A temporary end of Ravenloft?

[tec-goblin]

The one thing I fear is Ravenloft running out of things to fill a book up with. We allready have the Gaz series to cover all the domains, another five books max, We have had a villian and a hero book (COD and HOL), a book covering a specialty nitche (LOD:B), A book covering monsters (DOD), A few VR guides (WD, SF, and GTT Mists coming up) and the three core books (Dm guide, PHB and SotDR).

I can see roughly eight more books before they run out of ideas- A book on ravenloft races, another two VRAs, The diary of Alak(sp?) Ray covering a rouge gallery of NPC villians, another book cover more secret sociaties and another two VRGs (Horrors of the deep and Arcane (Abberations and other non classifed)) and (at least I would buy it) a book covering the art of Ravenloft and containg detailed maps of each of the domains (esspecial if Talon and Claudio Pozas were put in charge)
.

Regarding Secret Societies, we had a whole thread filled with ideas for many many books. I don't think running out of ideas for RL is near in the horizon - with 3/4 books per year, it can continue until all 2008. Ie, about until 4th Edition (here speculations vary).

[tec-goblin]

I like the way this thread swifted to the "what can we do?" question.
Indeed, I think RL is one of the settings with more support per player. Tons of new netbooks are around (and I hadn't time to read all of them), people write essays etc. One of the reasons it still survives is exactly this phenomenon.

Regarding 4th edition, republishing the rules to 4th Edition will surely help sales for a while. Maybe for 2 years. After it, there may be a problem.

[Jester of the FoS]

There was 14 years between 2nd edition AD&D and 3E. It's been less than five since 3E and half that since the 3.5E reboot.
It should be a while, they can repring the core books again later (repint, not update, like the black covered ones in the '90s).

[Mangrum]

Does that mean that the Gazetteer series has been permanently quashed for sure?

The plans we had for it certainly have been. (I mean, had all gone according to the plan we foresaw, Volume VII would probably be coming out about now.)

But I haven't been in the loop since 2003, so don't look to me for the current state of affairs at Arthaus.

[Drinnik Shoehorn]

To be honest, I think Ravenloft 3rd Ed has been a botched job. It's only a handful of authors who care about the setting that have made a decent job. Having two "developers" who say they love the setting, yet seem to take no critisim on board and hog all the praise for themselves, have little to no idea how to do their job, take little to no interest in the creative process (or so I can gather), when they do actually do some work it's slap dash, have completely mishandled the setting, don't actually seem to understand D&D rules, don't actually seem to understand the setting (case in point: for the upcoming Masque of Jade Horror, they've said it offers an alternate explanation for the Red Death, why? It's pretty much integral to the setting Imhotep summoned the Red Death, so why mess with a formula if it's not broken?) and who don't take an interest in the fanbase beyond those people who say "U R0XX0RZ!!!111! KTHNXBYEXDXDXDXD" has hurt the setting alot.

Ostrising the Kargatane has been the biggest mistake they have made, a point I have made in the past and a point I will stand by. Now we have substandard authors like Tadd MacDivvitt who don't have a clue about the nuances of the setting ("A Cold War between two countries who are miles apart and don't even share a common border! And one leader has a minion who's like unstoppable! Dude, that'd rock!"). Seriously, third party settings don't have to suck. Look at Dragonlance. Most people I've spoken to agree Dragonlance is a difficult setting to play in. Ansalon's history is too detailed and anything monumental has already been covered in novels. But the quality of the products Soverign Press are releasing far outstrips Ravenloft. Yes, Legacies of the Blood was a good book, but VRGttSF was below par, Heroes of Light was instantly forgettable and Champions of Darkness should never, ever have seen print.

The quality of half of the stuff in the BoS___ series and the Undead Sea Scrolls is better than some of the stuff released under the Ravenloft logo. Jesus, if the developers had looked at them they could have allowed new talent to write, not, as it seems, allowing "some guy I met at a convention in '96, I forgot his name, but he shared his nachoes and he was quite cool" to write the books.

The one good thing that could come out of Ravenloft falling out of print is that sites like this can continue to produce decent material. It may be unofficial, but at least it's good.

Edit: I should really point out that I'm very hung-over, had three hours sleep and just sat through a mind-bollocksing lecture on the history of the Irish troubles and how it relates to modern day Irish cinema and literature.

I'm now going to lie down in a darkened room and sleep.

[Joël of the FoS]

Just to remind everybody that:

- Relax, we have no information leading to the end of the line.

- Relax, the Ravenloft online fan base will stay even after an eventual end of the line. If we have to do the Gaz ourselves, we'll do

Joël

[Charney]

I agree with most that has been said here. Slowing down the release schedule doesn't mean the setting is dying. In fact, it'll allow me to buy the books. For instance, I don't have Masque (I still hope for a reprint with errata) and LoB.

But I don't agree that it should all be gazetteers. At least they should vary the narrator. S is great for the core and seas but I'd like some variety. I still say we need a knight of the circle for the Shadowlands (that's what will be written on my tombstone).

And to Drinnik, I assume during your hangover you forgot RL has many talented writers who proven their skills in writting for the setting.

