Half-Orcs possibly out of 4E. Fate of the Caliban?

[Rotipher of the FoS]

The scarcity of demihumans has always helped set Ravenloft apart from other D&D settings. In-character, it rather implies that the Dark Powers are specifically interested in humans (or near-humans, once-humans, and pseudo-humans), or at least in types of evil which are better illustrated by a human mindset.

In that respect, calibans -- at least, human-derived calibans -- actually fit the setting better than do the standard "fantasy races" from the PHB.


About Ravenloft "hobgoblins", assuming that's what the "mystery race" is: I think that if we do incorporate them into 4E Ravenloft, it'd be best to give them a comparable makeover to how half-orcs became calibans. Perhaps an artificial warrior-race, like goblyns, would be the way to go? They could be something Hazlik invented to replace Hazlan's ruling caste, once the Mulan are gone, or perhaps oni-tainted soldiers in service to one of Shinpi Haki's feuding sons.

[Jester of the FoS]

My concern is whatever new races come out of the PHB... It'll be harder explaining regular numbers of warforged or hobgoblins.

Between Mordenheim, Easan and Azalin (doomguards), it's not hard to explain warforged. Heck, they're downright atmospheric if there are only a few. (Like Ed in Fullmetal Alchemist!)

Hobgoblins are, well, much harder. For an individual campaign it would be pretty easy to retrofit goblyns and/or the Crown of Souls to explain a hobgoblin presence in Ravenloft, but that's too big a change to be palatable as a canon explanation. You'd probably have to add a hobgoblin-centered domain somewhere to account for it.

It's Al that's the warforged in FMA.

And hobgoblins are caliban goblins, so that works...

[Undead Cabbage]

I've always been of the opinion that Calibans were an example of what should be done with all of the races. Ravenloft really deserves it's own batch of races to help maintain the atmosphere, while still giving the players plenty of options to choose from.

I mean honestly, why do we care what WOTC does any more? Yes, it's great that we're updating everything for 4E, but it's like cure said: we give homage to Ravenloft, not just a darker version of whatever WOTC is doing.

(Like Ed in Fullmetal Alchemist!)

It's Al that's the warforged in FMA.

Oh great that is just what we need: mainstream anime characters in Ravenloft *sigh*. In all fairness though, FMA would actually fit pretty well, as technically would some others. Good idea Nathan. And I take it naturally there'd have to be all the Homunculi.

[DocBeard]

Hobgoblins are, well, much harder. For an individual campaign it would be pretty easy to retrofit goblyns and/or the Crown of Souls to explain a hobgoblin presence in Ravenloft, but that's too big a change to be palatable as a canon explanation. You'd probably have to add a hobgoblin-centered domain somewhere to account for it.

I don't think that's nessicarily a bad thing. Like how in Ravenloft, elves provide a humanized face of the fey, hobgoblins could provide a humanized face of the terrible bogey-monsters that warp animals, set traps for the unwary, and conduct foul rites to forgotten monster-gods. The whole idea of the goblin is a major part of human myth, in my opinion, and there's no reason it can't fit as well as dwarves, gnomes, halflings and elves do. Just takes a little spit, polish, and willingness to put them in waistcoats.

[Rotipher of the FoS]

The problem would be finding a way to "put them in waistcoats" in a way that doesn't detract from the creepy image of mainstream goblins and goblyns in Ravenloft. We don't want to end up nerfing the goblinkin in the process, the way Klingons and Borg lost so much of their scariness once they put Klingon and Borg heroes in the Star Trek crews. Part of the point to Ravenloft adventures is that some monsters really can't be tamed, and the description of goblins in Gaz V seems to have been slanted to make this particular setting's goblinfolk truly beyond the pale, not just "misunderstood" or "primitive".

[Jester of the FoS]

Of course, the current rumor de jour (from people claiming their FLGS got the Races & Classes preview book early) is that the "mystery 8th race" will be...




wait for it...




Dragonborn.

Yup, lizard men.
While there's a way to fit changelings, warforged, shifters, halforcs/caliban and even hobgoblins, eladrin and tieflings into Ravenloft without harming the flavour or setting (heck, most actually improve said flavour if done right) I'm at a freakin' loss to explain anthropomorphised lizards related to giant flying reptiles that breathe fire.

[Nathan of the FoS]

Of course, the current rumor de jour (from people claiming their FLGS got the Races & Classes preview book early) is that the "mystery 8th race" will be...




wait for it...




Dragonborn.

!

Yup, lizard men.
While there's a way to fit changelings, warforged, shifters, halforcs/caliban and even hobgoblins, eladrin and tieflings into Ravenloft without harming the flavour or setting (heck, most actually improve said flavour if done right) I'm at a freakin' loss to explain anthropomorphised lizards related to giant flying reptiles that breathe fire.

