Gazetteer Metaplot

[Ail]

Hi,

I can't answer most of them, but I think I can give a light to some.

I just read all pages of this thread and I would like to know some stuff that isn't clear here and neither in my mind:

-The first Dukkar wasn't a half-fiend, at least to my knowledge. In the red box, states that the Dukkar is the Male vistani born with the sight, not born form an ilegitimate relationship with a fiend. So I might venture in saying that beein the son of a fiend (namely the GC) does not make Malocchio a Dukkar per se, but he has the sight. Is this correct?

-How much knowledge has the GC of Ravenloft? for all I know he is a stranger in a strange land; escaping form Isolde. It's a mystery to me, why does he always approach women to have "a night thogether" only to leave short after he's finished. Does this means only that he has a grand plan to destroy/escape ravenloft? I don't think so. For doing so he should have A LOT OF KNOWLEDGE (if not all) about the fabric of ravenloft, which I find it to be impossible. Maybe he's only doing what he does best: create chaos and dissorder everywhere he goes. After all he's only a fiend.

Does anyone have answers to this questions? I know that maybe they can be silly but they can help me understand better where is this whole thing going to. Thanks!!

I may be wrong in this, but as far as I recall, when Hyskosa appeared the whole concept of the Dukkar hadn't been invented. He simply was a male Vistana with the sight. Then they made Malocchio which was a male vistana (half-vistana, though) with the sight, and these, was said, would bring the whole Vistani people to doom. Hyskosa was retrofitted as a Dukkar and more dreaded after that. By definition, he should now be cause for Vistani doom, although that was not initially thought. Malocchio is a Dukkar because he is Vistana (although partially) and was born with the sight.

As for the other one, the GC is an incubus. The nature of these demons is to "incubate" their seed in women, that's why he's always after them. They were one of the most dreaded and useful demons in the middle ages: you could always claim you were pregnant from a demon instead of having committed adultery... althouh this alternative might not be too pleasant anyway.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

To answer a few of the questions:
Yes, in Spectre of the Black Rose Mallocchio is trapped in Invidia. (He's trapped in the events of The Evil Eye shortly after reaching adulthood and before coming to any real sort of power.) I don't remember the confrontation that well, but Mallocchio would be smart to run. With the border stuck between them, Soth had fireballs, power words, etc while Mallocchio had only his minions and his charming evil eye to work with. Not gonna happen on Soth.

Hyskosa and Mallocchio are Dukkars because they are vistani males with the Sight. Fiendish heritage has nothing to do with their Dukkar-ness, although it is the reason why Mallocchio is so dangerous. When Hyskosa is introduced in NotWD, no mention is made of his Dukkar-ness, or even that a male vistani with the sight is a bad thing. That must've been added later. (probably VRGttV, I think).

Having S as the daughter of Van Richten is cute, but I don't think it fits the evidence. The only child VR ever mentioned is Erasmus, and the only woman he ever seemed to have feelings for other than his wife is Ottelie Farringer (or was it Claudia de Shanes? I forget). I think it's pretty clear from Ryan's hints that S is a clone of Azalin, and it makes a lot of sense. Also, here's some circumstantial evidence: John Mangrum (I think) once commented on the artwork for S, saying that one of the pictures (I think Gaz IV) was too young and pretty and that one of the others (Gaz III?) was more accurate. The more accurate one bore quite a resemblence to Azalin's face (the live version), down to the hawk-like nose. If I recall correctly, John had some sketch of S he shared with us all once and on that sketch was also a mention of the importance of the hawk-like nose. Didn't notice the conneciton at the time, but now it makes sense.

[Seamus]

-How does Azalin know of the GC? Does he met him? Is there any reference of him talking to him and/or finding out the GC's plans?

It's true Azalin has likely never met the GC (although it's possible he has). But the GC has been around Ravenloft a long time and he's done a number of things that Azalin would find worthy of investigation. He's the father of the Dukkar for one, which is the major reason Azalin might have started looking into him. But more generally, the GC is a fiend, which makes him noteworthy to begin with, and he has the odd habit of siring half-fiendish children, which would likely have caught Azalin's attention in time, Dukkar aside.

I don't recall any solid information about S finding something about the GC. Is there anything concrete about S knowing anything in particular about the GC??

