Pathfinder in the Mists

Discussing all things Ravenloft
Ryan Naylor
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Re: Pathfinder in the Mists

Post by Ryan Naylor »

We've been talking about him recently, so Lord Wilifred Godefroy is the star of this update.

Although he is rank 4 and Gryphon House is rank 5, he is considered to be semi-corporeal to the house. So he can touch things or not as he chooses.

You will notice that he is no longer an aristocrat. There are 2 reasons for this. The first is that NPC classes don't work well in Pathfinder. With the changes to the class skills system, there's no reason to choose aristocrat over say, rogue. Even in terms of flavour, there are enough archetypes out there, and the separation of character from stats, is enough that there's no reason to tie yourself to aristocrat.

Secondly, the CR rules for NPC classes don't work. A level 10 aristocrat is not a CR 8 threat. If you kit them out with CR 8 NPC gear, they're basically just a bag of blood that rains money when killed. Even the Bestiary recognises this, in the discussion of core and non-core classes in the Appendices. Following the suggestions there, I'd recommend you treat the CR of an NPC class as half their level (plus NPC gear for that CR) rather than level -2. That's a much more realistic representation of their threat level.

Anyway, Godefroy is no longer an aristocrat; he's a cad and a rake instead, which combine really nicely to create the sort of dirty tricks ambushing bully that Godefroy is.

Also note that Godefroy keeps his mental abilities, including his cad/rake abilities, when possessing someone (provided that the physical stats of the host body are high enough to meet any feat prerequisites - those he may lose are marked with an asterix).

And note that he can only use his improvised weapon attacks with something he can touch, meaning his oppoenents have to be ethereal or he has to be possessing someone.
Ryan Naylor
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Re: Pathfinder in the Mists

Post by Ryan Naylor »

Wilifred Godefroy (Mordent)

Timeline
510 BC Born in Mordent-on-sea in Prime Material Mordent.
c.550 BC Buys the House on Gryphon Hill.
567 BC Marries Estelle Weathermay. Old aged.
568 BC Lilia born.
578 BC Godefroy murders Estelle and Lilia. They haunt him.
579 BC Godefroy commits suicide and rises as a haunt. Azalin and Strahd escape into Prime Material Mordent; Mordent drawn into Ravenloft with Godefroy as lord. Still old aged. Becomes a more powerful ghost.
760 BC Present day.

Powers Checks
Caress (Violence: brutality to servants: 8%; c550 BC): Able to live in Gryphon Hill
Enticement (Betrayal: callousness, betrayals: 8%; c565 BC): Haunted feat.
Invitation (Violence and Betrayal: murdering family members: 32%; 578 BC): Walking stick becomes magical, wakes the house, curses his line, haunted.
Embrace (Betrayal and Blasphemy: covering up the murders: 16%; 578 BC): Cha bonus. Upon death, becomes haunt (3rd magnitude ghost).
Creature (Betrayal, Violence and Black Magic: actions during I10: 16%): Becomes darklord of Mordent. Moves from haunt to ghost – increases in magnitude to 4th.

Base stats
S 11 D 14 C 13 I 13 W 11 Ch 15 (high fantasy)
Racial: Con +2 (human)
Levelling: Str +1, Dex +1, Cha +1
Age: Old (physical -3, mental +2)
Template: Cha +8
Favoured class: skills
CR 15 (11 [levels] + 4 [template])

760 BC (Current day stats)
CR 15 XP 51,200
Male old Human Fourth Magnitude Ghost Fighter (Cad) 9/Rogue (Rake) 3
CE Medium Undead (augmented humanoid, incorporeal)
Init: +6 (Dex, feat) Senses: Darkvision 60 ft, Perception +24 Aura: Frightful presence 40’
Defense
AC 21 Touch 21 Flat 19 (+2 Dex, +9 deflection)
Hp 163 (10 + 8d10 + 3d8 + 96)
Fort +11 Ref +11 Will +8
Evasion
Incorporeal
Immune to turning and channelled energy
Offense
Spd Fly 30’ (perfect)
Melee Incorporeal touch +13 (Terror or 5d6 plus 1d4 Cha drain plus free action Intimidate +33 and free dirty trick if flatfooted; +2 attack to anyone who hit him in last turn)
Improvised weapon +10/+5/+0 (1d6-1; crit 19+ plus sneak +2d6 plus free dirty trick; opponents automatically flatfooted; can include dirty trick as one attack; +2 attack and damage to anyone who hit him in last turn; plus Improved Vital Strike, Devastating Strike +4)
Improvised weapon +10 (3d6+3; crit 19+ plus sneak +2d6 plus free dirty trick; opponents automatically flatfooted; can include dirty trick as one attack; +2 attack and damage to anyone who hit him in last turn)
Missile Musket +13 (1d12, crit x 4, range 40’, touch, plus Point Blank Shot and Deadly Aim -3/+6; +2 attack and damage to anyone who hit him in last turn)
Thrown +13/+8/+3
Space/Reach: 5’/5’
S — (9) D 12 (14) C — I 15 W 13 Ch 26 (28)
BAB +11/+6/+1 CMB +13 (+20 dirty trick, +16 disarm, steal) CMD 32 (37 dirty trick, 35 disarm/steal)

Feats
Catch Off-Guard, Combat Expertise, Deadly Aim*, Devastating Strike, Greater Dirty Trick, Improved Dirty Trick, Improved Initiative, Improved Vital Strike, Point Blank Shot, Quick Dirty Trick, Quick Draw, Flyby Attack*, Vital Strike
Skills
Acrobatics +8 (3), Appraise +7 (2), Bluff +20 (7), Diplomacy +20 (7), Fly +14 (1), Handle Animal +13 (1), Intimidate +23 (11), Knowledge (history) +9 (7), Knowledge (local) +11 (6), Knowledge (nobility) +10 (8), Perception +24 (12), Ride +8 (3), Sense Motive +16 (12), Sleight of Hand +8 (3), Stealth +16 (3), Use Magic Device +13 (1)
Languages
Mordentish*, Draconic, Darkonese

Treasure
(21,000 gp)
Cloak of resistance +3, headband of Charisma +2, belt of dexterity +2, musket +1 (ethereal only), bracers of armour +1 (ethereal only)

Special
Bravado's Blade
Razor-Sharp Chair Leg
Sneak Attack +2d6
Deadly Surprise
Payback +2
Surprise Attacks (opponents always flatfooted in surprise round)
Evasion
Draining touch (2 – combine with corrupting touch)
Corrupting touch (half, no save)
Frightful presence
Malevolence
Phantasmagoria
Turn immunity
Terror
Mastery: +8
Sinkhole of evil
Master of Gryphon Manor
Ryan Naylor
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Re: Pathfinder in the Mists

Post by Ryan Naylor »

But what's this I hear you say: Ryan, what do those ghost abilities mean? You've given him abilities that aren't with the ghost template in the Bestiary!

