Café de Nuit

Manofevil wrote:Somebody please tell me this is another misconception.

FWIW, I think Drakov lies between the two extremes you mention: he does a lot more than sit around, but he's not a full-on micromanager either. Remember that his minions had to get a disporportionately higher amount of coverage in Gaz II, because we'd previously known so little about them; Vlad himself had been written up before, but the Talons' evils had been neglected apart from a few module-appearances. :-/

Also, remember that Drakov's in his 90s now, and has only the vaguest notion of his own "special" (=darklord) status that makes chronological age a non-factor. While physiologically he may yet have the body of a middle-aged man, mentally he may simply be getting tired of hands-on battlefield leadership -- especially given how frustrated his every effort at victory has been, for over half a century! -- so has stepped back a bit to adopt more of a "grand strategist" approach, at least in his own mind. This leaves the grunt-work of command to his subordinates (whom he can then blame for all the screw-ups; the mercenary's a stubborn fool, but not a total moron ), while Drakov salves his pride by abusing his subjects and playing (very poorly; no wonder Azalin scoffs at him!) at the "evil mastermind" side of being a BBEG.

Manofevil wrote:What else have we, the fans, gotten wrong in the past?

Nothing at all. Just like any other setting, RL is what you [the DM] decide it should be. It's not like the Kargat will send a death squad to your home if you happen to misrepresent Darkon (or any other domain) in regard to the way they're supposed to be according to "canon" lore.

I vividly remember this (near-) flame war we had some time ago about the fact that some of us considered Darkon to be like Russia in the Tsar-era.

In short, whatever works for you is fine. Now, convincing others on this board that your vision is the right one.. that's a different story

Mangrum wrote:If anything, the general obsession of this community with finding 1-for-1 parallels between RL characters/domains and real life is the most persistent and counterproductive misconception I can name.

That's a bit of a sweeping statement there John. I would be interested to know what exactly you mean by "counterproductive misconception". I mean after all, Ravenloft, despite all its originality and signature style is founded and derived from myths, legends and historical/natural concepts that come from the "real world". Parallels are not only inevitable, they're an absolute necessity if we are to gain any meaning from the characters and stories.

Perhaps you meant that you have an aversion to some gamers insisting on the exactitude in behavior and appearance to historical figures, in which case it would counteract the quintessential Ravenloft modus operandi of amalgamating (not replicating!).

Like I said, I'd like to understand what you mean.

I think, and I'm more than prepared to be told I'm wrong, that the point he is trying to make is that people who expect the Darklords and their domains to be EXACT copies of real life.

Parallels are to be expected, but they shouldn't be exact templates, which is what some people, and I mean some seem to expect.

FWIW, I think that this is an interesting discussion. But I think also that those who want to use historical models are missing something very important. Ravenloft is a fantasy setting.

For those who demand a real world feel, Ravenloft has a little sister setting: Masque of the Red Death.

I am not implying that historical models should not be used, but simply that there is another alternative.

Mangrum wrote:If anything, the general obsession of this community with finding 1-for-1 parallels between RL characters/domains and real life is the most persistent and counterproductive misconception I can name.

Okay, okay... let's think this through... This is an opportunity to learn... okay, I think I got it.

I think what is meant by this is that to want to stick too closely to a fixed idea of 1-to-1 comparaison has the potential to limit one's creativity. The fact that we, as a community I guess, but also my own gaming group, do draw on the paralels I think is just that we like the history, but Ravenlft, being inspired by (and not the same as) allows us the freedom to create characters that feel extremely grouned in a culture but are also not just stereotypical outgrowths of it.

let's face it: trying too hard for the historical approach can very easily lead one to stereotyping and then every character becomes some variation on a theme.

I think the important thing is to keep the flavour intact, which can easily exist in a fantasy-inspired setting as it can in a historically-inspired one. Now, if drawing on historical elements can help you make the WORLD more believable to you and your players, do it that way. We like to do it that way, to some extent, but the characters and the setting are inspired from Gothic-horror motifs, not necessarily people and cultures.

But trying to say: "Dementlieu is france" can be too limiting. Because then, when you come up against a realm that doesn't seem to have a neat "real-world fit", rather than HELP your sense of suspension of disbelief, it hinders it. You say: "I can't use this realm - it doesn't fit."

Not to mention, if you get a great idea for a character but feel too constrained because you feel you should have to fit him into a specific real-world paralel realm that doesn't exist, then this approach has taken away from your game, not contributed to it.

So, maybe that's what was meant by that comment?

Samael (Jason A.) wrote:That's a bit of a sweeping statement there John. I would be interested to know what exactly you mean by "counterproductive misconception".

For an immediate example, people in this community have been arguing, sometimes quite heatedly, over whether Drakov "is" Vlad Tepes or Adolf Hitler for years. Said argument is based on nothing but preconceptions and has never produced anything but arguments.

Eocine's take is correct. The online RL fan community has a long history of people unable to differentiate "inspired by" from "based on."

ETA: Boccaccio Barbarossa is correct also. I've long since lost count of arguments that were predicated on "Falkovnia is Germany."

