The canon material that doesn't really fit

[cure]

Hazlan

The domain is fine by itself, an while hazlik isn't the most original darklord, I think he still bring a little something to the setting. My biggest beef is with the geographical position of Hazlan. It just feel wrong to have that exotic oriental domain in the center of 4 western european domains. It seem less exotic when Nova Vaasa and Barovia can easily trade with it.

Well, it can easily trade with Immol. Whether Immol can easily trade with the rest of Barovia is very much in doubt. Trade with Nova Vaasa is also documented, but the road from Toyalis to Sly-Var and on to Nova Vaasa becomes a wagon trail beyond Sly-Var precisely because trade is not so hot. Othmar's taxes are explicitly given as a reason. Bandits along the routes south to Arbora and especially north to Bergovitsa and beyond might be another. A further one, which runs in the opposite direction and which squares with known facts, is that the trade largely switches to the Saniset River at Sly-Var (or earlier). As for Kartakass, or the reminents of Forlorn for that matter, there appears to be virtually no trade heading west. The only interaction to the west that I can recall, is a rent a wizard service to an embattled elf lord in Sithicus. Indeed the wizards seem to get out and about a bit, but so less for everyone else. Perhaps the diabolic tatooing brings out the pitchforks.

[Scipion_Emilien]

While I know that, I find it odd that nobody has found in his interest to work those difficulties. Given the exotism of Hazlani goods, people are probably ready to pay a good price. And when something has a good price, there is always a warlord ready to pacify the region in exchange for his commission.

The thing that bother me is that most of the obstacle could be remove if there was will. While distance remain distance.

But this is far from being the worst offender. I m more curious about what people think about Nova Vaasa.

[cure]

Opium is perhaps a useful line of inquiry to follow in respect to Hazlan, Nova Vaasa and beyond.

Malkan presumably insures that Nova Vaasa gets all the opium that it can consume. And that opium comes from Hazlan. Delivery by water would be most appealing as that gets you to every place of consequence in Nova Vaasa except Bergovitsa, without bandits and tax collectors at every single turn. Still, Malkan must have considerable control over taxation on the Saniset River, the South Dnar River, and the Vaugh Dnar River.

We should presume that opium is legal everywhere (or nearly). This implies that it is not the highly priced product that we know it as being. But it may be a highly taxed product, and indeed everything in Nova Vaasa is highly taxed. So that is Malkan's profit margin: every hit of the stuff delivered tax free.

Profitably exporting further afield than Nova Vaasa involves either going through Malkan or going around Nova Vaasa. And neither are likely to be very profitable for the Hazlani. Mule trains of opium over the Balinoks to the Old Svalich Road should be a wolf's delight. And mule train drivers to Kartakass should be a wolfwere's delight. Trade through the Misty Border to Pharazia might have potential. Better would be for Captains of the Mist (the prestige class) to use the Misty Border for destinations accessible so directly to none other than the Vistani themselves.

Indeed Hazlan may be stuffed with products for which there would be markets if only the product could be carried there reliably enough and safely enough to be economical. This would imply that there might be a fairly constant stream of adventurers ready to make their fortune by getting by the wolves to the north or the wolfweres to the west. Could Harkon be bribed to playball? Maybe? But would his fellow wolfweres let alone Mother Fury play along? I doubt it.

If Hazlik actually cared about his domain, perhaps something could be attempted to redress the situation, but he has a transplanar genocide to organise.

The attitude of Strahd is probably the one of consequence. I could actually see him thinking that opium is not good for the state of his precious human resources and thus would be more than happy to have opium merchants feeding his wolves. But if he actually needs the money, or thinks that doping up the Gundarakans is clever, perhaps a route over the Balinoks for six months a year becomes possible.

Of course once a product can be transported in bulk via magic more economically than it can be dragged somewhere, you have established its maximum price. And conditions that make it possible to drag it there for less, represent profit for someone other than the state and someone other than Red Wizards in training who really should have better things to do with their talents, i.e., assisting in the organisation of a transplanar genocide.

So I really think it falls to Malkan, half-Vistani captains of the Mists, Vistani, and would be merchant adventurers to make trade happen. Othmar cannot imagine the benefits of 'free trade'; Hazlik has other fish to fry; Harkon probably lacks the necessary attention and focus; and Strahd might be indifferent to export beyond Barovia but never has seemed to want for coin nor to care to make of Barovia a nation of any real (economic) consequence.

PS

If one can drag the stuff to the Musarde River in western Hazlan then navigate the river in some sort of defensible craft and make the necessary payments to Harkon and to Azrial, then you are in Invidia. Pay off Malocchio and survive Verbrek, and you are in Borca. But the profit margin risks having evaporated by that point if not sooner. Remember the benefits of free trade have only been truly accepted by our ''enlightened'' governments in our life time.

[Deewun]

Opium opium opium

This is INCREDIBLY well thought out, cure! A whole campaign can be centered on just this facet, which is GREAT, and I may just do that.

