5e announced!

[Le Noir Faineant]

Anyway, do you know what I think WotC secretly hopes? That there will be more "Pathfinders" out there, using the OGL to make antagonists of PFinder itself, eroding their fanbase. That would generate a new interest in RPG systems in general, if there were 3-4 3.75E to pick from + 5E instead of just PF and 5E.

I suppose you mean just dnd/d20 and not savage worlds, gurps, brp, unisystem, storyteller system, and the other various rpg systesms that do exist out there?

Also, yeah, one of the things I don't like about this debate is this notion that the hobby is ending
because Wizards doesn't sell any more books.

The truth is, many other companies do way better than Wizbro - mainly, because they listen to their fans.


*Pets his "Dragon Warriors" 2e book and Tekumel manual.*

[Five]

Truth is, with all the venom against WotC, with the OGL they were far more generous than they could survivibly be. Some CEO is propably looking for work now for that OGL.

On the positive side, the OGL can be viewed as the roleplaying world's "Olly olly oxen free!". It a) called out all real and potential competition, as well as established a Dicken's 'who's who' of the genre (past, present, future) , which can lead to b) a talent scouting system that cost little to no resources, that can tapped at a later date (authors, 'mechanics, editors, artists, etc), which can lead to c) an aggressive QA-QC system that when implemented will solidify both company and product placement within the future market.

Another way to think of it is "space probe". Free technology on one hand (that can come back to haunt its sender if fallen into the wrong hands), a communication device on the other that carries with it the possibility of improving the species. Damn straight it's a gamble. But, as they say, you can't win the jackpot if you don't play.

If heads do roll or have rolled at WotC for the OGL, then you might want to keep that name on the rolodex just in case things do pan out in the bigger picture. That, and so you don't create a Moriarty for yourself...if you haven't already done so.

The decision to combat their own creation is what baffles me.

[Five]

The truth is, many other companies do way better than Wizbro - mainly, because they listen to their fans.

I'm getting the feeling that it's more of a sagging under the pressure of legendary status thing than not listening to their fans. Just take a look at Black Sabbath, a band with multi-generational appeal (influences are across the board). The original lineup hasn't put out a new song since '78 (aside from a few dl studio tracks), yet have reunited numerous times in the past and still have/had that 'sold out' factor. The pressure to outdo oneself, or, the expectation to always be viewed as a certain way, to always be at the top of the game...that can be extremely debilitating. Especially when there's new blood on the rise, blood that has at one point in time been born of yours. Ultimately, the direct competition lies within themselves and what they have achieved. And it'll be that way until they give up the ghost. It's the price they pay for being on top for so long. But, that doesn't mean they can't still expand the shadow of their legend. Sure, old school support is going to gripe that you aren't the same as you were x number of years ago (which you can turn around and ask them what happened to their rattail heh), but that can't be helped. It's just another obstacle to overcome. At least, in WotC's case, they're putting the effort in to continue forward...

All that said, maybe you're right. Maybe they just don't listen to their fans/customers and could care less about anything other than sales figures. I couldn't say either way because I don't know nobody within that company. So I'll bow-out of that speculation.

One thing I'd like to see in 5E is a system that can tie in all previous editions, a plug 'n play. I mentioned earlier about pdf'n past products, and this would certainly cut production costs for the older editions to next to nothing. Maybe a fresh (re)publication of the 'classics' (voted on by the fans?), but largely an electronic support system. Publish new rules, tie-in advice, a horde of DM tools, modules (adventures), but use everything in the arsenal. If you can checkmate in your next move, then why wouldn't you?

That chokehold thing that Darth Vader used? That should be an inspirational poster in every office setting...heh

Or this as WotC's new one, if they're going to stick to a completely new edition:

[HuManBing]

My Expanded Universe reading isn't as up-to-date as it used to be, which explains why that picture looks to me like Darth Vader is strangling She-Hulk from Marvel...

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

No, she's clearly an Orion slave girl.

I don't know that the OGL is to blame for WotC's ills. True that PF wouldn't exist without it, but it's hard to imagine the RPG world without it now. Would 3e have been nearly as successful as it was? Would 4e even exist if 3e hadn't been so successful? And would a similar OGL for 4e have encouraged some of that same success in 4e?

