Some Vecna confusion... caused by the JWM Timeline??

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Re: Some Vecna confusion... caused by the JWM Timeline??

Post by onmyoji »

Resonant Curse wrote:On the quicker explanation side you could always say it took 18 years for the Dark Powers to fully entrap Vecna and he was essentially "off screen" but not in the Demiplane of Dread until the power struggle finished.
True, and that's at least better than just ascribing it to time-foolery. But the ease and convenience of that still would be too easy for me as a DM. More complex explanations tend to be more believable. Or at least, such is my experience.

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Re: Some Vecna confusion... caused by the JWM Timeline??

Post by Rock of the Fraternity »

Maybe Vecna was lost in the Mists, trying to find his way out. Strong and intelligent aa he is, he could find Mistways and keep moving, but eventually exhaustion wore him down and he took a wrong turn, ending up in the Burning Peaks and the Dark Powers' trap.
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Re: Some Vecna confusion... caused by the JWM Timeline??

Post by TwiceBorn Reborn »

onmyoji wrote: As far as I know, you're not mistaken. That's also one of the major reasons I don't see the 732 Ravenloft entry date as in any way feasible. One could argue that neither Strahd nor Azalin have ever had any perfect ways of understanding what happens in other domains without actively seeking out that information. And one could argue that the Burning Peaks cluster was probably quite far from Darkon and Barovia. Those are at least decently convincing explanations.

But I'm still going to use the Vecna date as the keystone and eliminate 18 lich-years from Azalin's Oerth time. Does that create any Greyhawk inconsistencies, TwiceBorn Reborn? So far, nothing I've read in Greyhawk ever even mentions Azalin. Even online timelines never mention him. Would making him attack Innspa 18 years earlier really cause any Oerthian issue whatsoever? I would be really really really interested in hearing more about this.
Having reread the entries for Vecna and Kas in Domains of Dread, I can imagine them desperately lost in the Mists in 581 CY / 732 BC through 750 BC, catching fleeting glimpses of one another as each hunts the other down for what seems like an eternity through the fog - and perhaps pocket domains? - neither getting the upper hand or a chance to destroy the other. After tormenting the two like that for 18 years (perhaps a relatively short time span for a vampire and a demigod lich, but maddening all the same I'm sure when you're just going round and round in circles impotently with your most hated enemy so close, yet so far!), their respective rages building up, the Mists kick things up another notch by finally granting them adjacent domains. That 18-year hunt through limbo probably would have escaped the notice of Azalin, Strahd, and their agents.

If you're looking for a very cool pocket domain (with a connection to Azalin/Darkon and Greyhawk), check this out: http://www.canonfire.com/cf/modules.php ... le&sid=925

Sorry for the tangent...

As far as your question is concerned, no, Azalin is never mentioned in any official Greyhawk sources. Having just skimmed through the key sections of the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer, The Marklands, and Ivid the Undying -- the most relevant and detailed sources covering the histories of Innspa and Knurl - making Azalin attack Innspa 18 years earlier does not appear to create any inconsistencies with the timeline of Greyhawk/Oerth. Seems like Innspa was in a prime location to be caught in the middle of decades long border skirmishing between Nyrond and the Great Kingdom of Aerdy, the latter aided by its northern vassals in North Province and the Bone March (Knurl is part of the Bone March). Nyrond declared its independence from the Great Kingdom of Aerdy in 356 CY (think of Aerdy as a crumbling Roman Empire, or something along those lines).

Even if you have no intention of plunging deeper into the lore of Greyhawk, do yourself a favour and download Ivid the Undying: https://www.acaeum.com/library/ividundying.pdf.

It was an official TSR product that was never published (save for excerpts in Dragon mag), and which TSR/WotC eventually released as a free download. Some fans formatted it to match the other books in the post-Greyhawk Wars supplement line, which, as far as I'm concerned, is some of the very best stuff ever written for D&D bar none. Although his work is controversial among Greyhawk fans - Carl Sargent's writing and the historical and political depth he infused into his work is awesome.

EDIT: Innspa was actually a city in what became the Prelacy of Almor around 437 CY, a buffer state between Nyrond and Aerdy, allied to Nyrond (i.e., another realm that broke away from Aerdy)... but that changes nothing where your purposes/needs are concerned.

EDIT 2: I'm curious as to why Azalin - who by 391 CY had "renounced his allegiance to the Malachite Throne" (i.e., Aerdy) - decided to march upon Innspa, which was more than 180 miles away from Knurl... perhaps because he feared that the devout of a clerical fief (dominated by followers of Hieroneous, LG god of chivalry, honour, justice, valour and daring) might try to take him down if he did not take them out first? That indeed seems to have been the case, given that extremely powerful 'mercenaries' came seeking revenge on Azalin in Knurl and were strong enough to send him fleeing for his unlife.
Last edited by TwiceBorn Reborn on Sat May 22, 2021 9:23 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Some Vecna confusion... caused by the JWM Timeline??

