Café de Nuit

I thought the Developper's silence was due to last time they came. When the RL PHB came out and that some of us were less than polite with them about the new rules. I can understand why they'd tend to stay low after that one.

We still see some RL PHB bashing every now and then.

Mangrum wrote:As a note, we didn't end the Book of S___ line because of that edict; it merely confirmed where our mindset was already headed at the time.

I'm glad you added that last bit John, I was beginning to wonder.

Charney, Dark Duo have appeared as being on the boards since the release of the RLPHB, I just don't think they have posted.

Mangrum wrote:If Arthaus wanted to, they could easily put web enhancements on the Sword & Sorcery website, as just about all of the other S&SS product lines have done.

Arthaus has the technical and legal ability; the folks in charge of Ravenloft just don't have the interest. I think that's also apparent in the developers' utter silence in the online fan community.

Well, I was hedging because I knew they wouldn't go up on the S&S site.

The folks in charge of Ravenloft were never particularly friendly to the concept of releasing material for free. This was to the extent that, as part of our initial meet-and-greet process, they instructed us to stop producing any kind of netbooks other than adventures. (Since Arthaus wouldn't be publishing adventures for Ravenloft, any we put out wouldn't be seen as competition.)

Interesting fact: I never knew this.

Ryan Naylor wrote:Interesting fact: I never knew this.

It may just have slipped your mind, since it wasn't a big deal at our end. But you don't remember our having to run CotN:Demons by Arthaus, with the eventual decision it was OK because it was a collection of adventures?

That explains why CotN: Demons had one (or perhaps many) of its delays. I am wondering now why you waited until you were closing hte site to release it? Or had you only recently received the go ahead at that time?

On our fan-side fan point of view, with these comments we can appreciate the troubles you guys went through, and let it be known that we appreciate the efforts.

Joël

Wiccy of the Fraternity wrote:That explains why CotN: Demons had one (or perhaps many) of its delays. I am wondering now why you waited until you were closing hte site to release it? Or had you only recently received the go ahead at that time?

There were a number of causes for the CotN:D delay, of which the Arthaus edict was probably negligable, truth be told. Other factors that entered into it:

* 3E was released, so all the rules needed to be completely revamped.
* We were now suddenly busy with the published line.
* Some of the authors whose proposals had been accepted never turned in their work, leaving the book with less than 13 entries.

These forces all acted in conjunction -- the edition jump also pretty much killed any momentum that had been built up in our Death Undaunted and MotRD: The Great War projects as well. That said, I would judge the above factors to be listed in order of ascending impact.

Mangrum wrote:There were a number of causes for the CotN:D delay, of which the Arthaus edict was probably negligable, truth be told.

Yeah, I'd agree with John's comments... In the end, the reason it came out with the closure of the site was simply that the decision to shut down meant that we had a deadline to get CotN:D finished! Personally, I wanted to get it out (even if it was sub-13 demons) just for a sense of closure .

Stu

Wiccy of the Fraternity wrote:Web Enhancements (and erratas form what I gather) are the responsibility of the authors to produce rather than the publishers. So we may or may not see one for Ravenloft products after Secrets of the Dread Realms. It all depends on the time availiable to the authors.

I don't know about web enhancements, but erratas are the developers and editors responsibility.

John and Stu (good to see you again) thanks to both of you for explainging that

Frandal, I wasn't aware that erratas were the resposibility of the editors, etc. I was thinking they would come under the same thing as web enhancements.

Mangrum wrote:Arthaus has the technical and legal ability; the folks in charge of Ravenloft just don't have the interest. I think that's also apparent in the developers' utter silence in the online fan community.

I'm going to play Devil's advocate here, but your making it seem like the developers are not only uninterested in the setting, but simply don't care about the setting, the community or anything that they should be, but rather they see Ravenloft as a stepping stone in their careers and treat it as such.

But even someone as cynical as me can't see that to be true. It makes little buisness sense above anything else. Surely having someone who cares about the setting and having someone who knows what the community wants would be in the company's interest. ArtHaus wouldn't have people run the setting if they thought that they would run it into the ground, would they?

Or should I just consider that you're all looking at me sympathetically and saying inwardly, "Bless!" as I'm as naive as a schoolgirl at a frat party.

Drinnik Shoehorn wrote:I'm going to play Devil's advocate here, but your making it seem like the developers are not only uninterested in the setting, but simply don't care about the setting, the community or anything that they should be, but rather they see Ravenloft as a stepping stone in their careers and treat it as such.

But even someone as cynical as me can't see that to be true. It makes little buisness sense above anything else. Surely having someone who cares about the setting and having someone who knows what the community wants would be in the company's interest. ArtHaus wouldn't have people run the setting if they thought that they would run it into the ground, would they?