Never fear. Here is the full ghost template. And when I say full, I really mean it. Using this template, you can build almost any incorporeal undead and many corporeal ones. To prove it, I've made a table at the back showing you how it's done. I've also done a shadow template (same idea, different plane) to cover the few undead that don't fit into the ghost template.

Van Richten told us in VRGtG that all incorporeal undead are ghosts. And really, what's the difference between a ghost and a spectre anyway that can't be cleared up with ranks and salient abilities?

So, you can use the table as mini-templates to create differently powered spectres etc. Conversely, you can use the Bestiary stats as pre-made versions for when you don't want to muck around with templates.

However, when applying salient abilities and CR modifiers, be aware that the CR mod is just a guide line. Particularly if the base creature has a low CR, or is incorporeal and very combat oriented, you may need to adjust the CR away from the guide.

Also, apologies in advance for the formatting of tables.
Last edited by Ryan Naylor on Wed Apr 10, 2013 8:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
Ryan Naylor
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Re: Pathfinder in the Mists

Post by Ryan Naylor »

Ghosts

Ghosts are the souls of deceased creatures, trapped on the Ethereal Plane. According to the theory of famed monster hunter Rudolph van Richten, the interaction between human emotion and the Ethereal can serve as a barrier in the event of an emotionally charged death. The ethereal resonance created by the event binds the soul to the Ethereal Plane and prevents it from moving onward. Ghosts are tormented by the circumstances surrounding their death, for they prevent the spirit from resting peacefully.

Like all ethereal resonance, ethereal spirits are divided into five ranks. Rank one spirits are generally the product of sudden or unemotional deaths. Spirits with rank five ethereal resonance are the most powerful, resulting from deaths of extreme emotion and great consequence. Whenever a ghost is created, the ethereal resonance in the area immediately rises to match the rank of the ghost. The ethereal resonance of an area haunted by a ghost does not fade with time, for the ghost itself serves as enough emotional fuel to keep the resonance strong.

A ghost’s rank and salient abilities are fixed at the moment of its creation and cannot be changed, except in extremely unusual circumstances.

A ghost can pass through ethereal resonance of a rank lower than themselves if they wish, although they can also interact with it. Ethereal resonance of equal or greater resonance is completely solid and opaque to them.

The Ghost Template
Creating a Ghost
“Ghost” is an acquired template that can be added to any living creature that has a Charisma score of at least 4 (see below). A ghost retains all the base creature’s statistics and special abilities except as noted below.

Rank (Ethereal Resonance) Rank (Ghost) Min. Cha Cha mod. CR Salient abilities
1 1 4 +2 +1 1/4 HD
2 2 6 +4 +2 1/3 HD
3 3 8 +6 +3 1/2 HD
4 4 10 +8 +4 2/3 HD
5 5 12 +10 +5 2/3 HD + 1

Challenge Rating: Same as the base creature, modified as above.

Type: The creature’s type changes to undead. Do not recalculate the creature’s base attack bonus, saves, or skill points. It gains the incorporeal subtype (but see the corporeal salient weakness below).

Armour Class: Against material foes, an incorporeal ghost gains a deflection bonus equal to its Charisma modifier. It loses the base creature’s natural armour bonus, as well as all armour and shield bonuses not from force effects or ghost touch items. These bonuses still apply to foes on the Ethereal Plane, however.
A corporeal ghost gains a natural armour bonus equal to its Charisma modifier (minimum +1). It can wear armour as usual.

Hit Dice: Change all of the creature’s racial Hit Dice to d8s. All Hit Dice derived from class levels remain unchanged. Ghosts use their Charisma modifiers to determine bonus hit points (instead of Constitution).
Note that some deaths are so traumatic that ghosts gain extra racial Hit Dice. Base save bonuses granted by racial Hit Dice are Fort +1/3 HD, Ref +1/3 HD, and Will +1/2 HD + 2. The base attack bonus is equal to 3/4 its racial Hit Dice.

Defensive Abilities: A ghost retains all of the defensive abilities of the base creature save those that rely on a corporeal form to function (if incorporeal). Ghosts gain channel resistance equal to twice their rank, darkvision 60 ft., the incorporeal ability (but see corporeal below), and all of the immunities granted by its undead traits. Ghosts also gain the rejuvenation ability.

Rejuvenation (Su): In most cases, it’s difficult to destroy a ghost through simple combat: the “destroyed” spirit restores itself in 2d4 days. Even the most powerful spells are usually only temporary solutions. The only way to permanently destroy a ghost is to determine the reason for its existence and set right whatever prevents it from resting in peace. The exact means varies with each spirit and may require a good deal of research, and should be created specifically for each different ghost by the GM.

Speed: Incorporeal ghosts lose their previous speeds and gain a fly speed of equal to its previous base speed with perfect manoeuvrability, unless the base creature has a higher fly speed. Corporeal ghosts retain their previous speeds.

Melee and Ranged Attacks: An incorporeal ghost loses all of the base creature’s attacks against material foes (although not against ethereal foes). If it could wield weapons in life, it can wield ghost touch weapons as a ghost.

Corporeal ghosts retain all of the base creature’s attacks. If the base creature doesn’t already have them, they gain one of the following: a bite, 2 claw or 2 slam attacks. Some high ranked ghosts may gain a bite and 2 claw attacks.

Special Attacks: A ghost retains all the special attacks of the base creature, but any relying on physical contact do not function (if incorporeal and attacking material foes).

In addition, a ghost gains salient abilities as shown in the table above. A ghost with multiple attacks of the same kind (touch attacks, for example) can only use one salient ability per round.

The save DC against a ghost’s special attack is equal to 10 + 1/2 ghost’s HD + ghost’s Charisma modifier unless otherwise noted. Additional ghost abilities beyond these can be designed at the GM’s discretion.

Abilities: Cha + rank x 2 (as shown in table above); as an incorporeal undead creature, a ghost has no Constitution score and no Strength score against non-ethereal creatures.

