Carnival in Pathfinder

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Nemesio
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Re: Carnival in Pathfinder

Post by Nemesio »

Concerning some of my spell choices, to each their own I guess. I'm not terribly worried about balance when it comes to NPCs. I find that all rules systems break down eventually, otherwise there would be no reason to keep reinventing the wheel, right? We wouldn't have as much to occupy us... ;)

...But, in the case of the legend lore ability, it is restricted to object reading. Any details gleaned by that spell would pertain only to an object's history, so the ability is pretty limited... It was just my way of translating a 2nd edition psionic power to a Pathfinderesc spell-like ability...

I'm glad to finally be discussing the subject or alternate evil eye abilities though... I posted those stats a long time ago and nobody noticed them. Of course I didn't describe my creation process step by step either...

As far as posting NPCs on the thread, go to town Giamarga! That is what it is there fore. Oh, and thanks for the compliment... Who would you like to see next? :)
Last edited by Nemesio on Mon Jan 27, 2014 9:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Carnival in Pathfinder

Post by The Giamarga »

The first reason, is all those classes existed in 2E. If the writers wanted him to be a Bard, Ranger, or Rogue, they could have given him that class and been done with it. I really think he was classed as a Fighter originally because that was the "every man" class of 2E, the class you got if nothing else fit.
I feel the designers sometimes overlooked existing kits - maybe not being familiar or fans of some of the Complete books. Especially for kits which did change the base class considerably. But you're right aside from the abhorrent 0-lvl stats, fighter sure was the everyman stat for lowlevel NPCs. Still I have no qualms about changing or further developing the 2E stats if it makes the NPC more interesting or usable while still encapturing the spirit of the NPC or at least not deviating too far from it.

So here's my modified bard build for the Organ Grinder. I switched out Iron Will and Toughness for Animal Affinity and Spellsong, which handily eplains his hidden spellcasting. I also noted a few more skills in which he possesses no ranks, but which he still might use: Bluff for the Skurra siltent "tongue" (i.e. convey secret message), craft for repairing/modifying the organ, diplomacy and intimidate both of which he can do quite well via versatile performance with his organ. That many of his skills are not class skills for the bard actually has less impact than I thought.


The Organ Grinder

Timeline
713 BC: The Organ Grinder is born in Nova Vaasa in the Equaar tribe of the Kaldresh Tasque.
741 BC: The tribe that the Organ Grinder is part of is tasked with trading some of their dogs to a minor noble. The Organ Grinder refuses to part with the animals because of the noble’s horrible treatment of his own stock and the resulting trouble caused for the tribe, coupled with going against the Captain’s orders causes the tribe to expel him.
747 BC: The Organ Grinder is taken in by Carnival.
760 BC: Present Day.

Base Stats
(2E stats 16,12,15,13,16,10)
Str 15, Dex 11, Con 14, Int 13, Wis 13, Cha 11 (High Fantasy)
Racial +4 Wis, +2 Cha
Leveling +1 Con
Aging Middle Aged (-1 physical +1 mental)
Str 14, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 18, Cha 14
Favored Class + Skill Ranks

760 BC (Current day stats)
CR 5; XP 1,600
Vistani (Equaar) Bard (Animal Friend) 6
NG Medium Humanoid (Vistani)
Init +0; Senses Perception +13

Defense
AC 10, touch 10, flat-footed 10 (+4 Armor if worn)
HP 42 (6d8+12)
Fort +4, Ref +5, Will +9

Offense
Speed 30 ft.
Melee MW Mithral Dagger +7 (1d4+2, 19-20)
Spell-Like Abilities
Constant – Detect Magic
At Will – Tracking Mark, Calm Animals, Ill Omen, Spark (touch only), Speak with animals (cats and dogs only)
1/day Bestow Curse, Charm Animal, Locate Creature (sympathetic via touched object only)

Bard spells (CL 6th, save DC = 12 + spell level)
Every bard spell has a verbal component, the Organ Grinder usually substitutes his Organ playing for this, but he sometimes also whistles, taps or snaps short rythms.
At will: know direction, lullaby, mending, prestidigitation, resistance, unwitting ally
4/day: invigorate, read weather, summon minor monster, summon nature's ally I
3/day: animal messenger, animal trance, summon nature's ally II, wartrain mount

