological midpoint of the season of summer -- then it's the Meistersinger contest on the downloadable calendar, which needs its date revised.
"Who [u]cares[/u] what the Dark Powers are? They're [i]bastards![/i] That's all I need to know of them." -- Crow
User avatar
Nathan of the FoS
Fiendish Enforcer
Fiendish Enforcer
Posts: 5247
Joined: Fri Nov 28, 2003 3:39 pm
Location: San Francisco CA

Post by Nathan of the FoS »

Midsummer's Day is actually given as June 24 in many real-world calendars. How do I know? 'Cause it's my birthday. :lucas:

Note that nothing I've seen so far places the Meistersinger contest precisely on Midsummer's Day; the full moon nearest the summer solstice might be the day indicated.

EDIT: A quick bit of research shows that June 24, 1983 (equivalent to 737 BC) was the first night of the full moon in June that year. :shock: So there you go.

http://stardate.org/nightsky/moon/index ... &Submit=Go
[b]FEAR JUSTICE.[/b] :elena:
User avatar
cure
Evil Genius
Evil Genius
Posts: 1684
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2005 12:34 pm

Post by cure »

According to "A Year in Ravenloft" by Stuart Turner in the Book of Secrets the Meistersinger Contest is held on the summer solstice. Some one with Gazetter I or the Heart of Midnight could verify, contradict or both verify and contradict this. I have neither at hand in the immediate future.

But according to a note at the end of the article, this is a canon date!

There are probably other digestable tidbits in said article by the way.
Last edited by cure on Tue Apr 25, 2006 5:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The cure for what ails you
User avatar
cure
Evil Genius
Evil Genius
Posts: 1684
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2005 12:34 pm

Post by cure »

From the above source:

Duke Gundar was assassinated Feb. 3 736. (Turner).

Othmar Bolshnik born May 20 708 (Mangrum).

The following dates, without years attached, are given for the pre-Requiem invasions of Darkon by Falkovnia: April 21, August 14, August 26, September 1 (Pierre van Rooden). The years of the invasions were 700, 704, 711, 722. Nothing I see aids in figuring which belongs to which. The invasion of 751 is a couple of months after Requiem (Domains of Dread pg. 25 via Mangrum).

An allusion is made to there being a connection between the new moon in Mordent and Mordent joining Ravenloft. (Traini Massimo)
The cure for what ails you
User avatar
Rotipher of the FoS
Thieving Crow
Thieving Crow
Posts: 4683
Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2003 4:18 pm

Post by Rotipher of the FoS »

Nathan of the FoS wrote:Midsummer's Day is actually given as June 24 in many real-world calendars. How do I know? 'Cause it's my birthday. :lucas:
That's true ... but only because the Church in Europe deliberately moved Midsummer Eve to be exactly six months from Christmas Eve. I can't see that happening in Ravenloft, unless we want to set up an Ezran equivalent of Christmas ... and even then, it probably won't apply to Kartakass, as Ezra isn't particularly dominant there IIRC. :?



Heh heh. Now we can make it a "Happy Birthday to Ravenloft and Happy Almost-Birthday to Nathan" party! :D
"Who [u]cares[/u] what the Dark Powers are? They're [i]bastards![/i] That's all I need to know of them." -- Crow
User avatar
Nathan of the FoS
Fiendish Enforcer
Fiendish Enforcer
Posts: 5247
Joined: Fri Nov 28, 2003 3:39 pm
Location: San Francisco CA

Post by Nathan of the FoS »

Rotipher wrote:
Nathan of the FoS wrote:Midsummer's Day is actually given as June 24 in many real-world calendars. How do I know? 'Cause it's my birthday. :lucas:
That's true ... but only because the Church in Europe deliberately moved Midsummer Eve to be exactly six months from Christmas Eve. I can't see that happening in Ravenloft, unless we want to set up an Ezran equivalent of Christmas ... and even then, it probably won't apply to Kartakass, as Ezra isn't particularly dominant there IIRC. :?
True dat. But Christmas is a solar solstice holiday too. I think the Church just got slightly off on its astronomy somewhere. Regardless, it makes a nice kludge because it lets us keep the moon phases equal to our own world's, which saves the careful DM a ton of headaches.
Heh heh. Now we can make it a "Happy Birthday to Ravenloft and Happy Almost-Birthday to Nathan" party! :D
Er...yeah. :shock:
[b]FEAR JUSTICE.[/b] :elena:
User avatar
Le Noir Faineant
Rafe, Agent of the Fraternity
Rafe, Agent of the Fraternity
Posts: 4586
Joined: Thu Jan 06, 2005 12:25 pm
Gender: Male
Location: Saint Grimmin’s-in-the-Wold

Post by Le Noir Faineant »

Rotipher wrote:A "Happy Birthday to Ravenloft" party, you mean? Yeah, that'd be pretty neat. Heck, I might even be completely over the assorted hassles of the semester, by then! :lol:
Exactly! Too bad that you are all from over the Ocean... We could do a little Frat-reunion party if this wasn't the case. People who tell that they are sent by a certain Socko get free beer and entry... :Brain:
User avatar
cure
Evil Genius
Evil Genius
Posts: 1684
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2005 12:34 pm

Post by cure »

Full moon fell on June 21 in 1978.
The cure for what ails you
User avatar
Ail
Evil Genius
Evil Genius
Posts: 3429
Joined: Wed Dec 03, 2003 7:33 am
Location: Egham, UK

Post by Ail »

cure wrote:Full moon fell on June 21 in 1978.
Actually, there's a site where you can find all the moon phases in past and future years (they reach about to 1800 and I think that should be pretty much enough for most purposes).

I've tried to reconcile dates but eventuallly quit because it was too much trouble.


Look here: http://aa.usno.navy.mil/data/docs/MoonPhase.html
It is the easiest site I found for that. Unfortunately, you'll notice that a lunar cycle is about 29 days and not 28, which destroys my in-game use of 7 exact days for each phase.


Finally, I'd like to leave here a note regarding midsummer. John Mangrum did seem to use midsummer as somewhere between 21 June and 21 September, this is, summer as we use it.
But midsummer seems to be a quite English conception that probably comes from the Celtic Calendar, and remember this had four main festivals that broke the year in arguably four parts (though at times it appears they have only two seasons).
As such we could view
Summer as going from Beltaine to Lughnasad - 1st of May to 1st of August (I'm not sure about this day, but the month is August);
Fall from Lughnasad to Samhain - 1st November (the original Halloween)
Winter from Samhain to Imbolc - in February, same comment as for Lughnasad.
Spring from Imbolc to Beltaine.

Now, if you compute the midsummer and midwinter they will be more or less around the solstices, with about a week proximity.

That's, I think, where the midsummer conception of the solstice comes from.

Ail
Zumba d'Oxossi (A Stitch in Souragne)
Brother Eustace (The Devil's Dreams)
Robert de Moureaux (A New Barovia)
User avatar
cure
Evil Genius
Evil Genius
Posts: 1684
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2005 12:34 pm

Post by cure »

Mid-Summer falling on the summer solstice in Kartakass is canon (or at least so claims Chris Stuart, see reference above).

In addition to the 29 versus 28 days, there is also leap years . . .
The cure for what ails you
Post Reply