4e Ravenloft Conversion Thread

[cure]

Monsters
*Vampires – easy enough to do an anti-sun variant. The problem being balance, I can understand why they did it. The sun insta-kill always made vampire encounters tricky as clerics with sunbeam could finish them off.
I might simply add variant vampires (or variant rules) that take 10 radiant damage per round from natural sunlight after a minute of exposure (aka 10 rounds).
I’d also throw in some staking rules, possibly treating the stake as a grappling opponent with a gross bonus.

Resistance to 'sun burn' should be scaled to the age of the creature and the weakest/youngest should be toast rather quickly (not 10 rounds presuming rounds means the same thing as in 3e). Doesn't Strahd get 10 rounds in 3e before he is burnt to fine ash?

[Jester of the FoS]

I'm not sure if I'd do an age scale for 4e.
It was a good idea in 2e, when all vampires were static, as a way of scaling them for PCs of different levels.
But it really has no place in 4e where you can play with the monsters and easily make them any level.
A really experienced vampire would be powerful, but is that because they're high level or because they're really old? The two become indistinguishable.

So, really, the damage for sunlight could scale, doing more to weaker, younger vamps. However, as they have fewer hitpoints, they automatically die faster. So it self-regulates.

Big Bads, like Strahd, might have further resistance. Two minutes in the sun, perhaps.
On the other hand, as a solo monster, Strahd will have big bags of hitpoints so 10dmg/round will barely dent him. He could likely suntan for a full 10 minutes (100 rounds) before he was in real danger and had to flee.

Rule-wise I'd have the time in the sun need to be a full uninterrupted minute. Any time the vampire every manages to spend a round out of the sun (ending its turn shaded and starting its turn shaded) the countdown restarts. So players earn the extra damage from continually moving the vamp into the light and keeping them there.

[Nikolas of the Mists]

* Tieflings – similar to caliban, children corrupted in the womb, typically sired by those tainted or conceived in places of darkness. Likely more varied and able to pass for human (smaller horns)

This is very similar to what I was envisioning. I feel that the appearance would definitely have to be toned down for them not to be lynched outright [aka no horns], something a lot more human in quality like the tiefling Fraternity member mentioned in the one copy of QtR could just be one example of a variation in appearance. I could potentially see changing infernal wrath to be slightly different, and the Fiery Rebuke Paragon Tier feat would have some definite social drawbacks.

* Reality wrinkles – I’d give every fiend a “Reality Aura” for the centre of the wrinkle, which itself would be like 2000’ or 400 squares/ level. The aura might be a single square or so and be atmospheric.
And the term “immortal humanoid” has replaced “outsider” so I’d just use that, limiting it to those not native to the Mists.

Or certain [keywords] (Demon, Devil, etc) to have a Reality Wrinkle based upon their level.

Madness and Curses
Here’s the teaser:
I’m currently playing with the idea that curses and madness both use the same mechanics as disease.

Madness would be the most similar, (it is mental illness) but requires Insight checks to improve, maintain or worsen instead of Endurance.

Curses would be inflicted and either require Endurance checks to maintain (or worsen) but a behaviour needs to be followed or action done (aka the Escape Clause) for the condition to improve.

I like the madness idea, and could definitely see it working quite nicely.
The bonus from Open Mind (If you shift it from +4 to +2 as I mentioned) could apply to the insight check, as could a form of cooperation (p178 PHB, although I would potentially limit the maximum number of assists downward). Hypnosis is tricky because of the skill cutbacks in 4e, but would help as well, perhaps limiting just how far down the Madness track you can fall.

As for curses, maybe it's not a standard endurance check but something more related to the curse itself? The ability modifier for the Endurance check might not necessarily be CON, but a stat more appropriate to the curse.

(which avoids the question, what class is van Richten. He’s very warlord/leader-ish but wouldn’t get into melee like a warlord. But rogue doesn’t seem right either as he’s an old man).

If I had to pick right now? Trickster type rogue focusing on ranged attacks with a number of feats spent on Skill Training/Skill Focus, and Feat Multiclassed into Warlord.