S knows of the GC only from the story of Malocchio's birth. She had no idea who he was when she met him in person. As S's complaining makes pretty clear, S is kept in the dark by Azalin. She's researching the GC's children without even knowing that they are the point of her research.

The first Dukkar wasn't a half-fiend, at least to my knowledge. In the red box, states that the Dukkar is the Male vistani born with the sight, not born form an ilegitimate relationship with a fiend. So I might venture in saying that beein the son of a fiend (namely the GC) does not make Malocchio a Dukkar per se, but he has the sight. Is this correct?

That is correct. Malocchio is a Dukkar because he has the Sight, not because he's a half-fiend. The GC's other (theorized) sons by vistana mothers don't seem to have the Sight and so thus aren't Dukkars. That said, I still maintain that creating a Dukkar was the GC's goal. Dukkars are evil and possess a rare (for men) supernatural gift, so it's reasonable to assume that fiendish blood could increase the likelihood of a Vistani boy being born a Dukkar.

How much knowledge has the GC of Ravenloft? for all I know he is a stranger in a strange land; escaping form Isolde. It's a mystery to me, why does he always approach women to have "a night thogether" only to leave short after he's finished. Does this means only that he has a grand plan to destroy/escape ravenloft? I don't think so. For doing so he should have A LOT OF KNOWLEDGE (if not all) about the fabric of ravenloft, which I find it to be impossible. Maybe he's only doing what he does best: create chaos and dissorder everywhere he goes. After all he's only a fiend.

Steve Miller mentions that it is possible that the GC doesn't have a plan, and that as you suggest that he's just roaming around being fiendish. However, he offers the alternative suggestion that the GC deliberately entered Ravenloft with a plan, having already been informed of much of the nature of the realm, and that everything he has done since arriving has been towards a specific purpose that he had before he ever entered the Land of Mists.

S is one of Azalin's clones, created with the hope that someday he could learn more magic through them. Does anyone think that there was other purposes other than that? I mean, is Azalin so cautious in planning his next move, that he even forsaw his failure in the Grim Harvest and did plan his next move against the DPs??

I only learned that S might be a clone of Azalin in this thread, so I could hardly guess Azalin's intentions. Azalin strikes me as particularly arrogant however. I think he invests so much into his plots that he assumes they will work, and that hubris is part of why they always fail. So I doubt his clones were conceived as part of any back-up plan. That said, Azalin is very clever, and would never waste an existing resource, so when he hatched a new plan, it's likely that S was chosen specifically and could well be integral to the plan.

[Isabella]

Since most of this topic is building off of the same points, and since J. Mangrum has stated that every fan that has speculated on the metaplot is completely off base (except that one guy), I propose that the only way to deciper the intentions of Azalin is to throw all of this speculation out the window and try again from scratch.

Who wants to start?

(Put the torch down. I'm joking.)

[Boccaccio Barbarossa]

Since most of this topic is building off of the same points, and since J. Mangrum has stated that every fan that has speculated on the metaplot is completely off base (except that one guy), I propose that the only way to deciper the intentions of Azalin is to throw all of this speculation out the window and try again from scratch.

Who wants to start?

(Put the torch down. I'm joking.)

But it is tempting... especially since we may never know for certain...

Hey... guys... that burns... ouch! HEY!!! Put that out!

[Don Fernando]

Thank you very much for the answers, guys. With this knowledge I guess I can resume some of the commmon knwoledge about this whole meta(mega)-plot. Please correct me if I'm wrong:

Azalin, creates several clones in the hopes that one day he will learn some new magic. Obviously enough many of these clones do no reach adulthood, but some do and have some clear purpose in The Lich King's plans (Death and now S).
With this in mind, Azalin arranges that S embarcs on a (until now) three year journey throughout the core in search of specific informaion about the domains, people, history and amazingly, Darklords. (How Azalin or S know about darklorship is a another question we should answer).

Now, we don't know for sure if some of the following facts are accurate. All of them have been discussed here:

1. Azalin knows the Gentelman Caller. either by chance, by hearing weird stories or by meeting him personaly. Which opens the possibility that the Gaz series is made to find out more specific information else about this Caller guy.