[Shoon VII]

- Relax, the Ravenloft online fan base will stay even after an eventual end of the line. If we have to do the Gaz ourselves, we'll do

Joël

in a strange way, the mistakes of prosucts like Champions of Darkness and Heroes of Light, while nice ideas, can be instructional to the rest of us as WHAT NOT TO DO. if these products are that bad, then we have to hold ourselves accountable to a higher standard when writing material for the setting and must depend on the discerning eyes of our collegues to help us make the product better.

[Charney]

Thankfully, products that followed Champions of D were way better. I can only assume that indeed, new authors in the setting learned from this mistake.

[tec-goblin]

Personally, I liked even CoD, but, yes, it's the weakest book of the line.

[Jester of the FoS]

The one thing I fear is Ravenloft running out of things to fill a book up with. We already have the Gaz series to cover all the domains, another five books max, We have had a villain and a hero book (COD and HOL), a book covering a specialty niche (LOD:B), A book covering monsters (DOD), A few VR guides (WD, SF, and GTT Mists coming up) and the three core books (Dm guide, PHB and SotDR).

I can see roughly eight more books before they run out of ideas- A book on Ravenloft races, another two VRAs, The diary of Alanik Ray covering a rouge gallery of NPC villains, another book cover more secret societies and another two VRGs (Horrors of the deep and Arcane (Aberrations and other non classified)) and (at least I would buy it) a book covering the art of Ravenloft and containing detailed maps of each of the domains (especially if Talon and Claudio Pozas were put in charge)

Even 2ned fell victim to this and just barely filled the gap with adventures , something Ah has already said they would not do.

Well, as noted already, there could easily be more than a single book on Secret Societies, especially with the number in Ravenloft (I think we said one for each rough class such as Martial, Magical and the like but for argument here we’ll just say 2). And many people would love to see another CotN style book, a good way to get past the “no adventures” rule. I doubt the could really cram enough material to make two more VRA books, that was more misc. updates and rules that didn't make it into SDR and the Campaign Setting. That said they could maybe make one more.
That's 9 right there. This, at the current rate, is three more years of Ravenloft, plus any Gazetteers that might be slipped in.

The original 2E line ran for 9 years (1990-1999) and published 30 products not counting novels, adventures and reprints (VR MHC, MCA I&II). The current 3E line will have published 20 in five years (again not counting reprints). After the same amount of time TSR had only published 19, so WW is ahead right now. Even at 3/year they'll easily pass TSR at the nine-year mark.
That's pretty darn good. Especially when 13 of the 20 products are really damn good (with 3 of the 20 not being out yet so really it's 13 of 17). Can the original line make the same claim to quality not factoring nostalgia?

So shortage of ideas or not WW is kickin' some posterior!
And heck, I can think of more books right here. How about a Book of Ages with more rules on advanced and not-so-advanced culture levels as well as domains in the past and fallen darklords crammed with new equipment, CL related feats and spells? Really show the difference between classical, savage and renaissance. Plus new and improve gun rules. An Atlas of the Mists with the updated names and information from the Gazetteers easily paired with a poster map and 3.5 DM screen. Or even a book on the future, possibilities for what could happen in 5-10 years and changes to the realms such as replacement darklords and the like.

[Charney]

I think you have a lot of good ideas there Jester!

[midnightcat]

Even if the line has slow downed a little, I am happy with Ravenloft. We are actually Lucky, besides Dragonlance and Forgotten realms, thier hasn't been any other old stting that have made the jump form 2nd ed to 3rd. Even if some books were bad, atleast we had books to buy.

[Le Noir Faineant]

Just to remind everybody that:

- Relax, we have no information leading to the end of the line.

- Relax, the Ravenloft online fan base will stay even after an eventual end of the line. If we have to do the Gaz ourselves, we'll do

Joël

What do you Englishmen say in such an occasion?
*Huzza!!!* ?
*Hooray!!!* ?
*Hear, hear!!!*

I personally tend to say something like *Yeah! Spoken like a true child of the night!*

Even if the line has slow downed a little, I am happy with Ravenloft. We are actually Lucky, besides Dragonlance and Forgotten realms, thier hasn't been any other old stting that have made the jump form 2nd ed to 3rd. Even if some books were bad, atleast we had books to buy.

Very right. BTW, I honestly don't understand exactly that there is something to complain about: I mean, one has always take into account that RL still is nothing more than a niche setting in a generally overfed niche market.
S&S is doing exactly the right thing: Providing us we the necessary *core* books, then wait until there is really a need to buy new ones.
I mean, how many books that you bought from the RL line are you really using for play? Honestly, I must say only two or three. The rest was nice to read, but objectively, it made nearly no sense buying it for me...

Just compare it to Scarred Lands: They released about 40 products, detailed every corner of the world, regardless ofhow the material was selling, and now the line is stone-dead.

Also, I must say that my interest in a new RL book is higher, if it doesn't pop up every 2 months.
So, I know that I WILL really buy the new VR guide and the MotJD volume. If they were already released, followed by another dozen of other sourcebooks, I'd surely hesistate...



Just my thoughts... In Germany, there is a saying, that something has to *gesundschrumpfen* to really prosper, maybe someone can translate that for me... Means that sometimes less is more...

[Coan]

But if less is more then imagine just how much more, more will be.

Sorry but that line is great. I think cutting the line back to four books a year or so is the best thing. Can't wait for the new Masque.