Universities of the Core

[ScS of the Fraternity]

Hey, don't knock the cavalry.
Cavalry, for example, was of extreme usefullness in the steppes. After all, what caused Hitler's ambitions in Russia to fail? Lack of Gas. As well, despite the propaganda and histrionics, Germany's army durring the blitz was the least mechanized force - many of their artillery was pulled by horse.
As for spears... well, there's little point to using a gun if you aren't good with it - or don't have the ammunition to use it.

Whatever works best - works best! Or as the Russians put it, Not to get fancy, not to fall on ass.

Of course, that certainly wouldn't be the way that renaissance domain generals think.

[Jakob]

As for spears... well, there's little point to using a gun if you aren't good with it - or don't have the ammunition to use it.

That's one of the most horrible pages of Italian history...
The fascist army had no more bullets... So it started using gas.

Anyway, on topic:

Can the Church of the Divinity of Mankind in Paridon be considered advanced education?
I don't remeber if it acts as church and school of alchemical philosophy...

[Rotipher of the FoS]

Technically, a school IRL is only considered a "university" if people can receive Ph.D.s there. If Ravenloft's colleges follow the same system of degrees as IRL, then that's the standard for being a "University of XXXX" as opposed to an academy, college, etc.

If the Divinity of Mankind church runs a seminarian-college, it probably issues Ph.D.s in Theology, hence would qualify as a "university" despite its narrow focus.

[Ail]

In my own campaign, there is a School of High Studies, which is a university, but it is set in a home made domain. Anyway, I've defined a set of subjects studied there with names for the masters responsible for each.

One of the characters in my campaign is a student there, so it is mentioned sometimes in my campaign logs, along with two teachers that were important for the PC, Teblis Sinewicz (iirc), who besides teaching is also the headmaster, and Irvanis Erbius I guess. This PC of mine took History and Folklore and Myth, I believe. Or something along those lines.

Write me if you want more details, I'll be glad to contribute.

Alex

[doctor-evil]

Technically, a school IRL is only considered a "university" if people can receive Ph.D.s there. If Ravenloft's colleges follow the same system of degrees as IRL, then that's the standard for being a "University of XXXX" as opposed to an academy, college, etc.

Unfortunately I don't have it with me at the moment but I've got a fantastic article on the history of university degrees (esp. from a Oxford/Cambridge point of view). For example, university students enrolling in an Oxford program would take a 7 year program (kind of like a liberal arts program, some theology/philosophy and 'natural philosophy' (basic sciences) and graduate as a 'Magister Academian' (sorry for the dodgy latin) or M.A. Which I always liked the idea of being a 'Magister' rather than an MA. Anyway, it would be worth looking at the history of these universities (and their equivalents in France, Spain, Italy) to get renaissance/mediaeval flavor for some of the Ravenloft institutions. If you use present day universities as models for RL institutes, I think you'd loose a lot of historical 'flavour'.

Here's a collection of random thoughts on RL universities etc...

As Lamordia is so technologically advanced, it surpises me that there aren't more academic instututes in this domain. There should probably be some sort of Polytechnical Instutute that specialises in engineering, and a College of Surgeons perhaps?

There should perhaps be something in the Amber Wastes too - In the middle ages science, medicine, mathematics etc were for more adanced in Northern Africa/ the middle east than most of Europe. This was mainly due to supression of 'heretical ideas' in Europe by religious institutions.
Such a scenario could explain why some domains in Ravenloft are mediaeval which othe are Renaisance (and later) - advanced technology is akin to witchcraft or seen as heretical etc etc.

Are all of the institutions notes above really universities? I always thought the academy of sciences for example was more akin to the Royal Society in London (i.e. somewhere that learned poeple would go to more as a lecture club or society rather than a university as such).

Anyway, I'd love to see an article on RL institutes of higher learning in QTR. Perhaps the proposed article could the affliation/organisation rules in the new Players Handbook 2 could be used for affliation to these institutes (esp the Academy of Sciences) - I'm tring to do this for Harmonic Hall for my players at the moment.

[Lord Cyclohexane]

I guess I should correct myself... The college in Armeikos, Liffe is merely listed as a college. Technically, it's not a university.

That said, it was a college in 73X BC when on an Island of Terror. Now that it's in the Nocturnal Sea, and is the *only* college in the Nocturnal Sea, I could easily see it expanding into a full University of Liffe due to all of the foreign students who came to study at the college. Not to mention the Boritsi Trading Company expanding their business to a branch in Armeikos, they could easily donate money to the college as philanthropy to the community.

But this is merely an idea, not canon at all. All that is canon is that there is a college in Armeikos as of 73X.

[Jeremy16]

Hi All,

Thanks for all the food for thought. Since this is still the idea stage for me I will definitely do more research on medieval universities and colleges. I hope it will have an authentic feel, even if I jury rig a couple of things for the sake of some cool ideas I have. Anyway, here's my thoughts so far:

1) There will definitely be a university in Lamordia. Mostly likely a medical college in Ludendorf. It doesn't make sense to me to have such a modern domain, but no mention of any institutes for higher learning in Gaz II.