2. The deepest darkest secret of all is the Caller's intention and purpose. And for sure we cannot speculate any further about why Isolde followed him to Ravenloft.
Two things though. If the Gentelman caller knew about the demiplane and had a plan working on, even before entering Ravenloft, he should have known also that there was no easy way out, if ever there was one. So why would he ever enter? Was that plan worth sacrificing freedom?
And two, Isolde, beeing a greater Eladrin, and by definition a much more powerful beeing than an Incubbus, didn't know about the demiplane. She was warned by the powers about it's hazzards and therefore she was offered a choice: loose your powers and follow, or leave that accursed place in peace. We all know what happened.

3. The Caller's children. This is a tricky one. Let's start discussing who was the Caller's firstborn. Was it Malocchio? I'm asking this question because if he was, then maybe we can speculate about some master plan of the GC's. He went straight to Gabrielle, which can prove some intention, and therefore a plan.
If this is not the case, then we can say that he's only doing what he was born to do. Spawn more demon spawns, that later can be added to the fiendish armies of the lower planes.

4. Death Undaunted. Literally the Missing Link in Ravenloft. As I understood it, this document was supposed to be the link between 2nd and 3rd Ed, simply explaining a lot of the stuff we are now discussing.

5. The Time of Unparalleld Darkness (ToUD). Mr. Mangrum wrote that this Gaz plot IS not a plan to trigger the ToUD, at it's culmination it will be one of many events. So no master plan for Azalin here. I would like not to venture a guess yet, but it seems to me this gaz series would have ended with a Requiem ending (new darlord, lots of people killed, new domain(s)).

Is there something missing? I guess this can be a starting point to find out what this plot is about.

[Stygian Inquirer]

The deepest darkest secret of all is the Caller's intention and purpose. And for sure we cannot speculate any further about why Isolde followed him to Ravenloft.
Two things though. If the Gentelman caller knew about the demiplane and had a plan working on, even before entering Ravenloft, he should have known also that there was no easy way out, if ever there was one. So why would he ever enter? Was that plan worth sacrificing freedom?
And two, Isolde, beeing a greater Eladrin, and by definition a much more powerful beeing than an Incubbus, didn't know about the demiplane. She was warned by the powers about it's hazzards and therefore she was offered a choice: loose your powers and follow, or leave that accursed place in peace. We all know what happened.

We actually do not know if the GC is an ordinary incubus. In QtR #7, there is are four statted out possibilities; those being: incubus, greater incubus, incubus with sorcerer levels, greater incubus with sorcerer levels. Some of these possibilities would allow him to compete with Isolde who is a Ghaele who has lost most of her celestial abilities but has gained the abilities of a 10th level paladin. This is from Champions of Darkness.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

3. The Caller's children. This is a tricky one. Let's start discussing who was the Caller's firstborn. Was it Malocchio?

Vigo was born in 705.
Mallocchio in 747.
Don't know about the others, but Mal's not the first.

[The Dark One]

4. Death Undaunted. Literally the Missing Link in Ravenloft. As I understood it, this document was supposed to be the link between 2nd and 3rd Ed, simply explaining a lot of the stuff we are now discussing

If you read the NON CANNON novel Lord of Necropolis, i believe you find the link that is missing, since it mainly describes the Requiem and the after events, but you will need to make some "arrangements" about the end - since Azalin becomes the One with the Dark powers.


After i read Steve Miller GC possibilites: the GC isn't plan of the gazetters metaplot, neither his children.

PS: don't come and say Azalins plan is that S bears a GC child!

[Don Fernando]

The deepest darkest secret of all is the Caller's intention and purpose. And for sure we cannot speculate any further about why Isolde followed him to Ravenloft.
Two things though. If the Gentelman caller knew about the demiplane and had a plan working on, even before entering Ravenloft, he should have known also that there was no easy way out, if ever there was one. So why would he ever enter? Was that plan worth sacrificing freedom?
And two, Isolde, beeing a greater Eladrin, and by definition a much more powerful beeing than an Incubbus, didn't know about the demiplane. She was warned by the powers about it's hazzards and therefore she was offered a choice: loose your powers and follow, or leave that accursed place in peace. We all know what happened.

We actually do not know if the GC is an ordinary incubus. In QtR #7, there is are four statted out possibilities; those being: incubus, greater incubus, incubus with sorcerer levels, greater incubus with sorcerer levels. Some of these possibilities would allow him to compete with Isolde who is a Ghaele who has lost most of her celestial abilities but has gained the abilities of a 10th level paladin. This is from Champions of Darkness.