Skills: Ghosts have a +8 racial bonus on Perception and Stealth skill checks. A ghost always treats Climb, Disguise, Fly, Intimidate, Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (religion), Perception, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, and Stealth as class skills. Otherwise, skills are the same as the base creature.
Ryan Naylor
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Re: Pathfinder in the Mists

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Salient Abilities

Animator (Su): Once per round, a ghost can possess an object of size Large or smaller, giving it life as an animated object. This animated object’s CR can be no higher than the ghost’s CR minus 2. If the target object is being held by a creature, the object can make a Will save using its bearer’s saving throw to resist possession. If the animated object is destroyed, the ghost reappears in its square and cannot possess another object for 1d4 rounds.

Apostate (Su): The ghost can cut off divine spellcasters from their source of power. All divine spellcasters within 60 ft must make a Will save or be cursed for 1 min. While affected by the curse, they must make a caster level check to cast any divine spell; the DC of concentration checks normally required increases by the ghost’s Cha modifier. Those targeted by the victim’s channel energy ability also gain a profane bonus to their saves equal to the ghost’s Cha modifier.

Aura of Cold (Su): The ghost is surrounded by an aura of deathly cold. Any living creature that enters the aura suffers 1d6 cold damage per ghost’s rank (Fortitude save for half). The aura has a radius of 5 ft per rank. As a full round action that provokes an attack of opportunity, the ghost can extinguish any nonmagical source of fire the size of a small campfire or smaller.
If this ability is selected a second time, those who fail their saves are slowed for a number of rounds equal to the ghost’s Charisma modifier. Alternately, they take 1d4 points of nonlethal damage and are fatigued until the nonlethal damage is healed.

Aura of Sobs (Su): The ghost has an invisible but audible aura of unnerving childlike whimpers, songs, and sobs. Any living creature that enters this area loses the benefit of all bardic performances affecting it and takes a penalty on all attack rolls, damage rolls, and Will saving throws equal to the ghost’s rank. The aura has a radius of 10 ft per rank. The ghost can suppress or reactivate its aura as a free action. This aura is a sonic, mind affecting effect.

Bestial Possession (Su): A ghost must have the malevolence ability to select this ability. Upon being possessed by a ghost, the target takes on a number of bestial features, most notably growing claws and vicious fangs, and flies into a savage rage. The victim gains two claws and a bite natural attack appropriate to its size (1d4 and 1d6 for Medium creatures), and gains a barbarian’s greater rage class ability. This rage lasts for as long as the victim is being possessed by the ghost. After the possession ends, the victim is fatigued for a period of time equal to double the duration of the possession. The victim also gains low-light vision and scent. The possessed creature loses all of these natural attacks and abilities immediately when the ghost leaves its body.

Bleed (Su): A ghost must have a touch attack to select this ability. Upon a successful touch attack, the ghost deals bleed damage according to its rank in addition to the effects of its normal touch attack. Rank one ghosts deal 1d4 bleed damage; ranks two and three, 1d6; ranks four and five, 1d8. Some ghosts with this ability may have different cosmetic effects, such as rotting or aging.
If this ability is selected a second time, the ghost can drain the energy of from those adjacent to it who are suffering from its bleed attack. This is a standard action. The victim takes 1d4 points of Constitution damage (Fort save for half). The ghost heals 5 hit points. Selecting this ability a further time increases the Constitution damage to 1d6.

Blindsight (Su): The ghost has blindsight, 60 ft. In some cases, the ghost may also have an enhanced ability to see through poor environmental conditions, such as snowstorms. Other unusual senses, such as scent, might be granted instead.

Bloodcurdling Howl (Su): The mournful howling of a ghost chills the living to the core. The creature can howl as a standard action. All living creatures within a 30-foot spread must make a successful Will save or become frightened for 2d4 rounds; those more than 30 feet away but within 300 feet must make a Will save or become shaken for 2d4 rounds. This is a sonic, necromantic, mind-affecting fear effect. A creature that successfully saves against the bloodcurdling howl cannot be affected by the same ghost’s howl for 24 hours. The ghost must have the frightful moan ability to choose this salient ability.

Corpsetheft (Su): Once per round a ghost can possess an adjacent corpse, merging with the remains and reanimating them as a skeleton or zombie. The skeleton or zombie animated by this ability may be no higher than the ghost’s CR minus 2. If the animated corpse is destroyed, the ghost reappears in the corpse’s square and cannot possess another body for 1d4 rounds. The animated body retains the ghost’s mental ability scores, alignment, and base attack bonus. The ghost loses any touch attacks, auras or attacks based on its appearance (such as corrupting gaze) it possesses while animating a corpse.
If this ability is selected a second time, the ghost retains its touch attacks while animating a corpse. It still loses any aura or appearance-based salient abilities.

Corrupting Gaze (Su): The ghost has a gaze attack with a range of 30 feet that causes 2d10 damage and 1d4 Charisma damage (Fortitude save negates Charisma damage but not physical damage). Variant ghosts may exist that deal different types of ability damage.

Corrupting Touch (Su): By passing part of its incorporeal body through a foe’s body as a standard action, the ghost inflicts a number of d6s equal to its CR in damage. This damage is not negative energy—it manifests in the form of physical wounds and aches from supernatural aging. Creatures immune to magical aging are immune to this damage, but otherwise the damage bypasses all forms of damage reduction. A Fortitude save halves the damage inflicted.
At the GM’s discretion, the corruptive touch of some ghosts may deal damage of a different energy type (such as pain). Alternately, the touch may deal half the normal damage without offering a save.

Create Spawn (Su): Any humanoids slain by a ghost become ghosts themselves in 1d4 rounds. Spawn so created are one rank less powerful than their creator and have the same salient abilities (to within the limits of their rank). Spawn are under the command of the ghost that created them and remain enslaved until its death, at which point they lose their spawn penalties and become full-fledged and free-willed. Ghosts must be at least rank two to select this ability.
Some ghosts may require longer periods or special conditions for their spawn to rise, such as spawn rising the first time fresh snow falls upon their corpses or graves.

Damage Reduction (Su): The ghost has DR 5/good or DR 5/magic and silver. If this ability is selected a second time, the DR is doubled. This salient ability increases the CR of incorporeal ghosts by 1.

