Page 2 of 2

Posted: Fri May 06, 2005 8:00 am
by Lost and Damned
I voted yes as well...

I was watching the series on the infamous Nazi camp Auswizch(SP?)....

The things the Commandant endorsed against these poor people, and yet he went to his home nearby and played with his children and did what ever things a husband does with his wife :D yet he was a mass murderer :evil: but was capable of love.....

Posted: Fri May 06, 2005 8:10 am
by Stygian Inquirer
Can evil people love? Yes
Do they love in the same way as good people? No

I think that an evil person's version of love would be kind of twisted:

"Hi honey, I'm home!"
"What happened to you today dear?"
"Well I had to go out and get your birthday present."
"What is it?"
"Remember that guy that once hit on you at a party when I was right there?"
"Yeah..."
"Well I got you this necklace and this moisturizing cream."
"I don't know what to say..."
"The necklace is made from his bones and the rest of him was used in the cream."
"Oh darling, I LOVE it!"

Posted: Fri May 06, 2005 2:15 pm
by Jester of the FoS
I dare you to walk up to Strahd and tell him he's not man enough to lova Tatyana. :D

Can evil love? Yes, how and why vary. As stated early on some twisted folk may be only capable of selfish love, other only acts of obsession. Can they still love though? Probably, if they are human they are capable of love.

As stated at the very begining the only creatures not capable of love are those so entirely detatched and removed from humanity they are pure evil.

Posted: Tue May 17, 2005 7:47 am
by Sir T
*stares at thread title*

<.<

>.>

Whatever you might have heard heard, its a foul rumour and its all lies.

*sound of whetstone sharpening Holy avanger*

Just keeping everyone informed...

Nathan of the Frat wrote: To borrow the phrase of a philospher whose name I really should remember, they think of the whole world as "it" rather than "thou"; objects to be manipulated instead of people to be understood.
Sounds like Hegel to me.

*Goes off, whistling*

Posted: Thu May 19, 2005 11:04 am
by AdamGarou
Well, here goes nothing.

My thoughts really are that someone who is genuinely, truly evil is not capable of love. When so-called "love" is motivated by self-interest--as I think all evil individuals are--then I can't call it "love." That's why I think only the second poll item is possible--Strahd can obsess over Tatyana, yearn for her, give up his mortality and soul for her, but (IMHO) he can't actually LOVE her. It's just beyond his capabilities, and pretty much always was. Maybe as a young boy he could have, or maybe not. Maybe it just slipped through his fingers one day, washed out by the river of Terg blood he shed in reclaiming his homeland.

I guess I have to define "love" as being self-sacrificing... when the happiness of someone else is more important to you than your own. I don't think evil people have the ability to feel that way--I believe they will always care more for themselves than anyone or anything else. Like Hazlik's feelings for Eleni of Toyalis--I think Gaz I states that "while Hazlik does care for Eleni, he loves himself far more." Which is of course, why he'll go through the Mulan-destruction/life-force transferral ritual.

Or, more obviously, like Strahd--he convinced himself that Tatyana would be far happier with him than with a naive boy like Sergei, but 'taint necessarily so. His own happiness required that Tatyana love him and not marry Sergei, and he took rather violent (and final) steps to ensure that his own happiness would come about.

I think Nathan hit it on the head when he mentioned the philosopher who postulates that "evil" individuals see the rest of the world not as thinking, creative entities like themselves but as objects to be possessed or manipulated for one's own pleasure. So I don't really hold with the example of the mafia guy or the guard from Auschwitz--I think the mafioso views his children (and wife, if she's there) as his possessions... things that give him status and that other "families" will try to take away. He defends them out of pride and reputation, not because of genuine affection.

Same thing with the guy from Auschwitz--if he's a mass murderer during the day and comes home to his wife and children at night, he's still the same mass murderer. To be able to do the things he did, he had to shut off his capacity for empathy, which I think is another important ingredient for actual "love" to exist. My belief is that he is just going through the motions being affectionate to his wife and children... but he can't truly care about them (at least not the way he once could) because of what he's done.

Anyway, that's my two coppers. Thanks to everyone who provided responses--even if I don't fully agree with most of them, they certainly provided some food for thought. :wink:

Posted: Thu May 19, 2005 3:22 pm
by Brandi
AdamGarou wrote:Same thing with the guy from Auschwitz--if he's a mass murderer during the day and comes home to his wife and children at night, he's still the same mass murderer. To be able to do the things he did, he had to shut off his capacity for empathy, which I think is another important ingredient for actual "love" to exist. My belief is that he is just going through the motions being affectionate to his wife and children... but he can't truly care about them (at least not the way he once could) because of what he's done.
Ah, I'd like to believe it was that straightforward. Studies of ingroup identification and outgroup rejection among cultures, as well as studies like the Milgram experiment and the Stanford prison experiment, suggest to me that there are few-- maybe NO-- people who are not capable of maintaining a fondness for those near and dear to them, for loving them... and turning on those who are not part of that circle with no compunction.

Heck, saying "Oh, the SS guard isn't really capable of kindness and human feelings" might very well be whistling past the graveyard, trying to say "I could never do such things. Never. Of course not."

Except... you might be able to.

[Whoa, this is a real up way to start the day.]

[ETA: 'you' in that last paragraph is not you specifically, Adam, but a general rhetorical pronoun.]

Posted: Mon May 30, 2005 4:58 pm
by Sunstar
Greetings dwellers of the Mists

It has been some time... After nine months I decided to stop hybernating and feel the warmth of the forthcoming summer :)

I'm glad to see that the Cafe keeps its high standards :)

All creatures, as twisted and corrupted they might be, are by nature capable of loving.
The question shouldn't be whether evil and love go together but whether a trully evil person allows itself revealing his love - a weakness possibly used by conspirators. In the case where the Darklord :Strahd: had nothing to be afraid of he tried to express his love. The fact that he did never reach the "sweetheart" part isn't because he didn't want to - it was because his love was to be turned into his torment...
So, in RL it turns out that revealing such a wickness can only give a way to the DP to manipulate you even further and drag you deeper into the dirt of this wretched place, doing attrocities in the name of your beloved one...

Just some after-midnight thoughts... :roll:

Always glad to help
Sunstar