4e makes scholars and tradesman very tricky and creates a situation that will require multiple prolific pundits to ponder and figure out.

[Jester of the FoS]

Or certain [keywords] (Demon, Devil, etc) to have a Reality Wrinkle based upon their level.

True, but abominations and angels also require wrinkles. Immortal humanoids (there's really not many in the MM) fits the bill nicely.

As for curses, maybe it's not a standard endurance check but something more related to the curse itself? The ability modifier for the Endurance check might not necessarily be CON, but a stat more appropriate to the curse.

Exactly! The default would be Endurance, but other skills might lend them to different curses.
I'm working on a list of examples for the Conversion Pamphlet.

If I had to pick right now? Trickster type rogue focusing on ranged attacks with a number of feats spent on Skill Training/Skill Focus, and Feat Multiclassed into Warlord.

4e makes scholars and tradesman very tricky and creates a situation that will require multiple prolific pundits to ponder and figure out.

Rogue McWarlord or even Rogue McCleric would be the ideal way. IF he was given the PC write-up.
But he works just fine as a NPC/monster with an expanded equipment and skill section. Dunno if he should be a solo or an elite. He's a big name but making him a normal keeps him usable with a group of PCs.

[Nikolas of the Mists]

For single-round effects (which most fear powers are) the bonus to saves is useless.
The save just means it's really easy for them to shake off lasting fear, which is fine. Halflings are very kender-ish so the resistance to fear works.

In normal campaign worlds it doesnt look like much, but in Ravenloft Fear "Saves" for adventurers are commonplace and for far more than just monster abilities [RL PHB 77-79].

Under 4e, a +5 racial bonus to save equates to an equivalent of 10 character levels to Will defense. That level 1 halfling with a 12 Wisdom score has the same Will Defense for Fear as a level 11 non halfling with the same wisdom (barring class and Charisma differences). Those two characters have the same Will Defense against Fear for the gigantic zombie that just bit off their fighter's head without a thought.

To me Kender-ish Halflings simply wouldn't survive in Ravenloft -- they'd always be the first to die and get eaten, their diminutive remains nothing more than a toothpick to that which devoured them. Fear afterall *is* an instinctive defense mechanism of the mind, and one that is why commonfolk and peasants haven't all been killed off or driven mad.

[Jester of the FoS]

That's not what "saves" mean though.

If we're using 3e fear and horror rules with 4e halfling characters then, yes, the +5 racial bonus is amazing.
The halfling bonus against fear is only applied to saving throws at the end of a character's turn to shrug off a fear effect. Which means that one-round fear effects or fear effects without a save ignore the halfling bonus. And that fear effects that prevent action still take the halfling out of the fight for at least one round. And even with the +5 they still have a 24% chance of failing.

The +5 bonus against fear does not apply to any defenses. At all. Every.

[Isabella]

I once proposed writing up Banemaw as a mist horror so as to give the creature a fragment of reality. Mangrum argued against doing so in these terms: "Well, the thing is, the 'dragon' of Nidala doesn't exist. Elena invented it to cover up her own massacres. I'm against introducing a 'reaL' dragon because it detracts from this aspect of Nidala's character. "

I would argue there's a big difference between a dragonborn and an actual dragon.

The trouble with that approach is that if all of these possibilities are true, you risk the implication that dragonborn are downright common in Ravenloft, which I think we all agree shouldn't be the case.

Not necessarily. Even if every possibility were true, if each possibility spawned say, twenty dragonborn, they wouldn't be common at all. And that's not including their ludicrously high mortality rate in Ravenloft from monsters, mobs, and would-be adventurers.

*Doppelgangers – Mind-reading is troublesome. How come they can’t anticipate your counteractions or predict your moves in combat?

I did post the idea that they could target someone and gain a huge bonus to their defenses against that person due to their mind reading (which would fit with the 3.5 doppelgangers, since they could only mind read one person at a time). No one seemed to like/notice it.

* Reality wrinkles – I’d give every fiend a “Reality Aura” for the centre of the wrinkle, which itself would be like 2000’ or 400 squares/ level. The aura might be a single square or so and be atmospheric.
And the term “immortal humanoid” has replaced “outsider” so I’d just use that, limiting it to those not native to the Mists.