The OGL was great for WotC while they were still publishing compatible material. And Paizo is still doing well with it, even though they seem to release even more of their stuff under OGL than WotC did. It's when they switched to an incompatible system at the same time as stopping the OGL that the trouble hit.

[Jonathan Winters]

Yeah, what Gonzoron said about WotC's problems... And (don't know if I can find this or not), Monte Cook (at least a couple of years ago) on his blog (I think) had said the if WotC does well, D&D does well. And the was taking into account his own company's well-being. Meaning that 3rd parties were rather small in the scheme of things and they needed WotC much more than WotC needed them.

Here is my take on it. All numbers are pretty much ''guesstimates'' on my part.
3e: WotC had the D&D market share at 85-95% with the 3RD PP having the rest. When 4E was introduced we had the ''Great Schism''. I know some people played both editions at the beginning. And were happy. Fast forward three(?) years later. It looks/feels like the numbers are now 50%/50% or something to that effect. Would an OGL 4E have really hurt WotC that much? Somehow, my personal opinion, I don't think so.

Also, I'm a Kobold Quarterly subscriber and the amount of 4E articles are dwindling with each issue. Whether KQ patrons are PF-lovers in general or it really is a sign of the times I can't tell. Also, you know what I'm seeing more of? Dragon Age articles, Bestiary, conversion guides for KQ products. Rather interesting... Enough rambling. Sorry.

Patrick

[Five]

I don't know that the OGL is to blame for WotC's ills. True that PF wouldn't exist without it, but it's hard to imagine the RPG world without it now. Would 3e have been nearly as successful as it was?

I think the longevity of 2E may have played a factor in 3E's success as well. Eleven years between 2E and 3E, while only eight between 3 and 4. Second edition players had a chance to really play and grind the rules, settle into their homebrews and all that fun stuff (to the point of perhaps making the option of changing the rules an exciting change of pace for those whose games had started becoming 'stale'), while third editioners barely had a chance to grease theirs before .5 came along and from there, fourth edition. And now the gap between fourth and fifth is lesser still.. The shelf life of people's games are lessening (obviously not all, as the 2E hold-outs can attest to hooah!). In total: OE/1E= 15 years, 2E= 11 years, 3E (including .5)= 8 years, 4E= 5 years?. Maybe that's reflective in sales?

It'd be interesting to be a fly on the wall over at WotC, to say the least.

[HuManBing]

Games Workshop had a similar increase in edition-churn rate for their Warhammer rulesets. This led to fans becoming quite upset, as they would buy an edition and then in a matter of a few years learn that their edition had been obsoleted.

Ultimately, editions are meaningless to the gaming group. I salute the 1e and 2e fans on this forum who are still playing Ravenloft in their older editions. Although 3e did bring some setting development (and in my opinion, came the closest of any edition to a realistic, believable, persistent game world for Ravenloft - though the adventure modules were few), 4e has been pretty thin on the RL material.

Once you have an adventure in any edition, it's fairly easy to convert it to another edition or even a different rules system. It's worth buying the different modules of different rulesets just to see what you can convert to your campaign.

[Scipion_Emilien]

Just a thought, but perhaps the long hiatus between 2e and 3e actually helped 3e sales. People (at least me) were more receptive for anything as a new D&D edition after the long time without support than they would be now.

[alhoon]

As rules go, let's not forget: It's the story that matters.
People are running Ravenloft with WoD or Gourps or other non D&D systems and have fun.

As for WotC not listening to their fans: About killing the PDFs in the digital age, I would agree. It was insane to do so. Piracy? Riiiight, because books can't be scanned, right? Oh, it would take 2 weeks after release to find them in pirate sites. That would stop piracy.

About the settings, I don't know. I think they went with what the majority of the fans wanted. However, 80% x 80% x 80% x 80% = 41% So following the majority instead of trying to go for everyone in important issues ended up with them leaving out... the majority eventually.

It also has to do with the books themselves too I think. Even in 3E they published books that few people would buy in dead-tree form. Sure, I never checked magic of Incarnarum (Sp?) and it may be the best book ever. But I didn't feel like I needed to check it, and I think many just skipped it.

