What Darklords Should Go?

[Baduin9]

FWIW, I think the "Everyone-Has-A-Hidden-Dark-Side" angle on Nova Vaasa can be played up more effectively if you assume that, while the country nobles pretend disinterest and snooty contempt for the corruption and vice of the cities, each and every one of them is actually up to his armpits in such corruption. Tristan/Malken's unique in that his dark side and his law-abiding side are entirely segregated from one another, but that doesn't mean the other noble families don't secretly have their fingers in the slums as well. Somebody's got to own the leases on all those squalid, miserable tenements, after all, and someone's raking in the profits -- all under the table, of course; no true noble would ever admit that his wealth comes from something as grubby as (ick!) trade -- from the sweatshops and workhouses and other abusive practices that aren't shady enough for Malken to monopolize.

And again, we return to cities. All those ideas are very good - for a city-based campaign. Noble landlords as hidden owners of slums - this is a quite good topic for Gothic story.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Widowers'_Houses

There is one problem with this: there was nothing "hidden" about the great nobles of the East. The magnates owned whole towns outright, lock, stock and barrel. They named city councillors and judges etc. But most towns were small, poor and unimportant. The nobles were unimaginably rich compared with the West - they could afford private armies many thousand men strong - but their money was earned in agriculture, not in cities. The nearly only rich cities were those which were middlemen in the grain trade.

This may be difficult to understand for people accustomed to the conditions in the West. When the West developed trade and industry, lands east of Elbe exported grain to feed the new cities of the West. This phenomenon which began in XV/XVI centuries was called "export-led serfdom"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serfdom
http://www.historycooperative.org/journ ... lenyi.html

That is why I suggest dividing Nova Vaasa into two domains: the city and the land, which would form politically one state. The city would remain with Malken as Darklord, and would be ruled by a corrupt and hypocritical oligarchy of city nobles and elite burgeois.

The main topic of the land would be war and treason. I suggested earlier many historical examples of prospective darklords.

[Nathan of the FoS]

There is one problem with this: there was nothing "hidden" about the great nobles of the East. The magnates owned whole towns outright, lock, stock and barrel. They named city councillors and judges etc. But most towns were small, poor and unimportant. The nobles were unimaginably rich compared with the West - they could afford private armies many thousand men strong - but their money was earned in agriculture, not in cities. The nearly only rich cities were those which were middlemen in the grain trade.
...
That is why I suggest dividing Nova Vaasa into two domains: the city and the land, which would form politically one state. The city would remain with Malken as Darklord, and would be ruled by a corrupt and hypocritical oligarchy of city nobles and elite burgeois.

I get the feeling we're talking past each other a little here...I would say that you are absolutely right to point out that Nova Vaasa is a weird (and non-historical) mix of two motifs--agrarian feudal and urban decay. But, to my mind, that's the whole point of the domain. It's deliberately built out of two highly dissimilar and hard-to-reconcile elements as a reflection of its darklord, who is, well, a person combining two highly dissimilar and hard-to-reconcile personas.

Splitting the domain and the darklord in two makes each element self-coherent, but the whole point, as I see it, is that Nova Vaasa isn't self-coherent, and can never be as long as the Hiregaards and Malken exist.

I guess what I'm saying is that I see what you're getting at, but I think it's a feature (maybe the feature) of the domain, and not a bug.

[Nikolas of the Mists]

The only problem with the disease is: what happens if he does die from the disease? I know the DPs will more than likely prolong his suffering, how long would it go?

The disease will take a couple hundred years to run its course fully killing him, but every year he is a little slower, a little less cunning, and a little less 'King' of the wildlands.

"It is part of the curse of the land that there will always be a King Crocodile." p21 Islands of Terror.

This says to me that the Dark Lordship is a legacy of the land, and not a recurrence of the same King Croc should he die. A new croc takes up the mantle, and in a generation or two of the Wildlands none can remember, not even him, the difference between the new King Croc, or the King Croc of legend.

[cure]

The Three Hags have long bothered me albeit without the desire to replace them. I agree with most or all of what has been said but I would add another aspect.

