Café de Nuit

Rotipher wrote: Just apply the same template as any other Enhanced Familiar could get. In a dread familiar's case, that would have to be either fiendish, anarchic or axiomatic, as celestial is obviously not an option (unless the feat that shifts a dread familiar's alignment to Neutral has already been chosen).

I was asking because don't all attempts to conjure an Outsider (such as an Elemental) automatically give it the Mists subtype? Which is what transforms normal Elementals into their Dread Elemental counterparts; Earth-Grave, Water-Blood, Fire-Pyre, Air-Mist. If this is the case for powerful conjuration magic, why should summoning an Elemental Familiar be any different? I didn't think it should have any other effect than to make the Familiar look different and have different powers/stats. It just seemed more 'in-theme' to have an Elemental Dread Familiar be corrupted by the Mists into either a Dread Elemental or a Corrupted Elemental (a template designed by John W Mangrum).

Not every elemental in Ravenloft is of the Dread type; you can have a fire elemental that has the Mists subtype, but is otherwise indistinguishable from a fire elemental from some other campaign setting. It's the potency of the Dread elementals' special abilities that I'm concerned with: adding them might make a familiar stronger than a single feat ought to allow.

Of course, you could let a PC declare that, cosmetically, their elemental familiar looks like a Dread elemental, even if it's got the statistics of a standard elemental. That's a matter of personal choice, just like a PC's cat familiar is whatever color the player desires. But before you give the powers of a Dread elemental to a familiar, think carefully about how much its special abilities are going to enhance that PC's capabilities, and how they compare to an ordinary elemental familiar's or to other, existing familiar-enhancing feats.

I don't even know what benefits normal Elemental Familiars give, and I don't think there's much difference statwise between a small Elemental and a small Dread Elemental, the Dread's are just slightly different (like the way Blood Elementals can't touch pure water without taking damage). I was just asking because I thought it would be appropriate, considering both Dread Familiars and Dread Elementals are malevolent and dangerous beyond the norm.

Hell_Born wrote:I don't even know what benefits normal Elemental Familiars give, and I don't think there's much difference statwise between a small Elemental and a small Dread Elemental, the Dread's are just slightly different (like the way Blood Elementals can't touch pure water without taking damage). I was just asking because I thought it would be appropriate, considering both Dread Familiars and Dread Elementals are malevolent and dangerous beyond the norm.

Dread Elementals gain more dangerous abilities than normal elementals. Mist elementals can turn a target evil, Pyre elementals can animate corpses at touch, Grave elementals suck their targets underground and blood elementals drain (damage) Con. Much more powerful than regular elementals.

Dread familiars are different from the elementals, because they are a manifestation of the Users will. They are no more powerful than a regular familiar, just far more crafty and free-willed. Dread elementals aren't easy to control and constantly fight against a summoner. They shouldn't be considered on par with normal elementals for the purpose of Improved Familiar.

Hell_Born wrote:I was asking if Dread ELEMENTALS cause Fear/Horror checks, not Dread Familiars. Because a mobile mass of grave dirt, column of fire+bones or pool of bloody water is definately not natural.

Depends on the situation and the person.
But anything (ANYTHING!) can cause a fear/horror check in the right situation.

Hell_Born wrote:By the way, can someone tell me what effect the various 'advanced' Familiars you gain access to by the Improved Familiar feat have on their master? I know what effects normal/Dread Familiars have (+3 to Listen checks for bats ect), but I can't find what benefits they Improved Familiars give.

Where is the feat from?

The core D&D 3.5 Dungeon Master's Guide. Essentially it alters the Familiars a mage can have, determined by their level:

*3rd level mages can add the Fiendish or Celestial template to the basic familiars.

*5th level mages can have Shocker Lizards, Stirges or Small Elementals for Familiars.

*7th level mages can have a Formorian Worker, Imp, Quasit, Pseudodragon, Ice Mephit or Homunculous for a Familiar.

But I can't find the bonus abilities given to the mage by these Improved Familiars, which is why I was asking.

I thought an Elemental Dread Familiar should be a Dread Elemental because it seemed to fit somehow, though I can't quite explain how.

David of the FoS wrote:

Hell_Born wrote:By the way, can someone tell me what effect the various 'advanced' Familiars you gain access to by the Improved Familiar feat have on their master? I know what effects normal/Dread Familiars have (+3 to Listen checks for bats ect), but I can't find what benefits they Improved Familiars give.

Where is the feat from?

The DMG 3.5. It gives you a more powerful familiar than you would normally have, such as an imp, quasit, small elemental, etc. You don't get the type of direct bonuses you get with a normal familiar (such as +3 to a skill) because you have a familiar that can join you in combat or has spell-like abilities.

Hell_Born wrote:The core D&D 3.5 Dungeon Master's Guide. Essentially it alters the Familiars a mage can have, determined by their level:

*3rd level mages can add the Fiendish or Celestial template to the basic familiars.

*5th level mages can have Shocker Lizards, Stirges or Small Elementals for Familiars.

*7th level mages can have a Formorian Worker, Imp, Quasit, Pseudodragon, Ice Mephit or Homunculous for a Familiar.

But I can't find the bonus abilities given to the mage by these Improved Familiars, which is why I was asking.

I thought an Elemental Dread Familiar should be a Dread Elemental because it seemed to fit somehow, though I can't quite explain how.

There are no direct bonuses. You get a powerful familiar. There are no other bonuses.

Okay, thanks for clearing that up. By the way, could anyone give me a sample of... well.. 'tricks' a Dread Familiar might come up with, and list the Int score it needs to do so?

Hell_Born wrote:Okay, thanks for clearing that up. By the way, could anyone give me a sample of... well.. 'tricks' a Dread Familiar might come up with, and list the Int score it needs to do so?

Ever see the movie Mouse Trap. That's a fair glance at what they could do.