Café de Nuit

With all due respect to John, I must agree with some of the other fans regarding the format of VRA and VRGttWD. I prefer the multiple voices format as it was used here because it emphasizes the twins' differences from the Good Doctor. Knowing their inexperience, they petition others to help in writing their first book (VRA), but as they gain more experience they use less of this (WD) and then none at all (SF). However it happened, it was a fortunate change that hardly warrants the bile flying around here.

DeepShadow wrote:However it happened, it was a fortunate change that hardly warrants the bile flying around here.

VRGttWD turned out well, which was fortuitous. That doesn't mean the way the format change happened wasn't a problem. Imagine the same thing happening in a Gazetteer, where the format is explained to the reader in the intro; an alternating format in such an instance would have been embarrassing at best and confusing at worst. And if John hadn't started doing volunteer work to fix formats, it would have happened more than once.

Things shouldn't have come to that; I know for a fact that John would have preferred to focus on his own projects rather than spending time the developers should have spent ensuring adherence to their format outlines (among other things).

Andrew Cermak wrote:VRGttWD turned out well, which was fortuitous. That doesn't mean the way the format change happened wasn't a problem. Imagine the same thing happening in a Gazetteer, where the format is explained to the reader in the intro; an alternating format in such an instance would have been embarrassing at best and confusing at worst. And if John hadn't started doing volunteer work to fix formats, it would have happened more than once.

In General I am glad Johm made sure the books were edited well. I am also glad the Gazetteer Kept the same tone,and format. As for the Van Richten Guides in 3rd editon, I can see why a new authors would change the format. If all the Van Richten Guides had been reproduced for 3rd editon, using the old format, I could understand getting upset about the change in tone and format, but the "Van Richten Guide to the Walking Dead" was the first Guide for People who had never seen a Van Richten Guide. I say this becuase 3rd edition was menat to attract as a whole a new audience. So, the 3rd edition Ravenloft is kind of a new beginning for the setting, and is for old fans and peolple that have never seen the setting in the 2nd edition.

If all the problems come form the editors of the line, I am sorry to hear that. It just seems that two group of authors, the kargatane and non kargatane authors, seem to be fighting and I hope it doesn't hurt Ravenloft. I know I will continue to support Ravenloft, and I appreciate all the hard work from everyone.

I'm not so certain about all this 'it's terrible for the fanbase' stuff. Personally, I take something great away with me every time I see one of these arguments flare up on a message board... it's like watching the aftermath of car crash. Somehow morbid, and certainly not worth spending your time over... but fascinating nevertheless.

I suppose the analogy could be stretched further - the car wreck is because as we live such short lives, we have a fascination with the end of it; watching a squabble like this is like vicariously living a life. On the one hand we have *insert respected author's voice here* saying this one thing, and you feel sympathy for their side, and then you hear *other respected author's voice here* and see that, actually, there was no reason to sympathise. Then you hear *demonised developer's/editor's voice* and realise that they do, actually, mean well, despite how they're demonised.

Actually, I suppose, it's more like pantomime.

No, actually, it's more like a social setting. Normally, with authors, you judge them on their ability to write and inspire you. Once you get to the level of personal interaction, which is a whole other enchilada, you can gain or lose respect outside of what is (fanboyishly) relevant.

In this particular instance, I think Rucht has shown himself up very well, and since he has acted politely and well behaved, my opinion of him has gone up, and any appraisal of his work is going to be affected by that. Equally, John's endless devotion to the setting, and the fact that he is constantly on the forums, adding his own to voice to countless campaigns, and so on, makes me respect him. Perhaps I agree with him on this issue, perhaps not. I know he's presented his case in a way which many would feel is impolite, or poorly mannered, or whatever - it basically comes down to what sort of person he is.