Statistics
Str 14, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 18, Cha 14
Base Atk +4, CMB +6, CMD 16
Feats Animal Affinity, Skill Focus (Handle Animal), Spellsong, Voice of Wrath
Skills
Appraise +11, Bluff +5, Craft(clockwork) +5, Diplomacy +5 (or +11 with versatile performance), Handle Animal +15 (+19 for cats & dogs), Heal +10, Intimidate +5 (or +11 with versatile performance), Knowledge (Nature) +11, Perception +13, Perform (Keyboard) +11, Ride +8, Sense Motive +15, Survival +12
Languages Patterna, Vassi, Balok, Skurra
SQ Animal Friend (cats, dogs), Bardic Knowledge , Bardic Performance (countersong, distraction, soothing performance, attract rats, inspire courage +2), Lore Master, Mist Navigation, Moon Madness, Nature's Speaker, Versatile Performance (keyboard, percussion).

Equipment
MW Mithral Dagger, Studded Leather +1 (rarely worn), Potions (Cure Light Wounds x5, Detect Poison x4), Oil of Purify Food & Drink x4





Animal Friend(ex): The Organ Grinder gains a +4 bonus on Handle Animal checks to influence animals of his chosen kind. Animals of this kind have a starting attitude of at least “indifferent” toward the bard and never attack him unless he attacks them first.

Animal companions and magically controlled animals of the bard’s chosen kind can be directed to attack the bard if the controlling creature wins an opposed Charisma check against the bard (this check can be made once per round until it succeeds, after which no further checks are needed). Supernatural versions of animals (such as animals with the fiendish template) can attempt an opposed Charisma check against the bard with a +4 bonus on its roll to overcome this hesitation. This ability has no effect on creatures other than animals.

Attract Rats: At 6th level, the animal speaker can use bardic performance to summon 1d3 rat swarms; they remain as long as he continues performing.

Soothing Performance: At 3rd level, an animal speaker can use bardic performance to influence animals. This works like the druid ability wild empathy, except he expends 1 round of bardic performance and makes a Perform check. If the bard already has wild empathy from another class, he adds the class levels that provide wild empathy to the result of his Perform check to influence an animal.



For the creeplings the handle animal rules, specifically tricks, and animal feats should be used to make interesting varied animals. The Organ Grinder can teach an animal tricks quite easily. And of course a creepling template would be very cool.


Also I just noticed the hidden speech which might be appropriate for all the skurra to have (perhaps as an effect of the mask) to communicate silently.
Last edited by The Giamarga on Wed Jan 29, 2014 3:52 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Carnival in Pathfinder

Post by Nemesio »

Well. I was overcome by curiosity and I looked at VRGttV and I reread the object reading ability, and your version is spot on... ;)
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Re: Carnival in Pathfinder

Post by The Giamarga »

See. I also found animal trance a bit redundant with calm animal and like the tracking spell much better.
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Re: Carnival in Pathfinder

Post by Nemesio »

Yah. I see your point. I don't know if it is any less redundant or unbalanced than locate creature in addition to multiple tracking bonuses, but it is a very cool spell and the VRGttV definitely makes a point of saying what great trackers they are...so I'm inclined to agree with you. ;)
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Re: Carnival in Pathfinder

Post by The Giamarga »

So pending a creepling template and some discussion about the two versions of the Organ Grinder we're almost done with the Skurra.

Next up: the Fates Three.

This old thread about the Hallowed Witch prestige class and circle casting might offer some help. I would very much like to hear some input about a PF conversion of this strange 2e and 3e mechanic esp. for the possibility if circle casting with no spellcaster as a member.

The first of the Fates is a Ftr2 in 2e. I would let her remain a fighter (lore warden) or maybe even make her a swashbuckler and not make her an expert 4, though both could work well.
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Re: Carnival in Pathfinder

Post by Mortavius »

Yeah, I've really been wrestling with what to do with the Fates Three. I'll spend some more time on it tonight.
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Re: Carnival in Pathfinder

Post by Ryan Naylor »

Remember that Carnival came out before VRGttW, so the rules regarding Halan witches weren't set in stone. Also remember that what worked in 2e doesn't necessarily fit for 3e or Pathfinder.