[ewancummins]

I don't know that the OGL is to blame for WotC's ills. True that PF wouldn't exist without it, but it's hard to imagine the RPG world without it now. Would 3e have been nearly as successful as it was?

I think the longevity of 2E may have played a factor in 3E's success as well. Eleven years between 2E and 3E, while only eight between 3 and 4. Second edition players had a chance to really play and grind the rules, settle into their homebrews and all that fun stuff (to the point of perhaps making the option of changing the rules an exciting change of pace for those whose games had started becoming 'stale'), while third editioners barely had a chance to grease theirs before .5 came along and from there, fourth edition. And now the gap between fourth and fifth is lesser still.. The shelf life of people's games are lessening (obviously not all, as the 2E hold-outs can attest to hooah!). In total: OE/1E= 15 years, 2E= 11 years, 3E (including .5)= 8 years, 4E= 5 years?. Maybe that's reflective in sales?

It'd be interesting to be a fly on the wall over at WotC, to say the least.

'Shelf life'? I don't understand. Nothing about the release of a newer edition in any way makes older editions less playable, or less fun. It might make buying copies of the books a bit harder, but even that's not such a big deal with used book sales online. No one is required to switch to a new edition just because a company releases it.

[Five]

'Shelf life'? I don't understand. Nothing about the release of a newer edition in any way makes older editions less playable, or less fun. It might make buying copies of the books a bit harder, but even that's not such a big deal with used book sales online. No one is required to switch to a new edition just because a company releases it.

Of course nobody is required to switch to a new set of rules, that's complete and utter nonsense (I still game 2E when I can, and the fun factor hasn't dropped one iota), but when the supplements are bottlenecked then pinched off completely, then switching games becomes easier on certain styles of players. Yeah, some people play straight out of the box and hardly mod their game at all. I've played with some players that take an almost boardgame approach to Dungeons and Dragons. They use what's in front of them for a quick play because they're just not interested in sitting down and tinkering with rules and settings, what have you. Modules are/were their fun. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. Others I've played with hardly reference the rulebooks at all, and don't own a single published adventure or supplement. As to buying online and/or used, well, not everybody is in to that either.

I use the term "shelf life" to describe/define the lack of official support. And to some, that's the difference between playing and losing interest in the game to the point where books go into storage.

If your hobby becomes a hassle, then that hobby usually turns into another. And I say this figuring that those (ex)players in this city can't be the only ones out there that think like that...?

[Five]

Once you have an adventure in any edition, it's fairly easy to convert it to another edition or even a different rules system. It's worth buying the different modules of different rulesets just to see what you can convert to your campaign.

I agree. It's a warehouse of ideas when you take that approach. Ideas that you can backpocket in case of brainfarts. And not just adventures, those old gamebooks, of the Fighting Fantasy/Lone Wolf/AD&D Adventure variety, they can help prep new or potential players as well. Kiddish, especially at this age, but a nice simple intro in my opinion.

[ewancummins]

I use the term "shelf life" to describe/define the lack of official support. And to some, that's the difference between playing and losing interest in the game to the point where books go into storage.

Ah, I suppose there are guys who need a steady stream of new products to stay interested in the game. That's one reason why it makes sense to put out new editions a little more frequently. These guys will want to 'stay current' and will buy lots of expensive new rulebooks.

Then again, a new edition not compatible with the previous edition may also alienate some customers.

Nothing the game publisher does will ever please everyone. They have to make the decisions that will net them the largest sales, and build up the biggest customer base. To do that, they need market research. They have to find out what people want to buy, and then design that.

[Five]

Nothing the game publisher does will ever please everyone. They have to make the decisions that will net them the largest sales, and build up the biggest customer base. To do that, they need market research. They have to find out what people want to buy, and then design that.

If they don't have market research, then bloody hell. But yeah. I hear you. That, and maybe open up the vault on a quarter-century worth of material in the attempts at drawing in old fans, and/or to show others that they are in the business because they've done the legwork. Corporate flexing, whatever you want to call it. Besides, to the new gen, 1E/2E is a new edition. Who knows? Maybe it'd be spits and giggles to see how the old crew did things...

By the way, what does "Azalin" mean? The graphic-thingey, not the name. Chucklin' skull?