Problem: That doesn't cover demons.

Demons are elemental humanoids now, not immortals.

(which avoids the question, what class is van Richten. He’s very warlord/leader-ish but wouldn’t get into melee like a warlord. But rogue doesn’t seem right either as he’s an old man).

I don't see a problem with Warlord. He'd have mostly support powers but still be able to stake a vampire himself if need be.

[Nikolas of the Mists]

That's not what "saves" mean though.

If we're using 3e fear and horror rules with 4e halfling characters then, yes, the +5 racial bonus is amazing.
The halfling bonus against fear is only applied to saving throws at the end of a character's turn to shrug off a fear effect. Which means that one-round fear effects or fear effects without a save ignore the halfling bonus. And that fear effects that prevent action still take the halfling out of the fight for at least one round. And even with the +5 they still have a 24% chance of failing.

The +5 bonus against fear does not apply to any defenses. At all. Every.

Ah, my mistake. When I read the racial descriptions for some reason I thought that the bonus was also applied to your Defense score for the initial attack on top of saves [a la Saving Throws in 3.5].

This gets exacerbated by what I was thinking of for Fear, Horror, & Madness checks in 4e:

Value vs Will Defense.

Courage, Jaded, and Open Mind would all be bonuses to this Will Defense, in addition to any ongoing effects necessitating Saving Throws.
This was the reason I recommended changing their racial ability to the revised Courage feat. My mistake (though I cannot promise there won't be more )

The value of the save would be calculated similar to how it was in 3.5, although this may require a reduction in values to accomodate for what equates to lower "defenses".

[Nikolas of the Mists]

that's not including their ludicrously high mortality rate in Ravenloft from monsters, mobs, and would-be adventurers.

Let’s not omit pitchforks from the equation either. Not that I will be using them in my campaign.

*Doppelgangers – Mind-reading is troublesome. How come they can’t anticipate your counteractions or predict your moves in combat?

I *think* I came across a monster in the new MM has an ability to "mindread" an opponent and obtain a bonus to his defenses for the encounter. I will see if I can find it tonight. Isabella’s idea might be so awesome that I am already mistaking it for something from the books

Demons are elemental humanoids now, not immortals.

Yeap. Devils are immortal humanoids, not demons are not. Might have to resort to keywords afterall.

I don't see a problem with Warlord. He'd have mostly support powers but still be able to stake a vampire himself if need be.

Aside from more uses of Inspiring Word, there really isn’t an awful lot Warlord offers that you couldn’t simply multiclass into and take with the Acolyte Power (utility replacement) feat.

[Isabella]

Yeap. Devils are immortal humanoids, not demons are not. Might have to resort to keywords afterall.

I really don't see what's wrong with just relegating reality wrinkles to the land of fluff. I know there's some kind of prevailing school of thought that says fluff doesn't matter if there's no rule to back it up, but I think that needs to get thrown by the wayside, especially for Ravenloft. Does it really add to the monster to have an entry in their stat block that reads: "4000 square aura, darklord powers (which aren't indicated in their write-ups) don't work within the aura, paladins can detect alignment (a class feature they no longer have), reality wrinkles can pass through closed domain boarders (another thing that would be ludicrous to write up as an ability)? Is there any reason not to put the abilities they gain from their ability to warp the reality wrinkle as just normal abilities, knowing they will never be outside of their own aura?

Not to mention there are some fiends that, by virtue of being familiars or performing a bunch of power rituals, don't have them. And I still recall some of the writers being driven to drink by the endless questions on how they worked. Just slap "this creature has a reality wrinkle" into the description and be done with it, I say.

[Nikolas of the Mists]

The easiest way to do it would simply be to describe the abilities of a Reality Wrinkle as if it were an ability in the MM glossary, then simply put "Reality Wrinkle" in each entry under abilities, listing the range and anything exceedingly out of the ordinary to that specific wrinkle.

[DocBeard]

Fear, Horror, and Madness.