Damaging Touch (Su): The ghost gains a touch attack that deals 1d4 ability damage from any one ability score it selects on a hit. A successful critical hit causes 1d4 points of ability damage and 1 point of ability drain (instead of double damage). On each such successful attack, the ghost heals 5 points of damage to itself.

Death’s Calling (Su): Once per day as a standard action, a ghost may place a curse on a target within 60 feet (Fortitude negates). If the ghost knows and speaks the target’s name, the target takes a –2 penalty on the save. If the victim fails the save, he becomes staggered for 1d6 rounds. For the next 24 hours (or until the ghost is slain), all critical hits against the victim automatically confirm. Finally, the victim automatically fails all Constitution checks to stabilize while dying. This is a mind-affecting curse effect. The save DC is Charisma-based.

Deathsong (Su): Once per day, as a move equivalent action, the ghost may sing of the world beyond the veil of life. Characters within 30 ft must make a Fortitude save or suffer double damage from physical or energy sources. The ghost may sing for a number of rounds equal to twice its rank. This is a sonic, necromantic effect. A bard can use her countersong class feature to counter the deathsong. Once a character makes their save, they are immune to a deathsong sung by that ghost for 24 hours.

Disease (Su): A ghost with this ability can inflict disease. The ghost must have the Malevolence ability. Those it possesses automatically contract the disease, which cannot be cured until the ghost is cast out of the victim’s body.

Draining Touch (Su): The ghost gains a touch attack that drains 1d4 points from any one ability score it selects on a hit. On each such successful attack, the ghost heals 5 points of damage to itself. Rank one ghosts cannot select this salient ability.

Earth Glide (Su): The ghost has the earth glide ability, and a burrow speed equal to half its speed. Only corporeal ghosts can select this ability.

Ectoplasmic Web (Su): The ghost draws, secretes or otherwise produces a horrifying web of ectoplasm. This has the effect of a web special attack. If the ghost has an aura (such as maddening babble or aura of sobs), interacting with the web (e.g. examining the drawing or becoming ensnared) exposes the character to the effects of the ghost’s aura.

Elemental Curse (Su): On a touch attack, the ghost’s victim must make a Will save or be engulfed by sickly flames. While these eerie flames deal no additional damage, the affected creature glows as per faerie fire and becomes sickened. While under the effects of the witchflame, the victim gains vulnerability to one type of energy (typically fire, although cold is also common) and takes half again as much damage (+50%) from attacks of that energy type. The curse lasts for 2 minutes per rank. This ability stacks with other touch attacks. . The supernatural flames can only be extinguished before this duration expires by a break enchantment, miracle, remove curse, or wish spell—the effective caster level of the elemental curse is equal to the ghost’s HD.

Energy Drain (Su): The ghost gains a touch attack that deals 1d8 negative energy damage and energy drain 1. The ghost gains 5 temporary hit points for every level drained. This ability can be taken multiple times. Each time increases the number of negative levels bestowed by 1. The negative energy touch cannot be used to heal undead.

Energy Resistance (Su): The ghost gains immunity or resistance 20 to one energy type, or energy resistance 10 to 2.

Entrancing Appearance (Su): The ghost gains a gaze attack with a range of 30 ft. Targets who fail a Will save are fascinated (or cower, in some cases) while the ghost remains within view. Victims can attempt new saves once every number of rounds equal to the ghost’s rank. Once they have saved, they are unable to be affected by the ghost’s appearance for 24 hours.

Fast Healing (Su): The ghost gains fast healing 5. Only rank three or higher ghosts can take this ability.

Fleshdrink (Su): If a ghost hits a single creature with both claw attacks, the ghost deals 1d6 points of Constitution damage and making the victim sickened for 1d4 rounds. A successful Fortitude save negates the Constitution damage and reduces the sickened condition duration to 1 round. The save DC is Charisma-based. The ghost must be corporeal to select this ability.

Fly (Su): The ghost gains a fly speed equal to its speed and perfect manoeuvrability. Only corporeal ghosts can select this ability.

Forgotten (Su): A ghost with this ability can take 20 on its Stealth check to hide in plain sight.

Frightful Moan (Su): The ghost can emit a frightful moan as a standard action. All living creatures within a 30-foot spread must succeed on a Will save or become frightened for 1d4 rounds (rank 1), panicked for 2d4 rounds (rank 2 or 3) or cower for 1d3 rounds (rank 4 or 5). In some cases, a ghost may have this power at a lower rank, but the form of the ability is fixed at the ghost’s creation. This is a sonic mind-affecting fear effect. A creature that successfully saves against the moan cannot be affected by the same ghost’s moan for 24 hours.
Alternate from of this ability that are not sonic attacks also exist. Some ghosts have this power as a touch attack, in which case the fear effects can stack with another touch salient ability.

Frightful Presence (Su): The ghost gains the frightful presence ability to a range of 10 ft per rank.

Geas (Su): The ghost died with some work undone or desire unfulfilled. In its desire to see its efforts completed, once per day, a ghost can lay a compulsive curse upon the living, forcing them to either take up its work or face a terrible end. A ghost can lay this curse by making a touch attack, which forces the target to make a Will save or be stunned for 1 round. During this round, the target receives a flood of images suggesting a course of action—though such might remain vague or require research into the ghost’s history to discern an exact meaning. The target has a number of days to fulfil the ghost’s intentions equal to 14 days minus the ghost’s Charisma modifier, to a minimum of 7 days. If the target does not fulfil the course of action suggested by the vision within this set period, he takes 1d4 points of Constitution drain per day. This effect can be overcome via the spell remove curse, requiring a caster level check with a DC equal to this effect’s initial DC.

Geist (Su): A geist is the weakest form of ghost. Geists are unable to manifest on the Material Plane. Although this grants them natural invisibility (which cannot be dispelled or otherwise removed, even voluntarily), it also prevents them from directly interacting with material creatures except through abilities such as telekinesis, mind games and phantasmagoria. Those without these abilities are cursed to be powerless observers for eternity. Geists are unable to make touch or ranged touch attacks, and unable to select any other abilities that directly affect the material world. In general, only mind affecting abilities should be selected. Only rank 1 incorporeal ghosts can be geists.

Gestalt (Su): The ghost is able to absorb the life force of those it kills, including any other ghosts it encounters, trapping their spirits within itself and growing strong off their energy. As a full round action, whenever the ghost kills a creature, it can gain a growth point. It gains a bonus equal to its growth point total on attack rolls, CMB rolls, saving throws, caster level checks, and skill checks. Its maximum hit points increase by 5 for each growth point, and its caster level for spell-like abilities increases by 1. For every 4 growth points, it increases in size by one category and gains an extra attack. Ghosts with this ability tend to split into two when it has amassed a number of growth points equal to double its Hit Dice.