Agreed, but I guess the QtR series cannot be considered cannon per se, I mean, we are talking about official published products only, not fan made documents. Unless it was spefically published by one of the actual writers. This way we can dissipate confussion and stick to the facts.

[Jester of the FoS]

Thank you very much for the answers, guys. With this knowledge I guess I can resume some of the commmon knwoledge about this whole meta(mega)-plot. Please correct me if I'm wrong:

Azalin, creates several clones in the hopes that one day he will learn some new magic. Obviously enough many of these clones do no reach adulthood, but some do and have some clear purpose in The Lich King's plans (Death and now S).
With this in mind, Azalin arranges that S embarks on a (until now) three year journey throughout the core in search of specific information about the domains, people, history and amazingly, Darklords. (How Azalin or S know about darklorship is a another question we should answer).

The more we go one the more I think S is not a clone. When the hint that she was the illegitimate child of a Darkonese noble was release the two big names that popped out were the Caller and Azalin. The Caller idea was pointed out as incorrect quickly so everyone just assumed the relation to Azalin.
But it really doesn't seem to fit. If she were a clone she's not really a child and she's not really illegitimate. And if she were a clone why would she be female? And why would a clone (a plan created by Azalin only a few decades old) be allowed to have her own independent life where she has a child of her own?
And I Azalin really doesn't count as a Darkonese noble. He's not a noble he's the king. And he's not really Darkonese as much as the ruler of Darkon; it's own false history suggests the people of that land view him as an outsider who came in and defeated the past ruler.
Likewise the idea of multiple clones being employed with transferred consciousness raised too many questions.

S may not be the illegitimate child of van Richten (my current theory) but I really don’t think she’s a clone anymore.

My overall guess of the culmination of the plan is something that reshapes the entire demiplane. We know it was something that was to bridge the gap between 3rd and 4th editions, they wanted something BIG. Something that could usher in all sorts of changes.
Given the hints that war would be unleashed across the Western Core (a sign that Falkovnia and Vlads’ restrictions may have been lessened) and the words spoken by the Tribe of Hykossa at the start of GazV I’d speculate that Azalin was less interested in freeing himself from the Demiplane directly and more interested in freeing himself from his curse and tie to the land. If the curses and ties to the land were all lifted then it would make his escape easier.

Think of what would happen if Darklords were able to leave their domain. If borders could shift and the world was cohesive. Many lords would stay in their own realms anyway, that’s simply where they are strongest. Others might enjoy exploring.
Given that the Dukkar(s) can bend the rules and let darklords move between realms it’s a matter of identifying which of the Caller’s children qualify as Dukkar and harnessing their abilities.

[Mangrum]

Also, here's some circumstantial evidence: John Mangrum (I think) once commented on the artwork for S, saying that one of the pictures (I think Gaz IV) was too young and pretty and that one of the others (Gaz III?) was more accurate.

The accurate illustration was Talon's in Gazetteer II.

[Scede]

Is it possible that she may be Death's child? Before he became undead, that is. I don't have my timeline handy. How old was Baron Metus?

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

Also, here's some circumstantial evidence: John Mangrum (I think) once commented on the artwork for S, saying that one of the pictures (I think Gaz IV) was too young and pretty and that one of the others (Gaz III?) was more accurate.

The accurate illustration was Talon's in Gazetteer II.

Heh, my memory's playing trick on me. That one's the one with just her back. heh... accurate indeed. I was thinking of the one on page 5 of Gazetteer IV (as opposed to the one on page 86, oddly enough by the same artist as page 5). I thought that was the one you'd said was good. But in retrospect, it doesn't have the hawk nose I remember. I may be conflating it with the sketch you did. I think there's also one somewhere with her face covered by a veil, but I can't find it.

Ah well, nevermind everyone. The circumstantial evidence I thought was there isn't.

[Mangrum]

I think there's also one somewhere with her face covered by a veil, but I can't find it.

That's Gaz III. Why is she wearing a veil? I have no idea. (For that matter, why does she consistently wear Dementlieuse fashions in all but Talon's illustration? No idea.)

Personally, however, I didn't like the idea of putting clear illustrations of S in the books to begin with, so the fact that none of those pictures actually resembled her as she'd been described in the text was just an added disappointment. Take that for what it's worth.