Café de Nuit

For what it's worth, I did my best to correlate BC years to DR (FR) and CY (Oerth). Based on what I could come up with, "Die, Vecna, Die!" (in which he escapes Ravenloft) takes place in or around 742 BC.

Doesn't Vecna enter Ravenloft in 750 BC ?

If you go through the madness of creating a correlating timeline

Yes indeed, I love continuity . But again I feel like a correlating timeline is just in regards of the Barovian Calendar in this case no? Which I think is adopted by every domain of the Core. I personally chose 760-770 BC because I really need Vecna out of the picture, and I also need that 5 year or so gap after the Grim Harvest where Azalin has fell silent in his struggle to piece himself together.

SilentRave wrote:

For what it's worth, I did my best to correlate BC years to DR (FR) and CY (Oerth). Based on what I could come up with, "Die, Vecna, Die!" (in which he escapes Ravenloft) takes place in or around 742 BC.

Doesn't Vecna enter Ravenloft in 750 BC ?

It's been a bit since I looked into it, but according to my notes, "Vecna Lives!" (when the Circle of Eight are killed, and Vecna ends up in Ravenloft) is largely considered to take place in 581 CY. I have the Barovian equivalent as 732 BC. Looking over things more closely, it appears that I took the Greyhawk-Ravenloft correspondence via Azalin, who leaves Oerth in 391 CY and is transported to 542 BC Barovia. This would create a 151 year difference between the two calendars. For every Greyhawk-related date, I simply used this gap to derive the Barovian equivalent.

"Die, Vecna, Die!," the module in which Vecna appears in Ravenloft, doesn't seem to contain any chronological information, though I admittedly looked very quickly. My notes say it occurs in 591 CY, which corresponds to my 742 BC, but this would also anticipate the 750 BC date.

On closer look, the 750 BC date seems to come specifically from the "Domains of Dread" companion, which doesn't surprise me. If I'm not mistaken, I've encountered other instances on Mistipedia in which other information in that book is off or otherwise mistaken. So I guess I just ignored anything from that book that didn't fit what I was doing.

So I guess it's up to you which version of the chronology is more important. For me, it's drastically more important that the Ravenloft chronology align with Azalin's entrance than with whatever's going on with Vecna. I'd sooner make the Burning Peaks stuff (which is not appearing in my campaign) earlier than screw up Azalin's chronology.

Like I said, creating a correlating timeline is madness.

— onmyoji

SilentRave wrote:Yes indeed, I love continuity . But again I feel like a correlating timeline is just in regards of the Barovian Calendar in this case no? Which I think is adopted by every domain of the Core.

Well, kind of. So far, Van Richten has also mentioned the "King's Calendar" of Darkon, so there's that. I've heard of other calendar systems in the Core, but haven't gotten into them yet. (Either way, it's just counting back or forward from Barovian.)

But regarding outside the Core, I've got my Barovian calendar timeline pretty well synched with DR (Forgotten Realms), CY (Greyhawk), and AC (Krynn). Prime Material Barovia is also part of it, but since that's up to me, I just counted backwards from the in-Core Barovian. Easy enough. But still a maddening exercise overall!

— onmyoji

onmyoji wrote:...according to my notes, "Vecna Lives!" (when the Circle of Eight are killed, and Vecna ends up in Ravenloft) is largely considered to take place in 581 CY. I have the Barovian equivalent as 732 BC. Looking over things more closely, it appears that I took the Greyhawk-Ravenloft correspondence via Azalin, who leaves Oerth in 391 CY and is transported to 542 BC Barovia. This would create a 151 year difference between the two calendars. For every Greyhawk-related date, I simply used this gap to derive the Barovian equivalent.

I suppose though, if one really wanted to fix this, one could keep Vecna's 750 date of entry into Barovia and simply alter the date it takes place in Oerth, since it's apparently not quite set in stone there. I haven't looked into how this would affect the timeline on Oerth, but if one were to set "Vecna Lives!" in 599 CY instead, that would give you a 750 BC entry as well as maintaining consistency with Azalin's timeline.

(If anyone knows Greyhawk better and setting "Vecna Lives!" to 599 CY is a big no-no, let me know!)

— onmyoji

EDIT: Confirmed that the Circle of Eight die in 581 CY, so if you're doing anything else in Greyhawk or want to otherwise maintain consistency, changing it to 599 doesn't seem like a good option.

Though I guess, if you REALLY WANTED TO, you could note the fact that over every 190 Oerth years, the Barovian calendar advances 208 years. I don't particularly look forward to doing all that math, but if you REALLY REALLY want to be accurate, then have at it, lol.

And the more I look at my notes, the more I feel like I might have to do that math. #maddening

I have the Barovian equivalent as 732 BC. Looking over things more closely, it appears that I took the Greyhawk-Ravenloft correspondence via Azalin, who leaves Oerth in 391 CY and is transported to 542 BC Barovia.