Ghost Blade (Su): When the ghost wields a weapon of a particular sort (slashing, for example), it can imbue the weapon with magical abilities equal to half its Charisma modifier (maximum equal to its rank). The abilities bestowed are fixed at the time of the ghost’s creation. The weapon need not be given a minimum +1 bonus before applying special effects. For example, a corporeal ghost might apply keen and frost; an incorporeal ghost might apply +1 and ghost touch.

Grave Trappings (Su): The ghost died with a strong attachment to a specific item or set of objects. A ghost with this ability may choose a number of items it died with equal to half its Charisma modifier multiplied by its rank to carry with it into death. The ghost continues to be able to use and benefit from these spectral duplicates just as though they were the real things. Weapons and armour are treated as having the ghost touch special ability, while other items act as being incorporeal themselves and can be manipulated by the ghost. Regardless of the type of object, all selected items are treated as being part of the ghost’s form and cannot be disarmed or removed from the ghost (even by the ghost). Should a ghost be destroyed, its equipment reappears with it upon rejuvenating.

Greater Mind Games (Su): The ghost gains one magical ability selected from the following list of 4th to 6th level spells: aura of doom, black tentacles, blight, cloak of dreams, command undead, crushing despair, curse of magic negation, dream, envious urge, epidemic, fear, fleshworm infestation, frozen note, insect plague, mass cacophonous call, nightmare, solid fog, phantasmal killer, terrible remorse, touch of slime, trap the soul. The ghost may use this ability a number of times per day equal to its rank. The caster level is equal to the ghost’s CR. The DCs are 10 + spell level + the ghost’s Charisma modifier. A ghost must be at least rank 3 to select this ability.

Icy Touch (Su): With a successful touch attack, the ghost’s victim must make a Fortitude save or be staggered for 1 round. If the ghost has another touch attack, the effects stack.

Improved Salient Ability (Ex): For one salient ability with effects dependent on a ghost’s Hit Dice or CR (e.g. corrupting touch or the caster level of a spell-like ability), the ghost is treated as 1 Hit Dice or CR higher.

Increased Abilities (Ex): The ghost has been empowered by the transition to undeath. The ghost can improve any of their ability scores by a total of 16 points. The ghost’s Charisma cannot be improved by more than twice its rank. If this salient ability is chosen a second time, the ghost gets an additional 8 points, but can’t spend more than its rank on Charisma.

Increased Size (Ex): The ghost’s speed increases by 10 ft and it gains the benefits of a permanent enlarge person spell.

Increased Speed (Ex): The ghost’s speed increases by 20 ft. If this ability is selected a second time, the ghost’s speed increases another 30 ft.

Invisibility (Su): The ghost can turn invisible (caster level equal to its Hit Dice) as a free action on its turn. As with the invisibility spell, the ghost appears once it makes an attack. Thus, the ghost may constantly appear and disappear during a fight.
If this ability is selected a second time, the ghost’s invisibility becomes natural invisibility: it remains invisible even when attacking, and its invisibility cannot be dispelled by spells such as invisibility purge.

Laughter of Madness (Su): The ghost can laugh as a standard action. All living creatures within a 10-foot spread per rank centred on the ghost must make a Will save or be subject to confusion. Ghosts of rank three or higher cause their victims to be moonstruck instead. The ghost can laugh for a number of rounds equal to its rank. The caster level is equal to the ghost’s CR.

Lure (Su): The ghost can lure a single target within 100 ft per rank if they fail a Will save. If the target fails, they are irresistibly drawn to a particular location (typically either the ghost or its remains), or as close as they can manage within their natural capabilities. An entranced target attacks anyone who tries to restrain it.

Maddening Babble (Su): The ghost constantly mutters and whines to itself, creating a hypnotic effect. All sane creatures within 60 feet of the ghost must succeed on a Will save or be fascinated for 2d4 rounds. While a target is fascinated, the ghost can approach without breaking the effect, but an attack by the ghost breaks the effect. This is a sonic, mind-affecting compulsion effect. Creatures that successfully save cannot be affected by the same ghost’s babble for 24 hours. The save DC is Charisma-based.
Anyone targeting a ghost that has this ability with thought detection, mind control, or telepathic ability makes direct contact with its tortured mind and takes 1d4 points of Wisdom damage.

Malevolence (Su): The ghost’s jealousy of the living is particularly potent. Once per round, the ghost can merge its body with a creature on the Material Plane. This ability is similar to a magic jar spell (caster level 10th or the ghost’s Hit Dice, whichever is higher), except that it does not require a receptacle. To use this ability, the ghost must be adjacent to the target. The target can resist the attack with a successful Will save. A creature that successfully saves is immune to that same ghost’s malevolence for 24 hours.

Mind Games (Su): The ghost gains a number of magical abilities equal to half its Charisma modifier multiplied by its rank (minimum 1). It may select these abilities from the following list of 0- to 2nd level spells: animate rope, chill metal, control undead, dancing lights, entangle, faerie fire, fog cloud, ghost sound, heat metal, hideous laughter, invisibility, minor image (major image if rank three or higher), open/close, pyrotechnics, scare, sleep, spiritual weapon, soften earth and stone, summon swarm, warp wood, or whispering wind. A ghost may use each of these abilities a number of times per day equal to its rank plus 1. The caster level is equal to the ghost’s CR. The DCs are 10 + spell level + the ghost’s Charisma modifier.

Misfortune (Su): A creature struck by the ghost must make a Will save or become permanently cursed with misfortune. The victim of this curse takes a –4 penalty on all attack rolls, saving throws, and skill checks, and any critical threat against the victim automatically confirms. If the ghost hits a creature already suffering from this curse, the victim must make a Will save or be staggered for 1 round. This is a curse effect.

Nightmare Delusions (Su): The ghost died suddenly or unexpectedly. Not even realizing that it’s dead, this spirit goes about the routines of its daily life, ignoring the living in a state of undead denial. Should a ghost with this ability pass through the square of a living being, that creature must make a Will save or fall into a fitful sleep full of nightmares that aren’t its own for 1d4 minutes. For a number of following nights equal to the ghost’s Charisma modifier, the victim must make an additional Will save or be affected as per the spell nightmare.