Mangrum wrote:

Samael (Jason A.) wrote:That's a bit of a sweeping statement there John. I would be interested to know what exactly you mean by "counterproductive misconception".

For an immediate example, people in this community have been arguing, sometimes quite heatedly, over whether Drakov "is" Vlad Tepes or Adolf Hitler for years. Said argument is based on nothing but preconceptions and has never produced anything but arguments.

Eocine's take is correct. The online RL fan community has a long history of people unable to differentiate "inspired by" from "based on."

ETA: Boccaccio Barbarossa is correct also. I've long since lost count of arguments that were predicated on "Falkovnia is Germany."

I can certainly see how that can become very tedious. Basically it's the "pigeon-hole syndrome" of some people in the community that's worn you out by the sound of it. The types that always want to nail something down in terms of absoultes and concretes, rarely if ever embracing terms like "feeling", "inspired by" and "reminiscent of".

I get what you are saying now.

Samael (Jason A.) wrote:I can certainly see how that can become very tedious. Basically it's the "pigeon-hole syndrome" of some people in the community that's worn you out by the sound of it. The types that always want to nail something down in terms of absoultes and concretes, rarely if ever embracing terms like "feeling", "inspired by" and "reminiscent of".

I get what you are saying now.

I like to compare that type of running around in circles and trying to catch your own tail to the discussion going on about the Time of Ultimate Darkness... I've given up on the whole issue: let it stand as-is and accept that, what works for you is the only measure of worth.

it's funny how the spirit of a discussion is entirely driven by the motivation behind it. take that same thread: many of the ideas are fantastic, great stuff! BUT, because everybody is trying to find THE answer (which it has already been admitted does not exist) the same points keep coming up over and over again...

But, if the goal was "hey' let's all make something of this ToUD" then we might have 1 or 2 great collaborative efforts...

Sounds like we've just hit the largest thing we've misconceived. Seriously tho, I think this is one of the primary reasons why I miss the novels as much as I do. In the novels, We could get a look at the Darklords and other NPCs interacting with other people. I also liked that about the BOS series framing fictions. We don't have enough material about these people to really know how they can be expected to react to situations. e.g. Is there a long list of anecdotal tales for Drakov similar to those included in the essay provided by Mr. Cabbage? What of the lord of Souragne? Is there something horrible he's still doing or does he just sit in his mansion like Lord Soth? What does Nathan Timothy do all day on the riverboat? That's one thing I really like about the 'Quote The Raven' series: It gives us a chance to clarify some of these things. And in lieu of the publishers, the Fraternity is a good way to establish canon. Perhaps we should put our collective heads together and answer some of these questions?

Manofevil wrote:Sounds like we've just hit the largest thing we've misconceived. Seriously tho, I think this is one of the primary reasons why I miss the novels as much as I do. In the novels, We could get a look at the Darklords and other NPCs interacting with other people. I also liked that about the BOS series framing fictions. We don't have enough material about these people to really know how they can be expected to react to situations. e.g. Is there a long list of anecdotal tales for Drakov similar to those included in the essay provided by Mr. Cabbage? What of the lord of Souragne? Is there something horrible he's still doing or does he just sit in his mansion like Lord Soth? What does Nathan Timothy do all day on the riverboat? That's one thing I really like about the 'Quote The Raven' series: It gives us a chance to clarify some of these things. And in lieu of the publishers, the Fraternity is a good way to establish canon. Perhaps we should put our collective heads together and answer some of these questions?

Yeah. I think so. After all: we have the stats, we have the expansions, we know what they CAn do... now DO they do on a daily basis? And how does what they do impact on those around them?... In more ways than just "he's evil!"

Mangrum wrote:For an immediate example, people in this community have been arguing, sometimes quite heatedly, over whether Drakov "is" Vlad Tepes or Adolf Hitler for years. Said argument is based on nothing but preconceptions and has never produced anything but arguments.

No, he's Stalin!

Eocine's take is correct. The online RL fan community has a long history of people unable to differentiate "inspired by" from "based on."

ETA: Boccaccio Barbarossa is correct also. I've long since lost count of arguments that were predicated on "Falkovnia is Germany."

I think we have to read in those post an assumed "in my campaign" or "in my view" hypothesis. I think fan debates on this type of question isn't to get the ultimate truth (hopefully), but to add various elements to their campaign (well, again, hopefully).

Joël

Joël of the Fraternity wrote:

Mangrum wrote:For an immediate example, people in this community have been arguing, sometimes quite heatedly, over whether Drakov "is" Vlad Tepes or Adolf Hitler for years. Said argument is based on nothing but preconceptions and has never produced anything but arguments.

No, he's Stalin!

Eocine's take is correct. The online RL fan community has a long history of people unable to differentiate "inspired by" from "based on."

ETA: Boccaccio Barbarossa is correct also. I've long since lost count of arguments that were predicated on "Falkovnia is Germany."

I think we have to read in those post an assumed "in my campaign" or "in my view" hypothesis. I think fan debates on this type of question isn't to get the ultimate truth (hopefully), but to add various elements to their campaign (well, again, hopefully).

Joël

That's very likely, but I know that our group often confuses "in my campaign" with "the way it should be/is"...