It's strange for me, because tbh I never thought correlating dates outside of Ravenloft to be factual? There's no basis as of canon to do so, Soth being a prime example of that and also many instances that The Mists mingle and twist timelines.

SilentRave wrote:It's strange for me, because tbh I never thought correlating dates outside of Ravenloft to be factual? There's no basis as of canon to do so, Soth being a prime example of that and also many instances that The Mists mingle and twist timelines.

Honestly, I don't think they say either way, but since my campaign takes up a lot of the history of the Core, I have to find a way to make that stuff matter more, and I never cared for the "wibbly wobbly timey-wimey" explanation, so that's my preference.

Regarding Soth, my understanding is that his quick jaunt in Ravenloft and reappearance in Krynn right after he left was due to pressure from his creators that actually didn't have any role in establishing canon at that point. Further, someone else showed on this forum a few weeks ago that there was some kind of time-travel nonsense in Dragonlance that effectively made it so Soth never actually went to Ravenloft at all. All that considered, I'd say the lack of calendrical equivalents is more or less moot in that case.

If I were ever to deal with Soth, based on what I know, I would rule that he did go to Ravenloft (I mean, he did. There's all kinds of official materials stating so.), and circumstances in Krynn then altered the timeline, and as a result, he never found his way into Ravenloft. Problem is the Dark Powers won't exactly let go of him; I'd imagine that a time-shift on Krynn would have little effect on the Demiplane of Dread. So I would rule that he's actually both in Ravenloft and not. If he found a way back to Krynn though, the two Soths wouldn't be able to coexist, and would presumably combine in some way. YMMV.

— onmyoji

onmyoji wrote:If I were ever to deal with Soth, based on what I know, I would rule that he did go to Ravenloft (I mean, he did. There's all kinds of official materials stating so.), and circumstances in Krynn then altered the timeline, and as a result, he never found his way into Ravenloft. Problem is the Dark Powers won't exactly let go of him; I'd imagine that a time-shift on Krynn would have little effect on the Demiplane of Dread. So I would rule that he's actually both in Ravenloft and not. If he found a way back to Krynn though, the two Soths wouldn't be able to coexist, and would presumably combine in some way. YMMV.

Rather than combine them, you could do something similar to Second Chances from Star Trek: The Next Generation (which Gonzoron mentioned in a different context within the past month).

To really mess with the people of Krynn, the Dark Powers could drop Soth off at some point after the altered timeline version of him is destroyed.

Wolfglide wrote:Rather than combine them, you could do something similar to Second Chances from Star Trek: The Next Generation (which Gonzoron mentioned in a different context within the past month).

Agreed. Though, I do already have a particular way of dealing with such paradoxes planned. Because of something that happened with a past campaign, there will be a couple of points where this might happen to the players. I take it in a more "Legacy of Kain"-style mindset, where "history abhors a paradox," and the two items in question largely vie for control until one wins, and history "reshuffles" itself to accommodate as best as possible.

If my players are smart, this is how I suspect they will screw Inajira out of Strahd's soul.

— onmyoji

SilentRave wrote:Doesn't Vecna enter Ravenloft in 750 BC ?

So I had a chance to go back over my notes, and I realized that even though Vecna isn't really a major thing in my campaign, it's easier to alter things on Azalin's side to fit and have things correspond to Vecna's dates. So here's the updated equivalencies I have now:

— 1019 DR / 400 BC / 231 CY: Firan Zal'Honan born.
— 1117 DR / 498 BC / 329 CY: Firan Zal'Honan becomes a lich.
— 1161 DR / 542 BC / 373 CY (canonically 391 CY): Firan Zal'Honan/Azalin enters Ravenloft.
— 1297 DR / 678 BC / 509 CY: Mordenkainen born. (He's in Curse of Strahd.)
— 1369 DR / 750 BC / 581 CY: "Vecna Lives!" takes place. Vecna enters Ravenloft.
— 1382 DR / 760 BC / 591 CY: Vecna escapes Ravenloft.

If I recall correctly, the only source that places Azalin's 391 CY date of entry is in "King of the Dead," which is not necessarily canonical, though I do plan on making it canon in my campaign. If it is the only such source, the two chapters in which that date appears skim lightly over decades worth of events. As such, decreasing Azalin's time in Oerth by 18 years isn't exactly consequential to the story at all. Alternately, making him arrive in Barovia at any date other than 542 BC creates a mass of complications.

Also, I was wrong about the Vecna modules earlier. Vecna enters Ravenloft in "Vecna Lives!" (581 CY) NOT in "Die, Vecna, Die!" (591 CY). I confused the latter for the former. The CY dates for those modules above are both canonical—Vecna spends only a decade in the Mists—however, YMMV for DR and BC equivalents.

I think I've got the best working version of this possible thus far. Thanks for prompting me to fine-tune it more thoroughly.

Once again... madness.

— onmyoji

P.S. — Fun fact, in case anyone didn't know. Canonically, Azalin becomes a lich exactly 2,000 years after Vecna does.