Well...how about, "Dragonborn is the new Caliban?"

[Undead Cabbage]

We don't want to end up nerfing the goblinkin in the process, the way Klingons and Borg lost so much of their scariness once they put Klingon and Borg heroes in the Star Trek crews.

did...did you just relate Ravenloft...to Star Trek?

*Sharon gets 50 awesome points!*

[Rotipher of the FoS]

While there's a way to fit changelings, warforged, shifters, halforcs/caliban and even hobgoblins, eladrin and tieflings into Ravenloft without harming the flavour or setting (heck, most actually improve said flavour if done right) I'm at a freakin' loss to explain anthropomorphised lizards related to giant flying reptiles that breathe fire.

Yeah, that one would be tough. Unless the stats turn out to be something we can convert to a Broken One-type, we might have to give dragonborn a miss.

Really, if a 4E race turns out to be incompatible with Ravenloft's themes and backstory, we don't have to include it at all. Gothic Earth gets by just fine without demihumans, and plenty of campaigns don't use any exotic races except (maybe) calibans and half-Vistani. Until we get a look at their stats, we should hold back any commitment to adopt new races wholesale -- eladrin and tieflings included -- to ensure the Land of Mists retains its uniqueness.

[cure]

Well the reverse Slay Living spell from early in the Requiem trilogy produced, in effect, constructs. And its updated version in Gaz II explicitly produced constructs, although this was before the distinction of living vs. non-living constructs. So there is room to sort out what sort of construct and perhaps appropriate something of the warforged into that.

[Dimitri Mazieres]

Yup, lizard men.
While there's a way to fit changelings, warforged, shifters, halforcs/caliban and even hobgoblins, eladrin and tieflings into Ravenloft without harming the flavour or setting (heck, most actually improve said flavour if done right) I'm at a freakin' loss to explain anthropomorphised lizards related to giant flying reptiles that breathe fire.

Again, may I ask why everything from 4e must be fit into Ravenloft?

[cure]

Again, may I ask why everything from 4e must be fit into Ravenloft?

Illithids from WOTC have been devouring the brains of members, one by one, and replacing them plyable ooze.

PS You are slated to be next . . . .

[Jonathan Winters]

About Dragonborn...

A RL take on those could be seen as some transformation INTO said race through some ritual?? (But then again, Caliban-as-Dragonborn works for me...)

Please see the Mojh from Arcana Evolved for inspiration perhaps? (which I plan to use myself in my campaign).

Cheers.
Patrick

[Isabella]

I don't have the book on me - are dragonborn the "elves with extra colorful skin" race or the "spray painted draconian" race? If it's the latter, it IS a ritual transformation - and they would probably end up more like the shadow dragons, since they're the only ones in Ravenloft.

Or we could just take a cue from Darksun, and say "we don't have those here."

[DocBeard]

Hazlan's useful for that. Whereas Azlin's more into necromancy, and Darkon's other wizards tend to follow suit, Hazlik is all about the monster maker, and activly encourages his students to do the same. I could totally see some enterprizing Red Academy graduate students taking some Rashmani and screwing around with what makes them work.

Also, re: Hobgoblins. Do elves take away from the fey? I don't think they do: Elves are "civilized" fey, who've given up some of the power, immortality, and menace of being fey in order to live from a more mortal perspective. Which means that they have just as much, if not more, to fear from the "old school" fey as any human would; not only do they have the normal bit, but a given fairy might /expect/ an elf to "understand" why it's sawing some little girl's legs off, and get enraged at the "Uncle Elwyn" when said elf doesn't.

Hobgoblins can have the same effect: It's been a fantasy trope to give the monsterous races souls for years, now. By having a specific sub-race be the "humanized" group of monsters, you're free to make the /other/ kinds of goblins as screwed up as you want-providing a bit of the familiar is a great way to force your players to keep guessing about something they find in the woods, instead of defaulting to a call of cthulu style, "It's moving and it's not human-set it on fire!" method of play. Just like it's a bad idea to assume a group of halflings are going to be a little exploitive but ultimately nice people, since the whole 'bitterkinder' bit reminded us that some halflings hide out in the woods because it's easier to eat the flesh of nosy meddlers in private.

I'm not saying make all goblins, or even all hobgoblins "misunderstood"; there's very little to misunderstand about most of Tepest's goblin tribes, because they want to kill and eat you. But having a "civilized" branch of the species gives you more room to work with, leading to more adventures. Birthright did it really well, and I think Ravenloft could benefit from their example.