These are classic parts of the setting. With the advent of skill challanges, encounters, and terrain aspects as part of an encounter, I think they need to be reasessed. First, relevant stats.

Fear: You defend against fear with your Reflex score. Why? Because fear is a gut reaction. You're either scared, or you're not.

Horror: Fortitude. Horror's always been a slower, creeping thing. Horror is a matter of being tougher than the scene in front of you, even if your inital reaction is poor.

Madness: Will. This should be obvious.

Now, my thought: The three traits should be, instead of indipendent kinds of saving throws, terrain or encounter attributes. A certain attack could have the madness trait, and force a madness roll, while a trap could be increasingly deadly by having a horrific aspect to it.

Thoughts?

[cure]

Corruption Indexes and Reality Wrinkles are interlocking. The higher the former the smaller the latter. And corruption indexes matter not only in terms of the 'fluff' of the creatures goals (escape Ravenloft or party on the locals) but also in the number of land based powers, many of which function within the radius of the wrinkle. How that should be written up in 4e I have no clue, but it most certainly should survive any transition.

[cure]

DocBeard,

I always thought there was considerable justice in anchoring Fear, Horror and Madness to Wisdom and Will saves. First, it gave the cleric a special role as the 'spiritual' rock of one's party. Second, it gave wise people generally that role. Third, because of their knowledge and their Will save progression, it gave Wizards/Sorcerers a decent chance to rationally judge situations and call for a hasty retreat as appropriate rather than running, screaming from the scene. Knowledge of what is out there and what is possible should have its rewards. If you like, it is philosophical toughness. A wizard may be unable to bash to death a tenth of what a fighter can, but a wizard should be less susceptible to having not only his mind but his judgement generally unhinged by the utterly unexpected since there is less of it for him.

[Nikolas of the Mists]

Thoughts?

The greatest reason to not change it up like that is in the fact that 3.5 had it purely based off of a will save. It was all mind over matter.

In gaming familiarity doesn't breed contempt. In fact, as we have seen it is quite the opposite.

It's a fairly easy jump I feel to have Fear, Horror and Madness pitted against a defense, for me Will just seems the most straightforward.
While I may like the idea of different Defenses for these three aspects of Ravenloft, I don't totally agree because of the stats the Defenses are based upon.

REF is the better of your Dex or Int. I could see Int playing a factor towards overcoming Fear Checks because of reason.
"It's only a skeleton, even simpleton necromancers can do that, it's nothing to be scared of."
Dex on the other hand? Not so much.

FORT is the better of your Str or Con. Con could play a role in the physical effects of minor Horror effects, but Str I totally disagree with. I don't care how physically strong you are, it won't stop you from panicking when you've seen your best friend eviscerated by a demon from Hell.
The other thing to consider is that Not all horror checks result in a physical effect. The listed Moderate and Major Horror Effects all result in psychological responses, not physiological responses.

WILL is the better if your Wis or Cha. You cannot decry wisdom for any of these Defenses really especially for Madness. Charisma on the other hand, not so much. Angelina Jolie wouldn't be better at staving off madness than the average person is just because of her appearance and personality.

====

Optimally I would say the Wisdom ability score modifier would be best for any of these three Ravenloft checks.

10 +1/2 your level + Wis modifier + other bonuses

Despite the stupidity of the aforementioned Charisma role toward WILL defenses, I would still be inclined to use it because it's simple, and because of all the things out there that add to WILL defenses that would help ward off these effects. It could also be something as simple as a WILL defense, but you use your Wis bonus even if your Cha is the better modifier.

If you wanted to break it down slightly more and incorporate different "Defenses" for these checks I would consider this:

Fear: 10+1/2 your level + Int modifier + other bonuses
Horror: 10+1/2 your level + Con modifier + other bonuses
Madness: 10+1/2 your level + Wis modifier + other bonuses

With Horror checks you would still face the aforementioned problems of Moderate and Major Horror effects which reside in the mind, not the body.

The second you do that it 1) Breaks the KISS rule of 4e and 2) No longer makes it a Defense so abilities of the Cleric and Warlord, and racial abilities which add your Defense no longer count.