Post by onmyoji »

Thanks for the reply, TwiceBorn Reborn! So long as Azalin attacking Innspa 18 years earlier doesn't dramatically alter anything, then I'm just gonna proudly stick to using Vecna's dates as the chronological keystone rather than Azalin's. That would mean (according to my chronology) that 542 BC = 373 CY (= 1161 DR), rather than 391 CY.

If the only thing that it affects is a handout in From the Shadows (which realistically, I'd have to recreate anyway), then that's no skin off my back.

Even if I didn't seem to convince much of anyone here that CY = BC - 788 (rather than 770), it definitely was worth it to hear from someone much more invested in Greyhawk lore than I that it wasn't a foolhardy course of action.

And I've really gotta bone up on some of my Greyhawk lore anyway as I find myself also prepping to run the infamous and rather daunting TAGDQ (with modern adjustments and also adjustments for the story I want to tell as well). Hoping to round that out with Dead Gods, and then Vecna Lives—which will ultimately bring this team to Ravenloft with the demigod lich.

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Re: Some Vecna confusion... caused by the JWM Timeline??

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onmyoji wrote:And I've really gotta bone up on some of my Greyhawk lore anyway as I find myself also prepping to run the infamous and rather daunting TAGDQ (with modern adjustments and also adjustments for the story I want to tell as well). Hoping to round that out with Dead Gods, and then Vecna Lives—which will ultimately bring this team to Ravenloft with the demigod lich.
Wow, you definetly are aiming high! Good luck!

If your players make it through all those mega-modules (and after giving _Lolth_ a beat down) I can guess how the mists captured Vecna. He was to busy running away from the adventurers to notice the mists. :gabrielle:

The hardest ones to adjust would be the A series, Slave Lords modules. Being originally 1e tournament modules they dont link together very well at all, and suffer from extreme railroading - Ugh, the 'capture by the Ghoul' incident still leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Even the attempt to join them together for 2e was pretty poor.
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Re: Some Vecna confusion... caused by the JWM Timeline??

Post by onmyoji »

Whoops I misspoke! I meant "TGDQ." Not doing Against the Slavers. I'm definitely concatenating some things since ToEE is gigantamous. I'm definitely out to tell a story rather than to run dungeons ad nauseum. I'm also trying to run these in PF2, rather than in 1E, so it's easy enough to moderate levels accordingly. Obviously even if they go through all that, relatively speaking, Vecna's gonna be just as much of a threat to them as he should be in the original module.

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Re: Some Vecna confusion... caused by the JWM Timeline??

Post by kourkenko »

Well, with a group of friends, we are trying to update the Burning Peaks cluster with our favored Greyhawk vilains (Vecna, Kass but also Iuz, Kuyss and some others). If you want the Vecna's timeline we created using official products and several Gygax interviews, i can post it here. It contain all his official history (it is already 31 pages long), with the biggest secrets he discovered (they are canon and it is freaky ^^).

It doesn't contain a detailled timeline because the one we found stopped at "Vecna live !"
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Re: Some Vecna confusion... caused by the JWM Timeline??

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kourkenko wrote:Well, with a group of friends, we are trying to update the Burning Peaks cluster with our favored Greyhawk vilains (Vecna, Kass but also Iuz, Kuyss and some others). If you want the Vecna's timeline we created using official products and several Gygax interviews, i can post it here. It contain all his official history (it is already 31 pages long), with the biggest secrets he discovered (they are canon and it is freaky ^^).

It doesn't contain a detailled timeline because the one we found stopped at "Vecna live !"
Sure, if you're willing to share it! I'd be more than happy to take a look!

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Re: Some Vecna confusion... caused by the JWM Timeline??

Post by kourkenko »

onmyoji wrote:Sure, if you're willing to share it! I'd be more than happy to take a look!

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Here it is:

https://mega.nz/file/CzYHQS6L#Tv-gaLznV ... 46A_9xbj-U

And it is not over, we are working on several other things, as his spells, favored magical items and several other allies (for example Acereak or Iggwilv with a backstory to bring them in the fight), undead graft and so on. The story is complete, not the rest and this is just for Vecna, i'm working on Kas right now.
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Re: Some Vecna confusion... caused by the JWM Timeline??

Post by onmyoji »

kourkenko wrote:Here it is:

https://mega.nz/file/CzYHQS6L#Tv-gaLznV ... 46A_9xbj-U

And it is not over, we are working on several other things, as his spells, favored magical items and several other allies (for example Acereak or Iggwilv with a backstory to bring them in the fight), undead graft and so on. The story is complete, not the rest and this is just for Vecna, i'm working on Kas right now.
Nice! Thanks so much! I'd be interested in Kas stuff too. I myself am primarily GMing in Pathfinder 2, so I'm primarily interested in narrative stuff. Anything mechanics-related won't matter as much to me, but it would still very much be worth looking though. Acererak will be important too, but so far he's just behind the scenes. Since we have already gone through ToH once already (I was playing, not DMing), I don't think my table is really interested in anything Acererak-related at the moment, haha.

Thanks again!

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