I think the simplest way to deal with them is to make into (or multiclass them into) the witch class. Give them the coven hex as their first hex, so when they're together, they get a caster level boost. If you want, you could replace charm person and suggestion from their evil eye SLAs with seek thoughts, or one of those spells for detect thoughts (I prefer seek thoughts, given it's about hidden truths, not surface thoughts, although neither spell really works exactly correctly - but there you go), and get coven to enhance that.

Perhaps that's how all Vistani Halan witches work - their coven enhances their evil eye as well as their spells?

This is my preferred option, because it works more or less within the rules as is. Special cases tend to lead to problems with balance.



If that doesn't work for you, I'd make it a feat. I warn you now, this example is completely off the top of my head and may not be balanced.


Coven

You are able to summon spell-like abilities when in the company of others with this feat.

Effect: You are able to form covens, able to cast spells. Each coven can choose a spell to cast as a spell-like ability from the Druid or Sorcerer lists each day. Choosing the spell requires a bonding ritual of 15 min during which all those who are to be members of the coven must be present. You may choose a spell of level equal to the number of members of the coven. The caster level is equal to the Wisdom bonus of the character with the highest Wisdom, plus 1 per extra participant. Your coven must have a minimum caster level equal to 2 x spell level. Casting the spell-like ability requires a full-round action from each member of the coven (unless the spell normally has a longer casting time), and for each member to be within 30 ft of at least 1 other member. You can have a minimum of 3 and a maximum of 13 coven members.

You count as a hag or a witch with the coven hex for the purposes of joining their covens.




It's sufficiently different to the coven hex not to invalidate Extra Hex (coven) as a feat. Minor Magic is of lower level, but has fewer conditions on casting it. And it lets the Fates Three cast seek thoughts (3rd level spell) with some caster level or other.


How do those two options look?
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Re: Carnival in Pathfinder

Post by Mortavius »

Ryan Naylor wrote:How do those two options look?
*In the voice of Chris from Family Guy"

GET OUT OF MY HEAD!

Seriously Ryan, you almost came up with exactly everything I was thinking of. I was considering giving them each a level of Witch, and each one the "Coven" hex. But I figured their coven hex would work differently; if they each spent a standard action in a round, they could duplicate the effects of a Seek Thoughts spell, but only in regards to thoughts the target actually wants to conceal.
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Re: Carnival in Pathfinder

Post by Ryan Naylor »

That also sounds fine to me.
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Re: Carnival in Pathfinder

Post by The Giamarga »

Mortavius wrote:
Ryan Naylor wrote:How do those two options look?
*In the voice of Chris from Family Guy"

GET OUT OF MY HEAD!

Seriously Ryan, you almost came up with exactly everything I was thinking of. I was considering giving them each a level of Witch, and each one the "Coven" hex. But I figured their coven hex would work differently; if they each spent a standard action in a round, they could duplicate the effects of a Seek Thoughts spell, but only in regards to thoughts the target actually wants to conceal.
So mechanically why not make it a new hex ? Halan Coven Casting mayhap ? Do you mean that the hex only works for the ESP ability? I would perhaps make the hex a bit more verstatile and modelled after the feat above, or the old halan coven casting.
Last edited by The Giamarga on Thu Jan 30, 2014 7:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Carnival in Pathfinder

Post by The Giamarga »

Ryan Naylor wrote:If that doesn't work for you, I'd make it a feat. I warn you now, this example is completely off the top of my head and may not be balanced.


Coven

You are able to summon spell-like abilities when in the company of others with this feat.

Effect: You are able to form covens, able to cast spells. Each coven can choose a spell to cast as a spell-like ability from the Druid or Sorcerer lists each day. Choosing the spell requires a bonding ritual of 15 min during which all those who are to be members of the coven must be present. You may choose a spell of level equal to the number of members of the coven. The caster level is equal to the Wisdom bonus of the character with the highest Wisdom, plus 1 per extra participant. Your coven must have a minimum caster level equal to 2 x spell level. Casting the spell-like ability requires a full-round action from each member of the coven (unless the spell normally has a longer casting time), and for each member to be within 30 ft of at least 1 other member. You can have a minimum of 3 and a maximum of 13 coven members.

You count as a hag or a witch with the coven hex for the purposes of joining their covens.


It's sufficiently different to the coven hex not to invalidate Extra Hex (coven) as a feat. Minor Magic is of lower level, but has fewer conditions on casting it. And it lets the Fates Three cast seek thoughts (3rd level spell) with some caster level or other.