Phantasmagoria (Su): A number of times per day equal to half the ghost’s Charisma modifier multiplied by its rank, the ghost can create an elaborate illusion. This illusion functions similarly to the spell mirage arcana in combination with multiple major images, allowing the ghost to recreate any scene, setting, or characters it wishes. The ghost can even incorporate itself into the effect, appearing as it wishes within the illusion as if it were under the effects of alter self. The entire illusion can be disbelieved with a Will save. The illusion is treated as a 6th-level spell created by a caster with a level equal to the ghost’s CR. If any part of the illusion is dispelled, the entire illusion fades.

Presence (Su): Any creature entering the same square as the ghost is affected by one of the ghost’s touch attacks. This ability cannot be used with corrupting touch. If this ability is selected a second time, those striking the ghost with a melee attack are also affected, even if the attack cannot harm the ghost due to its incorporeal nature. If the touch attack allows a save, the victim of this ability may also make a save.

Profanity (Su): The ghost is tainted with evil. It gains a +1 profane bonus to AC for every 3 Hit Dice it possesses.

Radiant Aura (Su): The ghost has a gaze attack with a range of 30 feet that causes creatures who fail a Fortitude save to be blinded for 1d4 rounds. The ghost also sheds bright light as a daylight spell (caster level equal to the ghost’s Hit Dice).

Ranged Touch (Su): One of the ghost’s touch attacks can be used as ranged touch attack with a range equal to 30 ft. This ability can be taken multiple times; it can be applied to a different touch attack, or increase the range by a further 30 ft.

Shape Flesh (Su): By spending 1 minute in contact with a helpless creature, a ghost can reshape the target’s face, causing flesh to cover vital features. The target may attempt a Fortitude save to resist. Changes are permanent, but can be reversed with heal, restoration, or regeneration, or by surgically opening the sealed flesh with a DC 15 Heal check that takes 1d3 rounds and deals 1d4 points of damage even if the check is not successful. A ghost can use this ability on one of four different features per use: ears (target becomes deaf), eyes (target becomes blind), mouth (target cannot speak or eat), or nose (target cannot smell). Multiple uses can have increasingly serious effects (such as sealing the mouth and nose, which causes suffocation). The save DC is Charisma-based.

Sickening Attack (Su): One of the ghost’s touch attacks can also cause its victim to become sickened if the fail a Will save. The effect lasts for 2 minutes per rank.

Snowstorm (Su): The ghost is surrounded by an aura of lashing winds, icy cold and driving snow, even in conditions that wouldn’t normally allow for it. This aura has a radius equal to the ghost’s Charisma modifier x its rank. Within this area, the snowfall and wind gusts cause a –4 penalty on Perception checks and ranged attacks. The wind itself blows in a clockwise rotation around the ghost, and functions as severe wind. The ghost itself is affected by a constant blur spell (CL equal to ghost’s CR) and is unaffected by snowstorms or blizzards of any kind. Any effect that causes these winds to drop below severe (such as control weather or control winds) cancels the snowstorm effect entirely.

Spell Resistance (Su): The ghost has spell resistance equal to 11 + its CR. Incorporeal undead with this ability gain CR +1.

Steal Breath (Su): A creature hit by this ghost must make a Will save or become fatigued for 1 hour. A fatigued creature that is hit is instead exhausted for 1 hour, and an exhausted creature falls asleep for 1 hour. The sleeper can only be roused by destroying the ghost or by using dispel magic, remove curse, or similar effects. The save DC is Charisma-based.

Steal Voice (Su:) Any creature hit by this ghost’s touch must make a Will save or lose its ability to speak for 1 hour. During that time, the creature cannot talk, cast spells with verbal components, use auditory bardic performances, or use any other ability that requires speech. The ghost can perfectly mimic the stolen voice at any time, even after its victim’s voice has returned, and while using that voice can speak any languages the victim knew. Those familiar with an individual’s voice can make a Sense Motive check opposed by the ghost’s Bluff check to realize a mimicked voice is inauthentic. The save DC is Charisma-based.

Summon Mount (Su): As a standard action, the ghost can summon a war-trained heavy horse with the fiendish creature simple template. This horse remains until it is slain or the ghost dismisses it. He can only have one such horse in his service at a time. If the ghost is incorporeal, so is the mount.

Telekinesis (Su): The ghost can use telekinesis as a standard action once every 1d4 rounds with caster level equal to the ghost’s HD.

Terror (Su): If a target is protected against fear by a dispellable effect (such as heroes’ feast or mind blank), the ghost’s touch attempts to dispel one such effect with greater dispel magic. The caster level is equal to the ghost’s CR.

Touch of Death (Su): If the ghost makes a critical hit with its corrupting touch, it can cause the victim’s heart to give out under the strain of its supernatural aging or freeze their heart solid. In addition to the normal effects of a critical hit, the victim must make a Fortitude save or immediately drop to -1 hit points and begin dying. The victim can’t stabilize by themselves, although healing magic or another character using the Heal skill can stabilize them normally. This is a necromantic, death effect. To select this ability, the ghost must have the corrupting touch ability.

Trample (Ex): The ghost gains a trample ability, dealing damage equal to a hoof attack of a creature its size, plus double its rank. If the ghost is incorporeal, this is a supernatural effect.

Unnatural Aura (Su): Animals, whether wild or domesticated, can sense the unnatural presence of a ghost at a distance of 30 feet. They do not willingly approach nearer than that and panic if forced to do so unless a master succeeds at a Handle Animal, Ride, or wild empathy check. The DC for this check is 10 + 5 x the ghost’s rank. A panicked animal remains so as long as it is within 30 feet of the ghost.

Vestige (Ex): The ghost retains one of the base creature’s special abilities that it wouldn’t normally be able to use (for example, the ghost of a lycanthrope might retain its Curse of Lycanthropy ability, despite this ability relying on physical contact to function). The save DC of this ability increases by its rank +1.

Vicious (Ex): The ghost’s natural attacks deal damage as though the ghost were one size category larger. Only corporeal ghosts may take this ability.