[Rotipher of the FoS]

Hazlan

The domain is fine by itself, an while hazlik isn't the most original darklord, I think he still bring a little something to the setting. My biggest beef is with the geographical position of Hazlan. It just feel wrong to have that exotic oriental domain in the center of 4 western european domains. It seem less exotic when Nova Vaasa and Barovia can easily trade with it.

Well, the real Wallachia (i.e. the historical Dracula's home turf) had the Turks on its doorstep for centuries, so geographic proximity to an equally exotic culture isn't really a departure for Ravenloft's Wallachia-equivalent. Same goes for the Core's equivalent of the Ukraine, which has also had a lot stronger ties to Central Asia than to Western Europe. Only Kartakass is a genuine mismatch there, IMO, and it's bound to be an outlier no matter what, as it was created for a born monster to whom all human culture is equally foreign.

[Agamemnon]

Well, the real Wallachia (i.e. the historical Dracula's home turf) had the Turks on its doorstep for centuries, so geographic proximity to an equally exotic culture isn't really a departure for Ravenloft's Wallachia-equivalent.

A little off-topic here, but I thought Falkovnia was Ravenloft's analogue of Wallachia, and that Barovia was an analogue of Bram Stoker's fanciful version of Transylvania?
Vlad Dracula --> Vlad Drakov? They also share a penchant for making concentric circles of people impaled on stakes.

In any case, now that I am off-topic, your comment about Turks on the doorstep got me thinking that Ravenloft should have, nay, must have something analogous to the Ottoman Empire on the Core; all those Slavic-inspired domains in Ravenloft need an expansionist Eastern neighbour against which to defend their holy motherlands.

"Forward, soldiers! Not one inch back! Defend Mother Falkovnia from these infidel dogs!"

Or words to that effect...

Cheers.

[cure]

Ravenloft should have, nay, must have something analogous to the Ottoman Empire on the Core; all those Slavic-inspired domains in Ravenloft need an expansionist Eastern neighbour against which to defend their holy motherlands.

That would be Nova Vaasa. Check out the Gorkynites for the details: http://fraternityofshadows.com/wiki/Gorkynites

[Agamemnon]

Expansionist, maybe, but not near Central Asian enough (or at all, for that matter) for my taste as an invader of the Slavic-like domains. Besides, one of the things I was really unhappy about in the 3E incarnation of Ravenloft was the Babelfish Danish (boy, oh boy, does it have some hilarious results, especially the infamous Black Iron Shield Mountains) used for the languages in Nova Vaasa and Hazlan, so I'd probably never use anything derived from that.

However, considering that I've never used Nova Vaasa for anything, I could replace it with an Ottoman-inspired domain in my own campaign. It has the location and size for an aggressive, expansionist power that threaten its "Slavic" neighbours.

Cheers.

[Strahdsbuddy]

Not even that sect solely, but the entire Church of the Lawgiver has that feel of an unwelcome expansionist religion. The Balinoks would form a natural barrier to the expansion of the Iron Faith, and one that pales in comparison to the theological barriers in places like Tepest, former G'Henna, and the faithless Barovia. Is the Church of the Lawgiver in fact cursed by the Mists as well?

Back to topic, the existance of the Shadow Rift never really sat well with me. The Fey are a fantastic addition to the setting, but the gaping donut hole in the middle of the land mass seems unnecissary. Replace Markovia with another land, perhaps within a year of the Grand Conjunction, but leaving it as is seemed silly to me. As mentioned elsewhere (Not in this thread) G'Henna works better as a Core domain than an island, and the Markovia gap could be filled by a cold, mountanous domain with several rivers....

[DocBeard]

Really, just make the Danish names Turkish. The Nova Vaasan culture and feel is way more Middle Eastern than North European. Or write off the names as Graben influence since the Graben trading houses likely had a huge effect on Nova Vaasa once the Nocturnal Sea opened up.

Malken works a lot better as a Napoleon of Crime figure who represents the corruption of the system Tristen's spent his life defending.

[Nathan of the FoS]

A tangentially related remark--I find the best way to appreciate a domain is to go over what's been written, then expand on it. I pretty much wanted to drop-kick Sithicus out of the Mists until I wrote a netbook article for a secret society there, and I never liked Hazlan at all until I started playing a Mulani swordmage a couple of months ago and got interested in the canon Hazlan backstory. I've used that to go into more detail on Hazlani history, government, and culture, and Hazlan is becoming one of my favorite domains.

I don't know how far this goes--I've never tried with, say, I'Cath. But, for me at least, it's quite an effective way of appreciating a given domain that initially strikes me as unprepossessing.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

Expansionist, maybe, but not near Central Asian enough (or at all, for that matter) for my taste as an invader of the Slavic-like domains. Besides, one of the things I was really unhappy about in the 3E incarnation of Ravenloft was the Babelfish Danish.

Well, this is a taste issue, I suppose, but (while I like the real-world influences grafted onto most of the domains) there's no reason that Ravenloft culture has to be lock-step with the real-world inspirations. In fact, a direct copying of the real world would be kind of lazy, IMHO. (OK, OK, Masque is nice, yes, but that's a different aesthetic. It's adding fantasy to the real world setting, not vice versa).