How do those two options look?
Surely Witch spells need to be included. The main difference to the hex and minor magic is the versatility in spell choice. But perhaps the range of spells needs to be narrowed down a bit.

Also who is counted as the casterneeds to be clarified. The Fates' Act seems to imply that they all know the secret thoughts so all of them get the spell effect. But maybe only one of them know the thoughs and communicates them to the others.

Why is the caster level tied to Wisdom and not Intelligence (or Charisma) ?
Your coven must have a minimum caster level equal to 2 x spell level.
This would mean a caster level of 18 is needed for 9th level spells, a coven of 13 members could do it only if one member had WIS 22 for a +6 bonus +12 for the extra participants. OTOH a coven of 3 can cast a first level spell with all of them having Wisdom 10, where they'd normally not be able to cast a spell of such level at all. I think the primary stat >= 10 +spell level is always a prerequisite of spellcasting.
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Re: Carnival in Pathfinder

Post by Mortavius »

The Giamarga wrote:
Mortavius wrote:
Ryan Naylor wrote:How do those two options look?
*In the voice of Chris from Family Guy"

GET OUT OF MY HEAD!

Seriously Ryan, you almost came up with exactly everything I was thinking of. I was considering giving them each a level of Witch, and each one the "Coven" hex. But I figured their coven hex would work differently; if they each spent a standard action in a round, they could duplicate the effects of a Seek Thoughts spell, but only in regards to thoughts the target actually wants to conceal.
So mechanically why not make it a new hex ? Halan Coven Casting mayhap ? Do you mean that the hex only works for the ESP ability? I would perhaps make the hex a bit more versatile and modeled after the feat above, or the old halan coven casting.
That's definitely a good suggestion Giamarga. I just wasn't going to put that much thought into it. Because these are NPCs, I don't mind fudging the rules now and then, and I was basically looking at creating a balanced system for how they were going to use it. I wasn't really looking at furthering it beyond their use (higher levels, different spells, etc.).

Kind of like Ryan suggested, I'm leery of creating a whole new system, especially for an NPC effect. There can easily be a lot of unforeseen balance issues that crop up with that, and at the end of the day I'm really just focusing on NPCs right now, not PC prestige classes or effects.

As an aside, I've been meaning to say that your version of the Organ Grinder is growing on me. I'm going to take another look at it, and it might be the way to go.
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Re: Carnival in Pathfinder

Post by Mortavius »

Well Giamarga, thank you for sticking with your convictions on the Organ Grinder. It took some time, but you've convinced me.

I went back and re-did the NPC. There are a few changes from your version Giamarga. First off, he's one level lower. This is due to NPCs not getting as much XP towards PC classes as NPC ones. Personally, I don't think it makes any difference.

I used the suggested spell-like abilities for Equaar that you and Nemesio proposed.

I also used the feats you suggested; I'm chiding myself for not seeing Animal Affinity before. And I like Spellsong in there. Let's him cast a few spells without being seen as doing so.

However, I kept his skill set the same. I still have a hard time reconciling someone severely introverted with someone investing ranks in Diplomacy or Intimidate. He can use Versatile Performance for those skills if he needs to, but I imagine that he probably avoids those situations.

Finally, I prefer to treat the Skurra sign-language as just a language. I don't see the need to work it in with the Bluff skill; suddenly you're making checks just to communicate. To me, it smacks very much of 2E; where there were situations where you were making checks just to see if you got a bonus or penalty on another check you had to make. I hate all that dice-rolling. I'm more in favour of just saying that Skurra is a language that can be taught (as it says in Carnival) and those who can speak it do so, and those who can't, can't.
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Re: Carnival in Pathfinder

Post by The Giamarga »

I also noted a few more skills in which he possesses no ranks, but which he still might use:
He has no ranks in Bluff, Intimidate or Diplomacy at all. I just noted down the bonus from class skill and attribute. I just wanted to note them down and include his skill modifier when using versatile performance. I can easily imagine his playing creating an intimidating (demoralize or influence attitude use of intimidate) or soothing (diplomacy use to change the initial attitudes) athmosphere for the Georges. It's just that his eerie music and Act gets under our skin.

Also note that I shifted his attributes a bit, so the skill modifiers and saves are different from your build.

As for the Skurra language, even if treated as a language, they can still try to use it in a hidden way, i.e. pass hidden message.
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