If he is deeply bitter over all that has happened, I can easily sympathise. I'm sure we can all understand wanting to place responisibility and blame elsewhere is something we don't *want* to do, but feel that it explains our actions. If there is something as simple as a miscommunication causing this much havoc, then it'd be hard to accept it as 'your fault' - but it seems, in this case, that too many people were too unsure of too many things, not least the question of who to turn to for advice.

In this way, I suppose, it's good for the fanbase, in that they can see more of how their beloved industry works (or doesn't). If people take sides, then I suppose it could hurt it; however, mostly, I believe people here love the setting first. The only thing here that is hurting the fanbase is that there were problems with incredibly popular artists not working together, and so, someone popular had to be dropped. We're all interested, morbid or not, and we really have no right to find out what was going on, it is your own private business. Is it, perhaps, that it should be worng to attempt to gather support to a side? Is that what might be happening here? Some kind of smear campaign? That's not hurting the fanbase. Is it?

I think that's enough random drunken dribblings with too vague an ending for now. I suppose I should have just asked 'What do you mean by 'hurting the fanbase'?'. Ah well. Drunken suppositions never caused nobody harm.

FavouredEnemy wrote:I think that's enough random drunken dribblings with too vague an ending for now. I suppose I should have just asked 'What do you mean by 'hurting the fanbase'?'. Ah well. Drunken suppositions never caused nobody harm.

That's what they said about drunken suppositories, too.

Rucht Lilavivat wrote:You are here admitting that you changed entries on your own without so much as a, "Hello, your entry is terrible." You changed the entries therein as an acting editor. But this was not your role.

Actually, Rucht, you might want to check the credits on that book again. My work on that book nabbed me a developer credit after the fact.

Secondaly, as to "admitting" my "shadow developer" work -- er, when have I ever denied it? Had I not explained my role in those books, how else would you know of it?

Third, might I point out -- again -- that to this day I have no idea who wrote what in DoDark (outside the Kargatane)? Exactly how should I have contacted you? Would that have required a supernatural or spell-like ability?

Fourth, I got the DoDark file after it had passed through the developers' hands and been delivered to editing. We've already established that you're unfamiliar with the editorial process -- shall we now discuss the concept of "looming deadlines?"

In short, at what point during the two weeks I spent racing through the book, trying to fix its errors, with every day pushing DoDark further and further off schedule, should I have reached into the ether and determined which authors -- who had already badly dropped the ball once -- should be given the precious time needed to learn the game system and rework their entries?

And since the developers got the file back once I was done with it, and seeing that, unlike me, they actually got paid for their developer work on that book, I ask again, why didn't they contact you, if that's the ethical thing to do?

Rucht Lilavivat wrote:You were hired on as an author. If you had been my editor, John, I really wouldn't have had a problem with it.

On that book, by the end, I officially was your editor, Rucht. I'll say to you what I said to Jimbo Lowder -- if you don't want your work revised, do better work.

No, not at all. I have never minded when my work has been altered or changed.

And yet, I'm apparently "unethical" for doing that very thing.

Rucht Lilavivat wrote:However, I disagree with the manner in which you went about enacting these changes. A friendly email would have sufficed.

I can picture how that one would have started:

"Dear anonymous author..."

John. As I told you before, I own all of the VRGs. I own some of them twice because they exist in compliation form. I've read them all multiple times. I chose to break away from the traditional format of the VRG on purpose, because of what I saw in the Van Richten's Arsenal.

Remember that it was the beginning of 3rd Edition. Dungeons and Dragons itself was going in a new direction, so I thought that Ravenloft was also taking off in a different direction.

How do you square this with your claim at the time that VRGttWD used the same format as all of those other books? Just, what, lack of attention?

Rucht Lilavivat wrote:As you said yourself, the fact that VRA was an abberant sourcebook was buried on p. 7, third paragraph. Note the word buried. I missed it. That's all there is to it.

...Oh, well, that answers that, then.

Rucht Lilavivat wrote:As far as my "terrible writing," I will only say this. Quality of writing is subjective.