2) I also (like many of you, it seems) think there should be at least one school/university in Mordent. Judging from its size and description in Gaz III, I think it would be over kill to have more than that. Perhaps a small school steeped in tradition, but that has recently expanded. Someone pointed out the University of Mordent was mentioned in VRA. I think for simplicity's sake, I will use that title.

3) Borca should have a university too. It's been said that most colleges start as seminary schools are affiliated with some church, so it's a no-brainer that there should be a university in Levkarest tied to the Church of Ezra. Of course, it will be more arts and drama oriented now.

4) The more I hear about it, the more I like the idea of the University of Liffe. It can be the new upstart college trying to syphon students away from Dementlieu and Richemulot. I'll mull it over some more.

5) As for canon universities, such as the University of Port-A-Lucine and the Academe de Richemulot, I'm not sure if I should cover them or not. I mean, some details were mentioned in Gaz III, but there was nothing about faculty or buildings. Of course, I don't want to waste time re-hashing canon material while I could be focusing more on my own stuff. Then again, a survey of colleges would be incomplete without a mention or two of these distinguished places. The same goes for the Brautslava Institute and the University of Il Aluk.

That about covers everything for now. Any additions are suggestions are welcome.

Thanks,
Jeremy

[Scipio]

For non-canon, there's a university in Monte Mal that I covered on the website. It should still be up at www.geocities.com/montemal666 .

[Jeremy16]

So I've been doing a little reading up on medieval universities, and found something interesting that I'd like to incorporate into Ravenloft - the idea of the Quadrium and the Trivium. These two groups formed the core education of most universities, and after completing them students were considered to have a B.A. degree or equivilant.

The Quadrium is composed of Astronomy, Geometry, Arithmetic, and Music. The Trivium is composed of Grammar, Rhetoric, and Dialect. Needless to say, these concepts have gone through a lot of changes since then!

Now, what I wanted to know is what would a Quadrium or Trivium look like in Ravenloft? That is, what would be the base courses of study that most students would have to go through?

I think Astronomy would be out, since that has to do with relationship between planets and stars. I like Geometry and Arithmetic, but think keeping both would be redundant. Also, Grammar and Rhetoric would be a good pair to keep - one could be written and the other oral.

Besides that, what more fantasy-type of fields should be included - alchemy, metaphsyics, arcana?

[Lord Cyclohexane]

wrote:
Now, what I wanted to know is what would a Quadrium or Trivium look like in Ravenloft? That is, what would be the base courses of study that most students would have to go through?

Actually, I think the typical Quadrium and Trivium are best. As you said, this represents a Bachelor of the Arts degree, which gives a broad range of the basics and prepares one to really start learning. So I suggest staying with the real-world subjects.

Astronomy - Absolutely necessary for sailing and nautical shipping, as the stars are the only point of reference you've got when sailing the Sea of Sorrows or Nocturnal Sea. Also great for map-making when in unfamiliar terrain (the stars are the one unchanging constant). Most useful point of Astronomy is knowledge of the change in seasons and of overall weather patterns. Farmers need to know when the first day of Spring is going to be this year, architects need to know overall weather to they're not trying to build on top of mud, etc. Meteorology (study of weather) would not have split off into its own field just yet.

Geometry - Again, necessary for sailing ships as geometric equations (specifically those relating to triangles) allow one to determine one's relative position at sea and the relative angles and distances to landmasses. Assuming that the Core is spherically based (there's some kind of curve across the landmasses and oceans), knowledge of trigonometry is also required. Geometric equations are also necessary for architects to build safer buildings, as the precision required increases as the buildings get taller and taller. Again, good all-around knowledge.

Arithmetic - Including algebraic equations, this is necessary for keeping excellent business records, plotting changes in data points concerning pretty much any business, and also for all of the alchemical equations (both chemistry and physics). Different from geometry in that it's more abstract, losing the relationship to actual physical shapes and the relationship between physical objects, but much better for dealing in abstracts like money, numbers of people, amounts of a chemical, etc. Arithmetic would also cover Logic and Deductive Reasoning, helpful for any scientist, political writer, etc.

Music - This is not just to provide a well-rounded education. Knowledge of pitch, harmony, tone, and use of empty space between notes; these have historically helped inspire and explain mathematical relationships, scientific knowledge and the like. Many renaissance scientists understood a desired concept through musical terms before they could create the science to explain it. This *does* have a social use as well, as people even in professional circles had to make their own music; those who could not play an instrument were often not invited to parties, gatherings, and the like.

Grammar - Overall knowledge of the form and function of a language. If one doesn't know the grammatical rules, it becomes impossible to communicate information. Grammar would include reading, writing, and comprehension.

Rhetoric - Dictionary.com describes it well as "the art or study of using language effectively and persuasively." This would primarily center around creating well-formed arguments, just as English classes today deal with the three purposes of writing: informative, persuasive, and entertainment-based. Likely this would also cover logic, for if an argument doesn't follow logically, it becomes much less effective (Logic would primarily fall under Arithmetic, however).

