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Speaking of conjuration / summoning spells, calling undead or making creatures from darkness, mists and shadows to something is perhaps another avenue. Make shadowstuff that acts like a construct while it is an outsider [mists] and has varying CR depending on the spell level.

alhoon wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 8:15 am Speaking of conjuration / summoning spells, calling undead or making creatures from darkness, mists and shadows to something is perhaps another avenue. Make shadowstuff that acts like a construct while it is an outsider [mists] and has varying CR depending on the spell level.

Like the illusion spells Shadow Monsters and Demishadow Monsters?

alhoon wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 8:15 am Speaking of conjuration / summoning spells, calling undead or making creatures from darkness, mists and shadows to something is perhaps another avenue. Make shadowstuff that acts like a construct while it is an outsider [mists] and has varying CR depending on the spell level.

I believe that this sort of thing is what 5e's Tasha's Cauldron of Everything did with its recent conjuration spells, so as to avoid PCs having to take a while to think of which CR creature of which type to summon for. Hence the spells Conjure Celestial and Conjure Fey and Conjure Woodland Beings and so on. So a version of that for Ravenloft might be more helpful to fixing the Conjuration school?

To both of you: Mostly, but closer to what Tasha did. However with more options to make more unique monsters.

alhoon wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 1:54 am To both of you: Mostly, but closer to what Tasha did. However with more options to make more unique monsters.

This reminds me - the spells from the Illusion (shadow) subschool are absolutely deadly. If you use a shadow spell and fail a will save, your spell becomes an undead shadow that is hostile to you with HD "equal to the effective spell level". What this means is not exactly clear, but I suspect it means that the HD of the shadow is equal to the level of the spell slot you used to cast the spell.

There isn't a lot of temptation to use spells from the shadow subschool. I suspect that most PCs will avoid it entirely.

tomokaicho wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 3:26 am

alhoon wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 1:54 am To both of you: Mostly, but closer to what Tasha did. However with more options to make more unique monsters.

This reminds me - the spells from the Illusion (shadow) subschool are absolutely deadly. If you use a shadow spell and fail a will save, your spell becomes an undead shadow that is hostile to you with HD "equal to the effective spell level". What this means is not exactly clear, but I suspect it means that the HD of the shadow is equal to the level of the spell slot you used to cast the spell.

There isn't a lot of temptation to use spells from the shadow subschool. I suspect that most PCs will avoid it entirely.

Most PCs. But it is thematically close to the mad mage.
It's not like summoned fiends in fantasy lore didn't have a tendency to break off and do their thing. Elementals do the same BTW. Without a save.

In 5e, I would rule similar to the Conjure Elemental spell, BTW. If you lose concentration THEN the creature becomes a shadow.

alhoon wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 2:42 pm

tomokaicho wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 3:26 am

alhoon wrote: Thu Mar 23, 2023 1:54 am To both of you: Mostly, but closer to what Tasha did. However with more options to make more unique monsters.

This reminds me - the spells from the Illusion (shadow) subschool are absolutely deadly. If you use a shadow spell and fail a will save, your spell becomes an undead shadow that is hostile to you with HD "equal to the effective spell level". What this means is not exactly clear, but I suspect it means that the HD of the shadow is equal to the level of the spell slot you used to cast the spell.

There isn't a lot of temptation to use spells from the shadow subschool. I suspect that most PCs will avoid it entirely.

Most PCs. But it is thematically close to the mad mage.
It's not like summoned fiends in fantasy lore didn't have a tendency to break off and do their thing. Elementals do the same BTW. Without a save.

In 5e, I would rule similar to the Conjure Elemental spell, BTW. If you lose concentration THEN the creature becomes a shadow.

Rogue fiends and elementals is already a part of the basic D&D game. In terms of spells from the shadow subschool, like a shadow evocation illusory fireball, after the illusory fireball is done doing it's thing, if the caster fails a will saving throw, the spell turns into an undead shadow. Pretty weird. These are the rules in the Ravenloft 3.5e Players Handbook. If you've got the ability to rebuke undead, then you can choose to fail your saving throw and get a free undead shadow minion.

Honestly, it just wasn't well thought out, like a number of other things.

I could use some of that.