Ah, not when it comes to technical writing, no. Then it's quite possible to be objectively wrong.

So, again: Which. DoDark. Monsters. Did. You. Write?

Rucht Lilavivat wrote:Andrew, thank you for pointing that out. Since John Mangrum was a developer for Denizens of Darkness, the responsibility fell upon him to email all of the authors for that book his redlines. As it was, we did not receive them.

In that case, it would have been nice for Arthaus to provide me with those e-mail addresses, wouldn't it? Rather than give me a credit well after the fact, which is what actually happened.

(To boil that down for the habitually simple: I found out I was a developer on DoDark for the first time when the FedEx box arrived and I opened the cover.)

I must say, I find it endlessly fascinating that you and Jim both find me unethical for committing actions that N&J had to approve to take effect -- and yet neither of you have a bad word to say about them.

Were I a cynic -- and gosh, I don't know how anyone could ever come to that conclusion about me -- I might have to think that you and Jimbo had both decided to assuage your bruised egos by pointing blame at the guy who isn't in a position to keep cutting you checks.

Other than that, you and Jimbo are quite different. Jim threw a tantrum because I didn't undermine the developers and risk my job for him enough, whereas you're merely upset because I failed to utilize my obviously far-advanced telepathic powers.

Desdichado wrote:I must confess that I am a bit shocked. I always thought of the Kargatane as the one big *dread* family that brought back the Mists into publication. I never thought that you all had so negative feelings towards each other after the end of your work.

Except for two guys who've simply dropped out of touch over the years, we ex-Kargatane do all still get along.

We also weren't responsible for bringing RL back into print. That was a done deal between Arthaus and WotC -- then they came to hire us as writers. Man, that was an exciting day.

Jasper wrote:The books creators squbble on and on about little nitpicks but in reality did that stop the book from getting purchised by the fans?

Well...

Jasper wrote:Raise your hand out there if you didn't buy COD or HOL just because it had a bad review? Or stoped using DOD just because the stats were wrong. Or tossed out VRGTTWD because it was written in many voices?

I see very few of you out there.

And to be honest, in the case of those first two -- that's just plain embarrassing. While I was working on the line, I had to actively block readers like you out of my mind. I tried to write for readers who actually gave a damn.

Make no mistake: Posts like this are the product of someone who doesn't care about quality. All you want are books with the Ravenloft logo shoveled your way, quality be damned. You sound like an addict, frankly, begging for a steady fix.

I mean, if you honestly don't care that the game accessories you're buying are filled with broken and unplayable rules, then you are the worst kind of fan and any game designer who pays heed to you is ultimately doing themselves in.

You are an enabler of bad books.

You are an open wallet, and you are explictly asking to be treated like one.

If you're happy to accept anything you get handed so long as it has the right label on it, then by golly, that is exactly what you get.

Oh my goth, Mangrum, please
CAN YOU ACCEPT that there might be many useful things in HoL?
For some dms?
If you don't, then you are out of the real world (I've used almost all of HoL in ravenloft tournaments (with up to 30 players) and we had absolutely no problem with the outcome. Noone had - yes I didn't use about 2 classes which I consider very badly written).

I don't see obviously broken things in HoL EXCEPT from the blessed defender's use of expertise. The NPCs are well written, the ending chapter had some ideas I used and some of the classes were brilliant
(to name a few: scholar, true innocent, dilettante, detective, anchorite inquisitor, anchorite wanderer).
You don't get that much quality PrCs in any other ravenloft book.
The artwork is great, the format too. It seems as a decent book that profited Ravenloft. Still squabbling over whether a blessed paladin should or should not be able to use his level 10 ability is ridiculous (after all, have you seen many level 15 characters around in Ravenloft?)