Wail (Su): To choose this ability, a ghost must have the Frightful Moan salient ability. Once per minute, a ghost may wail as a full-round action. The wail lasts until the beginning of her next turn. All creatures within 40 feet of the ghost when she begins her wail, as well as all creatures that end their turn within that radius, must make a Fortitude save. (This save is only required once per wail.) Creatures under the effects of a fear effect take a –4 penalty on this save. Those that fail take damage as if affected by wail of the banshee. The caster level is equal to the ghost’s CR. If a wailing ghost is damaged during a wail, she must make a Will save (DC 15 + damage taken) to maintain the wail; otherwise it ends. This is a sonic death effect. The save DC is Charisma-based. Other high level spell effects (symbol of insanity, symbol of stunning, and so on) may be used instead.
This ability can be taken up to 3 times. Further effects include sickening or panicking creatures that make their save for 1d6 rounds, or supernaturally empowering the wail so it can penetrate the effect of any spell that creates silence of lower level than the ghost’s rank.

Warp the Earth (Su): The ground in a 30-foot radius around the ghost ripples and shudders unnaturally. This transforms the area into difficult terrain. The ghost can move through this area with no penalty. Consecrated ground cannot be affected by this ability, nor can any area warded by a magic circle against chaos or a magic circle against evil.



Salient Weaknesses

Salient weaknesses reduce the power of a ghost. They tend to be individual quirks and limitations, although some are more common than others. Each salient weakness allows a ghost one salient ability above those allowed by its rank and Hit Dice.

Corporeal (Su): As noted above, corporeal ghost gains a natural armour bonus equal to its Charisma modifier (minimum +1). It can wear armour as usual. Corporeal ghosts retain all of the base creature’s attacks. If the base creature doesn’t already have them, they gain one of the following: a bite, 2 claw or 2 slam attacks. Obviously, they don’t have the incorporeal subtype.

No natural armour bonus (Ex): A corporeal ghost with this weakness does not gain its Charisma modifier as a natural armour bonus.

Reduced channel resistance (Ex): The ghost has channel resistance equal to a ghost of 1 lower rank. This weakness can be taken multiple times, each time reducing the channel resistance by one rank to a minimum of +0.

Vulnerability (Ex): The ghost is vulnerable to either a single substance or condition that is relatively common, or subject to two conditions that are uncommon.
Examples of common conditions include:
Silver: A ghost with this vulnerability takes an extra 2d6 points of damage when struck by a magical silver weapon, and nonmagical silver weapons are able to harm it. If the ghost has Malevolence or a similar ability, if its host is struck by a silver weapon, its host takes the additional damage and can make another save to resist possession. Silver is a common vulnerability because adventuring parties often carry silver weapons.
Earth: The ghost cannot abide contact with earth and stone. It suffers 3d6 points of damage per round if immersed in earth (for example, if passing through it incorporeally). Stone weapons do an extra 1d6 damage and nonmagical stone weapons can strike the ghost.

Examples of uncommon restrictions include:
Site bound: The ghost is unable to move more than 120 ft from the ghost’s place of death or remains; some ghosts are tied to a particular object, often a tree. In this case, the ghost is able to touch the tree and its fruit or branches, but cannot move away from it and is destroyed if the tree is felled.
Slow: speed reduced by 10 ft
Sunlight powerlessness: cannot attack and is staggered in natural sunlight; unaffected by a daylight spell
Vulnerable to a relatively uncommon material (repelled by the smoke from cherry wood) or spell (such as being destroyed if subject to raise dead or similar—Will negates). Sunlight is considered an uncommon vulnerability because it is rarely within the power of a typical adventuring party to wield in combat.
In general, the GM should assess how likely it would be for PCs to have the required item or be able to generate the required condition during combat without luck or special planning.
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Re: Pathfinder in the Mists

Post by Ryan Naylor »

Sample Ghosts
Name Base Creature Rank Salient Abilities Salient Weaknesses CR

Akikage Human rogue 4 + 2 racial Hit Dice 3 Corrupting touch, invisibility, touch of death 7

Allip Human warrior 3 2 Damaging touch (Wis), maddening babble Reduced channel resistance 3

Animator Human expert 6 2 Animator, invisibility (2) Reduced channel resistance 5

Arayashka Human warrior 4 3 Aura of cold, blindsight, create spawn, draining touch (Dex), energy resistance (immune to cold) Reduced channel resistance (2), vulnerability (double damage from fire) 5

Attic Whisperer Human (child) aristocrat 1 + 5 racial Hit Dice 1 Aura of sobs, steal breath, steal voice Corporeal, reduced channel resistance 4

Banshee Elf aristocrat 19; base speed 40 ft. 4 Blindsight, corrupting touch, frightful moan, improved salient ability (corrupting touch, terror, wail), increased abilities, increased speed, terror, wail (3) 13

Bhut Human commoner 9 2 Corpsetheft (2), create spawn, greater mind games (epidemic) Vulnerable (earth) 6

Bhuta Human warrior 11 4 Bleed (3), corrupting touch (2), improved abilities (Dex), malevolence (animals), mind games, greater mind games, scent Reduced channel resistance (2), vulnerable (cold iron) 7

Bowlyn Human expert 1/ warrior 3 2 Sickening attack (telekinesis), telekinesis Vulnerable (can’t leave the sea, sunlight powerlessness) 4

Bussengeist Human expert 4 1 Frightful moan (free action, shaken only), geist, phantasmagoria Vulnerability (repelled by laughter) 3

Caller In Darkness Human sorcerer 10 (giant template) 2 Corrupting touch, gestalt, increased speed, unnatural aura Vulnerability (repelled by bright light) 12

Crypt Chanter Human expert 7 2 Energy drain, ranged touch (2), mind games (hypnotism) Reduced channel resistance (2) 5

Dullahan Human warrior 8 3 Death’s curse, fast healing, frightful presence, ghost blade (keen, frost) improved abilities, spell resistance, summon mount Corporeal, no natural armour bonus, reduced channel resistance 7

Dybbuk Human aristocrat 18 4 Animator, corrupting touch, damage reduction (2), greater mind games (4), increased abilities (2), increased speed, malevolence, mind games, spell resistance Reduced channel resistance (2) 12

Effigy Elf witch 15 2 Corrupting touch (fire), energy drain, energy resistance (immune to fire), increased move, malevolence, spell resistance Vulnerability (double damage from cold) 14

Ephemeral swarm Bat swarm 1 Damaging touch (Str) 3

Forsaken One Human disgraced cleric 6 2 Apostate, energy drain, increased speed Vulnerability (double damage from channelling) 5