Witch magic is woefully undefined. Gaz V thought up an appropriate spell or two, but this magic as being a threat to humanity and untainted life generally is not given full scope. One of the more celebrated acts of the Three Hags was the spiritual, corporeal, eldritch corruption of a treant to give us Blackroot. That is interesting. Whereas the Three Hags just culling human organs because they like liver pate is not interesting. The Three Hags lack goals. Why gather the organs? Why stir the Inquisition?

They should live and breathe to corrupt all that is good and wholesome. That should be manifest in their powers and it should be manifest in all they do. They should revel in helping to push the Inquisitioners over the edge. They should revel in seducing the happily married man and exposing his transgression before ultimately seeing him cooked alive in a pot.

As mere flesh eaters the Three Hags are hardly more interesting than wolves. But as creatures actively at war with all that is good and wholesome they become a threat to the body and the soul.

[Strahdsbuddy]

A quick hit on Nova Vaasa: all of Baduin9's links are interesting and helpful, but not every evil creature in Ravenloft has to be the darklord, as was mentioned earlier. Each of these historical personas could find a home in Ravenloft, even in Nova Vaasa, and they wouldn't need to have their own domain. As Nathan said, the domain is Working As Designed, the dichotomy is exactly what was intended.

[Manofevil]

cure, I disagree. My impression of the hags from Darklords was that they lived to eat even in the earlier days. Personally, I think the idea of simple gluttony is a very good foundation for DarkLords. It's commonplace and everyday. We see it all around us and have seen it for ages. I say keep the gluttony, but have the hags crave the flesh of anyone who becomes a stabilizing influence in Tepest, either consciously or unconsciously, so that they still remain the primary destabilizer in the land.

[cure]

Three gluttons is perhaps a little much, lest we envision the dark comedy of them fighting over the ungnawed bones.

Ravenous is ok. But it hardly can account for the organ culling, as opposed to whole body culling, and it fails to distinguish the sisters from ogres.

Gluttony doesn't have to go it its entirety, but neither does it seem sufficient, especially if there is to be any hope of differentiating the sisters so that each is distinguishable from the other. A preference for different body parts or basting styles is a little thin.

[DeepShadow of FoS]

cure, I disagree. My impression of the hags from Darklords was that they lived to eat even in the earlier days.

True, but even there, the cannibalism was merely a means to an end. They had a goal, something they have lacked ever since.

[Tykus]

[

"It is part of the curse of the land that there will always be a King Crocodile." p21 Islands of Terror.

This says to me that the Dark Lordship is a legacy of the land, and not a recurrence of the same King Croc should he die. A new croc takes up the mantle, and in a generation or two of the Wildlands none can remember, not even him, the difference between the new King Croc, or the King Croc of legend.

Makes one curious as to what needs to be done to remove that curse. My guess would be that the animals take back their gifts and re-introduce snakes to the Wildlands would be a part of it.

[brilliantlight]

Well, that's the problem with Borca. The entire domain is beautifully set up that the whole rotten system is eating itself apart from the inside, and if either of the two horrible people in charge dies the entire system will collapse like a soggy gingerbread house.

That's as well as maybe. But quoting from the Ravenloft Gazetteer IV, "If Ivan Dilisnya dies, laws would stabilize and the commoners' lives would likely improve, strengthening Ivana Boritsi's rule. Without Ivan's treacherous diplomacy, however, Borca's borders would be far more vulnerable to its foes."

The last sentence only applies to worlds where the normal rules apply; remember this is Ravenloft and darklords are the ultimate masters of their domains. Ivana would simply have to close her domain's borders to kill off an invading army before it could get started. Ivana seems well aware of her abilities and won't hesitate to use them. Then there are her emordenung assassins who could take out troublesome infiltrators. If she was the sole ruler than aides would take over the actual rule while she drowns her sorrows. Borca wouldn't exactly suffer if they lost Ivan.

Azrael isn't the DL of Sithicus. Inza Kulchevich is. I'd say she's earned her title, but even she needs more fleshing out.

Crocodile is one I have to agree with Isabella on. His curse is to be hunted and killed by humans? What, is he going to spend eternity on someone's stinky feet as boots?