There's no reason why the expansionist exotics can't speak danish instead of turkish, in a fantasy world. It's not even supposed to be danish anyway, but a fantasy version thereof. (As for the quality of the translation, that's another issue. Since I don't speak Danish, I don't notice the humor that a native-speaker would. But a real Danish speaker should be able to easily remedy that by fixing the translations, no?)

[Agamemnon]

but (while I like the real-world influences grafted onto most of the domains) there's no reason that Ravenloft culture has to be lock-step with the real-world inspirations.

True, true. If I really wanted to run a campaign about small Balkan principalities resisting the military might of the Ottoman Empire in the 15th century, I could just as well do that, i.e. create a campaign taking place in Earth's Middle Ages, rather than try to make every aspect of Ravenloft, which is in the end a fantasy realm, fit real world history.

So, I know that Ravenloft shouldn't just be a carbon copy of medieval Europe. I just thought that since we have so many Slavic-inspired domains in the Ravenloft setting, it could maybe be a nice touch to have them menaced by a newly arrived, expansionist empire "from Eastern lands." Or not. It was just a little brain wave I had.

There's no reason why the expansionist exotics can't speak danish instead of turkish, in a fantasy world. It's not even supposed to be danish anyway, but a fantasy version thereof.

True again, but for someone who does speak Danish, it presents two problems.

First of all, the "Danish" in Ravenloft is of course not meant to be Danish from Earth; it is meant to represent a foreign language, where English (usually, if the players are in the US or the UK) is used to portray the tongue most familiar to the characters.

For a Danish-speaking player the language isn't foreign, and therefore Hazlani and Nova Vaasan names will have two names for everything (one in Common and one in Vaasi) that are complete identical, as both the characters' language and the Vaasi tongue is represented by Danish, because the players are Danish.

Secondly, and this is my primary beef, the "Danish" used represent the fantasy language Vaasi is alternately ludicrous, hilarious, and even mildly offensive. For people who even know a smidgeon of Germanic languages, the Vaasi is extremely disruptive to any suspension of disbelief.
However, this is an old problem with Ravenloft, not just with Danish, but with other European languages as well. Most people versed in French will probably have to change the names of Richemulot and Dementlieu.

(As for the quality of the translation, that's another issue. Since I don't speak Danish, I don't notice the humor that a native-speaker would. But a real Danish speaker should be able to easily remedy that by fixing the translations, no?)

Yes, I could fix the names, no problem, but as per my point above, then all Vaasi names would no longer be foreign, but just the same language as what the players speak daily. So my preference would have been that no real world language had been used as the basis for Vaasi or any of the other languages of Ravenloft for that matter.

It is well and good when something just sounds either Serbian or Goidelic or Danish, and you could even borrow names from real world cultures, but when you start importing languages wholesale, problems will occur, if you're not a professional philologist, as most game designers aren't. Again, it's probably not a problem for most native English-speakers, as they often don't know all these languages, but for European players it can be quite jarring to see countries called Mad Place or Eat Your Fill Land.

Wow, we went way off-topic here, and there was also a thread about something similar a long time ago, which ended badly as I recall, so let's leave it here. These are just my personal reasons as to why I didn't like the updates to Vaasan and Hazlani culture in 3E, and I am sure people who aren't versed in Danish can enjoy them without groans or giggles during their campaigns.

However, for those who do not speak Danish, and would like a more authentic Danish as their stand-in for Vaasi, just ask and I would be happy to rename the dubious titles and names in Hazlan and Nova Vaasa .

Cheers.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

First of all, the "Danish" in Ravenloft is of course not meant to be Danish from Earth; it is meant to represent a foreign language, where English (usually, if the players are in the US or the UK) is used to portray the tongue most familiar to the characters.
...
However, this is an old problem with Ravenloft, not just with Danish, but with other European languages as well. Most people versed in French will probably have to change the names of Richemulot and Dementlieu.

Fair enough, and as you mention, this is a problem inherent in English speakers writing material primarily for English speakers, and trying to get the "feel" of a foreign language. The only alternatives really are to make all the language gibberish, or invest in a real linguist to make them up (a la Klingon... Qap'la!), or have a good translation and localization team that flips the language. (Then you have to hope that the Danish speakers don't speak the "exotic" English language, of course. Good luck with that).

But gibberish tends to sound like gibberish, and the other options are likely too expensive...

[ewancummins]

Quoting myself from another thread:

My advice is to not think of the Core as 'Europe.' Most of the countries aren't very old ( even in their 'false histories' most are only a few centuries old), there was never anything like the Roman Empire or Charlemagne's empire, and there is no equivalent to the powerful influence of the Church and the concept of Christendom. It's also much, much more peaceful than Europe-

That being said, I do like the idea of some Ottoman-inspired domain in Ravenloft. Hazlan might easily be re-fitted to be rather Ottoman-esque. Some use of the 'Tergs' from Barovian history might work as well, I suppose- but that might be too close for my taste.