Dialect - Dictionary.com describes it as "The manner or style of expressing oneself in language or the arts." This would likely focus on tailoring one's writings/conversation to match one's audience. It would also describe how different writing/conversation styles work better/worse with different topics of conversation. A flowery, rhythmic style works poorly when describing scientific and architectural projects; however, it works well with poetry and politics. However, a focus on analytical description works well with science and poorly with politics. Knowing what writing style best complements one's writing is important.


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I'll come back to the idea of adding fantasy-subjects, but in short: I don't believe any of them fit into a B.A. degree. Alchemy, magic, etc should all be limited subjects taken as free credits but unrequired for the degree. Advanced learning should be available at some universities, however.

[Nathan of the FoS]

Dialect - Dictionary.com describes it as "The manner or style of expressing oneself in language or the arts." This would likely focus on tailoring one's writings/conversation to match one's audience. It would also describe how different writing/conversation styles work better/worse with different topics of conversation. A flowery, rhythmic style works poorly when describing scientific and architectural projects; however, it works well with poetry and politics. However, a focus on analytical description works well with science and poorly with politics. Knowing what writing style best complements one's writing is important.

Quick correction--the subject is actually "Dialectic", meaning the ability to think logically. It is, unsurprisingly, considered the capstone of educated thought.

That's a useful list, though. One quibble is that, according to canon, the Nocturnal Sea is always clouded over, and that it is navigated with magnetic compasses. I've always deeply disliked that detail, because it creates horrible logical conundrums; where, exactly, is Ravenloft's magnetic north? What does "north" mean in a non-spherical world? Is a compass pointing "north" in Valachan parallel to one pointing "north" in Vechor? If so, are they pointing to a common point or to "map north"? Did drawing the map, then, create north? If the Mists bring you from the Nocturnal Sea, in which you were sailing north, to the Sea of Sorrows, sailing south, does your compass turn immediately? WHY WOULD ANYONE EVER TRUST ONE OF THESE THINGS?

...

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Er...sorry about that.

[Lord Cyclohexane]

One quibble is that, according to canon, the Nocturnal Sea is always clouded over, and that it is navigated with magnetic compasses.

I always disliked that, and my reasoning: If you run into a storm and are blown even slightly off-course... How are you not completely screwed? A magnetic compass will only tell you what direction you're going. Without the stars to tell you where you are, you can't possibly know what direction that you ought to go...

And yet, canon also tells us that there's tons of trade across the Nocturnal Sea. How is this possible? Are there absolutely no storms on the Nocturnal Sea, not even the tiniest?

I've always deeply disliked that detail, because it creates horrible logical conundrums; where, exactly, is Ravenloft's magnetic north?

I've always wondered that myself... And let me add an additional problem to your list: If "magnetic north" is still within Darkon, but say north of Neblus, what happens if a new domain appears north of Darkon? They'd be travelling south to go "north" and it's all kinds of messed up.

That said... It'd kinda be cool, too. Darkon is often compared to the Roman Empire, so how about modifying "All roads lead to Rome" to be "All compasses point to Il Aluk"?

[Rotipher of the FoS]

I've always deeply disliked that detail, because it creates horrible logical conundrums; where, exactly, is Ravenloft's magnetic north? What does "north" mean in a non-spherical world? Is a compass pointing "north" in Valachan parallel to one pointing "north" in Vechor? If so, are they pointing to a common point or to "map north"? Did drawing the map, then, create north?

Presumably, the four cardinal directions were mapped out by 4th century Barovians, when they saw which direction the sun rose or set in (giving east and west). When the compass made its first appearance in Ravenloft, the DPs twigged the fake physics of their construct so that their needles would point in the direction corresponding to "North" by that standard. Ravenloft's cosmology doesn't need a "magnetic north" for a compass to appear to function, any more than it needs to orbit around a huge, flaming sphere of hydrogen (or some magical equivalent) for its inhabitants to witness sunrises and sunsets.

This does leave us the question of whether Bluetspur has directions, since it doesn't have sunrises or sunsets. But it could have retained the same usage from when it was part of the Core.

[mistshadow2k4]

What does "north" mean in a non-spherical world?

This actually has little to do with Earth being a sphere. It's because Earth has a magnetic field -- Mars, for example, has no magnetic field, so a compass wouldn't work on Mars. Furthermore, it can shift and there's evidence that it has done so more than once in human history; if you could time-travel back far enough with a compass, it would point south instead of north. (Evidence is found in iron samples, btw.) In fact, I've recently read a few articles that scientist have reason to think that it's starting to shift again right now. I leave you to imagine the implications of this in Ravenloft.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

So.... magnetic north you don't trust, but it's ok to put your trust in the stars, which are points of light arbitraily arranged by the dark powers, possibly just a black sheet poked with holes held in front of a flashlight by the lowest ranking Dark Power.

Face it, if the Dark Powers want you to get lost, you're lost. And since the average ravenloftian doesn't know that, and if thus far all compasses have pointed to some point in the mists beyond Darkon,* why not trust that too?

*except when deemed creepier by the Dark Powers, in which case they spin crazily. Usually soon before the holder of the compass is eaten by something.


That said, perpetual clouds would make navigation highly tricky. If I were sailing the Nocturnal Sea, I'd stay in sight of the coast.