Ghost brute (dire wolf) Dire wolf + 3 racial Hit Dice 1 Bloodcurdling howl, corrupting touch (bite), frightful moan Reduced channel resistance 5

Guecubu Human warrior 9 4 Blindsight (tremorsense), damage reduction, earth glide, energy resistance, fast healing, increased abilities, mind games, misfortune, warp the earth Corporeal, reduced channel resistance (2) 6

Kindergeist Human (child) aristocrat 1 1 Lure, geist Reduced channel resistance 1

Odem Human aristocrat 6 3 Draining touch (Wis), malevolence, unnatural aura 6

Poltergeist Human expert 3 1 Frightful moan, geist, telekinesis Reduced channel resistance, vulnerability (site bound, reduced move) 2

Radiant Spirit Human paladin 8 4 Frightful moan, greater mind games (blindness, sunbeam), radiant aura 11

Remnant (Airy/Aquatic/Earthen/Fiery) Human expert 4 1 Draining touch (Dex), mind games (feather fall/ water breathing/water breathing (earth)/fire resistance 5) Vulnerability (manifest only in their element, site bound) 3

Spectral Lyricist Human bard 6 2 Draining touch (Cha), mind games (disguise self, at will) 7

Spectre Human aristocrat 8 3 Create spawn, energy drain (2), increased speed (2), unnatural aura Reduced channel resistance, vulnerability (sunlight, resurrection magic) 7

Totenmaske Human warrior 8 3 Draining touch (Cha), energy resistance (resist cold 20), fleshdrink, increased abilities (2), increased speed, shape flesh, vicious Corporeal, reduced channel resistance (3) 7

Vilkacis Human expert 9 + 1 racial HD (werewolf) 2 Bestial possession, energy resistance (immune to cold), increased speed, malevolence, vestige (curse of lycanthropy) Reduced channel resistance, vulnerability (silver) 7

War Wraith Human warrior 4 3 Draining touch (Con), grave goods (weapons and armour), greater mind games (insanity) Reduced channel resistance 5

Witchfire (Rushlight) Green hag (10 HD) 4 Corrupting touch (fire), energy curse (fire), energy resistance (immune to fire), increased abilities, increased speed, presence (2), ranged touch (2), sickening attack Reduced channel resistance (4) 9

Yuki-onna Human commoner 11 3 Corrupting touch (2), energy resistance (immune to cold), entrancing appearance, greater mind games (3), icy touch, increased abilities, snowstorm Reduced channel resistance (3), Vulnerability (fire, site bound - snow) 5
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Re: Pathfinder in the Mists

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Haunts

Haunts are objects of ethereal resonance, as are ghosts. However, whereas ghosts are at least partially aware and able to react to their surroundings with a degree of versatility, haunts are much more limited.
Some are nothing more than phantoms, ethereal imprints of particular moments of great emotion. They are mindless images, endlessly replaying the event that led to their creation, without variation. Most are unable to cross back from the Other Side and are only encountered by ethereal travellers, but the most powerful respond to the presence of the living by manifesting on the Material Plane.
Other haunts are the spirits of the dead whose minds have been so shattered by death they become trapped in endless cycles of the same action or set of responses. While these responses can be extremely complex, they are still much more limited that full ghosts, or even geists, who retain their full abilities of self-determination.


Haunt creation rules are here: http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/mastery/haunts.html
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Re: Pathfinder in the Mists

Post by Nemesio »

F-ing Awesome dude! Incorporeal undead have seriously needed an overhaul since 3rd edition. You've done a fine job.

All this new stuff is heading directly to my Pathfinder in the Mists archive. :D

After seeing what you've done with ghosts.....I've got to see what you've done with Shinpi!
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Re: Pathfinder in the Mists

Post by Zilfer »

I'm just going to second would love to see all this organized in PDF form. :D
There's always something to lose.

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Re: Pathfinder in the Mists

Post by mbevier »

I'll throw in as well. Great work so far and would love to see all this collected into a single document.

I would love to see the mists creeping into my pathfinder games soon!

Thanks again for all your work, keep it up!
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Re: Pathfinder in the Mists

Post by Ryan Naylor »

The plan was always to release the final versions as pdfs. These are to get everyone's creative juices flowing, and provide feedback on anything I may not have thought out clearly enough.

So hold tight - pdfs are coming. We've got a lot to get through between now and then though.
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Re: Pathfinder in the Mists

Post by The Giamarga »

Baron Zamedi wrote:As for worthy ideas for the topic, I was thinking maybe you could do some generic statblocks, something along the lines of paizo's NPC Guide, but tailored specially for Ravenloft. I'll see if I can come up with some myself to add to the thread (if you don't mind) but Im not very good with stats.
IMO you can use many of the NPCGuide stats in Ravenloft.. They are available at d20pfsrd herebtw.

For more NPCs check out the following threads:
Ravenloft NPCs 3E (and/or Pathfinder) stats
Generic Ravenloft NPCs (Pathfinder)
Last edited by The Giamarga on Thu Apr 11, 2013 4:52 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Pathfinder in the Mists

Post by The Giamarga »

Ryan great work! Will take a while to digest all of it though.

I see you mention the Haunted feat and haunted (what is this?) in his DP checks. I'm looking forward to your feats conversions and am very interested in which feats make the cut.

I'm coming around to seeing your view about NPC classes though it pains me being a great fan of those in 3.5. youre spot on it really hinges on the change to class skills. Which also destroyed the rogues niche protection making it a subpar class in PF btw. (Do you know the product Rogue Glory? It fixes he basic rogue somewhat, giving him a few new abilities and proficiencies in swordcane, bladed boot and switchblade. The book also has polished up the old Stealth rules from the playtest and offers a few archetypes..)
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Re: Pathfinder in the Mists

Post by Ryan Naylor »

No, I'll have to look that up, thanks.

The Haunted feat was first in RL3e: you are watched over by a geist, who helps and protects you. In this case, by Gryphon Manor (either the spiritual energy, or the spirit of the House, depending on which school you ascribe to about how aware Gryphon Manor is). Since his death, that's become his Master of the House ability.

The other haunted is "by the spirits of his wife and daughter": that's where that part of his curse begins.
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Re: Pathfinder in the Mists

Post by Gonzoron of the FoS »

I'm not getting it. NPC classes are outclassed ( ;) ) by PC classes. That's just the way it is, it always has been. That's kind of the point of them. I don't see why the PF class skill changes made that any more true. Care to elaborate?
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