I do NOT accept bad rules in general. I am among the first ones to point out errors, trying to help with errata etc. I know that your post was not addressed to me, but I think it insulted me too.
If you really want to see what's a bad rule, check Swashbuckling Adventures books. Nice raw material and excellent story, but absolutely bad in editing and play balancing.
See here:
http://www.alderac.com/forum/viewtopic. ... 046#265046
for a sample of what kind of errors I could find there - the books were still useful and I am still having a great campaign in Theah. I just don't use their rules anymore (except for some "reference" to imagine their levels in d20 modern etc).

You may not agree with my view on HoL, but at least, you should accept reality that it was put into great use, so you should not dismiss anyone who liked it as a junkie addict or whatever. I think that this bad and "I know it all" attitude is what caused you problems with the other authors.

Sorry for it, it does sound as a personal attack, but I just try to persuade a person to be a bit more polite. If it wasn't for John (so, yes his opinion DOES have a special weight, as he really has excessive knowledge on the subject), his tone wouldn't be accepted so easily. And I ask the moderators: am I right on this remark? If I am not, I'll just shut up.

Gah...

Maybe it's time to stop digging deeper holes and start filling them back in?

I'm a firm advocate of quality over quantity, but attacking someone, and more importantly, a fan, who's got a different opinion to you on a book was just way off base.

Leave the fans out of it.

Seriously.

That was not cool.

Andrew Cermak wrote:

Desdichado wrote:Out of topic:

I must confess that I am a bit shocked. I always thought of the Kargatane as the one big *dread* family that brought back the Mists into publication.
I never thought that you all had so negative feelings towards each other after the end of your work.

I'm not sure what you mean. The Kargatane are/were me, Andrew, Andrew, John, Stu, Ryan, Chris, and Joe. We all get along swimmingly.

Our relationships with other Ravenloft writers vary from individual to individual, I imagine. I know I didn't work with many besides the Kargatane, so I don't have any feelings toward most of them one way or the other. This thread is probably the first or second time Rucht and I have "spoken" to one another.

Ah, well then. It has been so much bashing in this thread that I had the impression that you all didn't part as friends. And that would have been really awful, IMHO.

Mangrum wrote:

Desdichado wrote:I must confess that I am a bit shocked. I always thought of the Kargatane as the one big *dread* family that brought back the Mists into publication. I never thought that you all had so negative feelings towards each other after the end of your work.

Except for two guys who've simply dropped out of touch over the years, we ex-Kargatane do all still get along.

Very nice to hear! After all, your netbooks - an effort of cooperation - kept the fans' interest in the line as long as we had no published book on the shelves.

Mangrum wrote: You are an open wallet, and you are explictly asking to be treated like one.

If you're happy to accept anything you get handed so long as it has the right label on it, then by golly, that is exactly what you get.

Yeah, and so are we all.

Hell, I have three dozens of RL books lingering in my bookshelf, most of them for an edition I even don't play.

And yet, I am happy to have spent my money for them, even if I will never come to use them.

Mr Mangrum, do you really think we here at the FoS, hardcore RL fans for years, even for decades, will really think twice if there's a new book out that belongs to our favourite line?

Err, yes, of course we will, but our general attitude to new releases is more positive than any others' view. We are certainly not the group of clients you have to persuade to buy a RL book, set aside if some think it's good or bad.

This is the first time I say something this bold in the face of a Kargatane, but... John, cool off, could you? I understand the important point you're trying to get across, I've seen you express it before. I also see how what you've read in Jasper's post could have touched an important nerve. But I know Jasper since a long date from his posts, and frankly, what you are saying of him is untrue. That message of his did have quite a depht of meaning on the main subject, and finds echo in many of us, namely myself. Saying he's the personification of what's wrong with the current RL fanbase is a very poorly thought statement.

This is, by the way, coming from someone who refrained from purchasing CoD, HoL and DoDread, based on bad reviews. Reread Jasper's post and you'll see he's not encouraging people to grab everything that comes out. He's congradulating you for producing good Ravenloft.

I find the discussions like this run a lot better when main attention goes to the spirit of the poster's message, not small bits of dressing.