Of the two Ivan certainly is more expendible. Borca could survive quite well without him. I agree about the croc.

[brilliantlight]

...but King Crocodile just bores the snot out of me. He does what, exactly? Eats things? And his curse is that someday he's going to die? Okay, let's do that and get a real darklord in there. (I have some ideas on the subject that I'm going to keep mum just now.)

Dont everyone go mental but does that description sound like another IoT DL, a certain Arijani?

Don't get me wrong Arijani is one fo my favourite DL and he has an excellent backstory, and is a great badass character, but what exactly does he do? Unless I've missed anything, as far as I can tell he eats stuff and looks for Ravanna's Bane, or actually no he doesnt, he gets the dark sisters to look for it. As written there is no motivation in his character to do.... well anything really, providing the sacrifices keep coming he can just sit around and worry about silver crossbow bolts.

And this really bugs me, enough that Im starting reworking the entire domain and adding some stuff in to get Arijani off his ass and do something about (did someone say civil war?).

Also his curse doesn't seem very bad. He can only appear as someone who is scary or hated. Big deal! He likes to be scary.

[Yaoi Huntress Earth]

Am I the only one that likes Ivan? I think people underestimate him. Yes he's a spoiled man-child with Marques de Sade undertones, but he's a lot smarter and craftier than he lets on. He wouldn't be able to handle all the diplomatic stuff and keep things at bay if he wasn't. He proves that you don't have to be a monster or ultra powerful to be a force to be reckoned with. I think him and Ivana "need" each other, otherwise the domain wouldn't have the conflict and less adventure hooks.

I never really liked the curse part of Tristian's (of Nova Vaasa) past. I'd got more with him being the victim of an abusive father who took the blunt of the abuse to protect his brothers. Due to his father's cruelty, the split personality Malken was created and Tristian would activate Malken to escape the abuse. So Malken grew to be a bitter, hate-filled personality that used Tristian (when he was in charge) to get back at the world.

One DL that really needs help is Shinpi. He's got a workable concept: an honnor-bound samurai that was so disgusted with the state of his country that in his pride, believed that he was the only one that could fix things and wasn't afraid to use that honor against other others. Make him active, let him temporarily possess others.

[Isabella]

I like Ivan as well. I love that he does all the diplomacy. He's a spoiled brat, but so what? In my write-ups I always have him as a great artistic and technological patron, because if someone proposes a shiny new toy Ivan absolutely must have it. I think a little too much time in the writeup got spent on what a slimeball he was and not enough time on what he actually does around the place, which is kind of a pity.

[Yaoi Huntress Earth]

I like Ivan as well. I love that he does all the diplomacy. He's a spoiled brat, but so what? In my write-ups I always have him as a great artistic and technological patron, because if someone proposes a shiny new toy Ivan absolutely must have it. I think a little too much time in the writeup got spent on what a slimeball he was and not enough time on what he actually does around the place, which is kind of a pity.

They did mention a little of his artistic patronidge and I'll admit that I busted up laughing at the mental of image of Ivan's backseat directoring when he sees a play. I would be interested in seeing your write-ups.

[Ail]

I personally never liked Urik Von Kharkov. Nor Hazlik. I don't feel Hazlan fits very well with Ravenloft, but that is my opinion. Of course Hazlik has some unique attributes and perhaps is a veiled way to introduce some taboo themes in the setting, but I don't like him.

As for the Wildlands, I'd change it entirely. Instead of being devoid of human beings, I would make something based on the primitive African cultures and explore to the fullest the fear invoked by jungle black magic that is ultimately at the base of voodoo. There's something about the darkness of the jungle and the crudity and cruelty of those bloody initiatic rites that harkens at me.

There's also the primeval fears of man, which if not at all gothic, is something I'd really like to explore in this setting. The fear of the world when the world is young: the night, the wild beasts, the diseases... these are all very powerful. And if they're not workable in such a modern setting as RL, well, put some explorers from the Core in a land where the rules are different, the magic is ancient, and for all their civility and civilization they too will fear the wild animal of the jungle and the distand drums in the night.

So much we could do with the Wildlands, indeed... if only the basic premise were changed.

Alex