Interesting fact; Jackie and Nicky's last developing job was for a line that ultimately tanked. They were the developers for Changeling: the Dreaming that, even before the rest of the World of Darkness was ended, had years before been effectively killed, with its own string of horrendously written books.

Another interesting fact: At least one former developer for White Wolf claims that the reason he was let loose from the company had less to do with the quality of his work and more to do with not going out to play golf and drink beer with the rest of the guys (or something along those lines).

Now, I'm not saying Jackie and Nicky aren't interested in the setting: I think they are. I just think they're incompetent.

I also think that White Wolf, Arthaus, whatever, chooses its employees based on friendship and association lines, to a degree.

Because, seriously, every time I look at the Ravenloft line and the creative differences that seem to have cropped up I shake my head and wonder why the hell some of the Kargatane weren't made developers over the current pair at the helm or why the two of them are allowed to continue on as developers.

Trickstergod wrote: Interesting fact; Jackie and Nicky's last developing job was for a line that ultimately tanked. They were the developers for Changeling: the Dreaming that, even before the rest of the World of Darkness was ended, had years before been effectively killed, with its own string of horrendously written books.

Or is that just bad writers or poor interest in the line? The developers don't do the actual writing for the books (generally), they guide the line.

Another interesting fact: At least one former developer for White Wolf claims that the reason he was let loose from the company had less to do with the quality of his work and more to do with not going out to play golf and drink beer with the rest of the guys (or something along those lines).

One guy? What was his name? Is there proof?

Now, I'm not saying Jackie and Nicky aren't interested in the setting: I think they are. I just think they're incompetent.

I also think that White Wolf, Arthaus, whatever, chooses its employees based on friendship and association lines, to a degree.

Can you give a list of reasons for these conclusions, or are you deciding things without real proof?

Because, seriously, every time I look at the Ravenloft line and the creative differences that seem to have cropped up I shake my head and wonder why the hell some of the Kargatane weren't made developers over the current pair at the helm or why the two of them are allowed to continue on as developers.

They continue as developers because the line is doing well, its that simple. As to why the Kargatane were not made developers... they were guys who were not members of Arthaus who managed a fan site. The fact that they were given a job writing for the line in the first place is impressive. They did an awesome job on everything they worked on, and I wish they hadn't left, but they did. I have a shelf full of the books with Jackie and Cassandra listed as developers, and only two are fair to poor.

Are the developers being blamed because the Kargatane left, or because the entire line is garbage? I don't think the second part is true, so you're taking half known facts and taking shots at a convenient target.

Good job!

Well, maybe there's some confusion on the role of developers vs. the role of authors in the creation of role-playing resource material. As I understand it, authors are chosen/contracted to do the actual writing--the "little picture" if you will, on focused areas of larger publications (such as the Barovia section or the Kartakass section of Gazetteer I). Their responsibility is to create the actual works, to flesh out the concepts discussed in meetings and on storyboards, to find the voice of whatever narrator is telling us--the fans--the story.

The developers' job seems mainly to ensure that all the "little pictures" make a coherent "big picture" as well as to see that the authors don't let their creativity carry them into a 300-page section of a 100-page book (making cuts for space limitations and culling the best of the best from each author's work). It would also seem that developers are responsible for the business side of things from the publishing company's perspective, informing authors (who I get the sense are quite often freelancers, not actual employees of the company) of what the company's "vision" for the product line is and how they're expected to perform within those guidelines.

This are just some conclusions I've drawn, based on comments from Ryan Naylor, John Mangrum, Steve Miller, and Jim Lowder. If any of them (or anyone else who actually knows) wants to expand on or correct what I've said, please be my guest.

AdamGarou wrote:The developers' job seems mainly to ensure that all the "little pictures" make a coherent "big picture" as well as to see that the authors don't let their creativity carry them into a 300-page section of a 100-page book (making cuts for space limitations and culling the best of the best from each author's work).

If you use this statement, then Jackie and Cassandra are making a poor job of their work. Thier "little picture" (The Barovia section of Gaz 1, meant to be the definitive source of information on Barovia to date) was made null thanks to the next published book CoDorkness, which introduced poorly thought out concepts and badly written ideas, especially the Cold War section.

Some people may think J&C may be making a good job, but believe me, I wouldn't shed a tear if they where replaced. Hell, they've got Steve Miller writing for them now, give him the flaming job, no one writing on the line has more experience than him. The idea of J&C being his superior is laughable, it's like a college grad being made supervisor of a 20 verteran at a job.