The War in the Core

[jamesfirecat]

What you're saying makes sense , Nathan is unlikely to be lured off his boat anywhere that Alfred might try to confront him,ie. Verbrek so the fight wouldn't give Alfred anything that he wanted from it .

So, for the moment, let's say the fight doesn't happen yet. Nathan is just going to take the opportunity to trade arms and supplies to whoever will pay. IIRC he is stuck on the Musarde river system, which, I think, still gives him access to most of the south and the west as far up as Lamordia (I could be wrong about that) so, who does that leave for him to trade with?

Both sets of Invidians would probably require arms, Malochio to supply his mercenaries, and Gabby to keep her rebellion going

Kartakass would likewise need arms for their KEF but would Lukas and Nathan be able to trade? Or would Lukas send only humans to trade with the werewolf?

Once Lamordia invades Dementlieu til peace is declared and an accommodation reached with the remaining Towers , I would assume that the supply of guns would stop. I would further assume that when Falkovnia falls to Richemulot the supply of grain would likewise be interrupted .

I'm thinking that a canny businessman like Nathan has planned for this, and has been stockpiling both grain and guns ready to control the marketplace. So, his warehouses up and down the river, will be loaded with supplies, supplies that Alfred might think would be better used to fuel his own ambitions.(and there's something about primatives in warpaint wielding seized guns that appeals)

Given that the bulk of Nathan's business interests are within Verbrek, they would probably be quite easy for Verbrekan raiders to access , plus from Alfred's point of view, every raid is a prick against his father. So the Verbrekan raids not only fuel Alfred's expansionism, but starve the south of resources. When Alfred decides to seize Nathan's assets in Invidia , this would be the point where Nathan decides enough is enough and heads into Verbrek to face his son.

I find it hard to believe that Alfred would want to/would order his men to lower themselves to the level of humans by using guns.

His werewolves don't even use properly sized swords or bows, the Wolf God wants werewolves to hunt/fight with tooth and claw!

Also remember that werewolves need to eat reasonably fresh meat (if the Van Richten guide is accurate), so seizing a shipment of grain does Alfred roughly as much good as seizing a huge collection of grass. In theory he could trade it to somebody for meat, but the words "Afred Timothy" and "trade" don't exactly get along together. Trading is probably in point of fact a perfect example of everything Alfred hates about his father/his way of life.

So Alfred might raid his father's supplies as a way to say "screw you dad" but unless those supplies are well preserved meat, he's more likely to use them to feed some kind of symbolic huge bonfire than he is to use them to fuel his army.

[Manofevil]

or Alfred could just burn the full warehouses to the ground.

[thekristhomas]

Ha, yeah, I wasn't suggesting they keep the grain, but I would like to make an argument for them keeping the guns, if I may

Firstly, the image of wolf-men, with feathers in their hair and war-paint, brandishing fire-arms is freaking awesome! If I could make a convincing case for them riding horses I would

Secondly, Alfred is a hypocrite and a coward, yes he talks a good wolf philosophy, but when he comes down to it he's more human than he'd admit, and the other werewolves know it. Either he fears for his own position and decides to control the guns lest they be used against him, or he lacks faith that his troops will be able to make territorial gains without them.

I think, ultimately, Alfred is a poor fit as leader of his people, while many respect/fear his priestly powers, just as many think it unnatural and "humanish". He is not a natural Alpha, unlike his father, and so must use his intelligence and manipulate others through fear and superstition, again too human.

I think he thinks war will solidify his rule, unify his people, but their victories will make them fat and their defeats will make them craven. The longer the war goes on for the more will abandon the primitive lifestyle for the greater ease and greater security of life as a sheepskinner. Also, the longer he wages true war, rather than just raids, the more he alienates the primals and primitives, which are his base.

I think a good result might be for Alfred to become isolated, alienated and abandoned by the rest of werewolf society, maybe becoming something like a holy hermit in the ruins of Castle Loupet, attempting to commune with the Wolf God, but instead being harangued by the ghosts of Bakholis and Gabrielle Aderre. That might well happen if Alfred finally managed to stage a confrontation with Nathan, possibly at the dog fight house, and then lost, his people might just abandon his crusade and return to the forest, never again to recognize a single Alpha of Alphas (or whatever the boss of werewolves is called)

[thekristhomas]

and even if I don't get to keep the guns I just want to say, that at some point on at least one of the raids at least one werewolf in man-wolf form is going to hold a rifle above his head and howl in victory, and that is going to be the image that sells this war to the public

[jamesfirecat]

Ha, yeah, I wasn't suggesting they keep the grain, but I would like to make an argument for them keeping the guns, if I may

Firstly, the image of wolf-men, with feathers in their hair and war-paint, brandishing fire-arms is freaking awesome! If I could make a convincing case for them riding horses I would

Secondly, Alfred is a hypocrite and a coward, yes he talks a good wolf philosophy, but when he comes down to it he's more human than he'd admit, and the other werewolves know it. Either he fears for his own position and decides to control the guns lest they be used against him, or he lacks faith that his troops will be able to make territorial gains without them.

I think, ultimately, Alfred is a poor fit as leader of his people, while many respect/fear his priestly powers, just as many think it unnatural and "humanish". He is not a natural Alpha, unlike his father, and so must use his intelligence and manipulate others through fear and superstition, again too human.

I think he thinks war will solidify his rule, unify his people, but their victories will make them fat and their defeats will make them craven. The longer the war goes on for the more will abandon the primitive lifestyle for the greater ease and greater security of life as a sheepskinner. Also, the longer he wages true war, rather than just raids, the more he alienates the primals and primitives, which are his base.

I think a good result might be for Alfred to become isolated, alienated and abandoned by the rest of werewolf society, maybe becoming something like a holy hermit in the ruins of Castle Loupet, attempting to commune with the Wolf God, but instead being harangued by the ghosts of Bakholis and Gabrielle Aderre. That might well happen if Alfred finally managed to stage a confrontation with Nathan, possibly at the dog fight house, and then lost, his people might just abandon his crusade and return to the forest, never again to recognize a single Alpha of Alphas (or whatever the boss of werewolves is called)

Sorry, I'm still not buying it.

Alfred is a hypocrite in regards to his own feelings, his own desires, his own thought processes, the things that ended up shaping the Wolf God, but I've always seen him as being dreadfully earnest about those teachings themselves, he walks the walks as well as talks the talks, you hunt with your claws and jaws, using tools is what humans do because they are weak and lack such things.

I just can't see/it does not feel true to my character to imagine Alfred giving the order for his werewolves to use guns.

I even say this as someone who has played their fair share of Werewolf the Apocalypse where there's quite a lot of "werewolves with guns" and have even had a fight break down like this....

Black Spiral Dancer: (Evil Werewolf) I WILL OFFER YOUR SPIRIT TO THE WYRM! (Claws begin to drip with some kind of ominous black liquid)

My character: No. (Fires double barreled shotgun with it's trigger guard removed (so it can be fired by a 9 foot tall werewolf) loaded with silver slugs for 16 dice aggravated damage no defense attack, blows Black Spiral Dancer across the room blasting a huge hole in its midsection)


I get the appeal of werewolves with guns, it just that it works for Nathan, it would even work for Harkan, but it doesn't work for Alfred because he's all about the purity of the wolf spirit to the point where I don't recall his wolves even using werewolf versions of human tools (swords, bows) to use a weapon that relies entirely on chemical forces as opposed to your own physical power (a gun as opposed to a bow or sword) is heretical to everything he teaches.

If you want to have Alfred's control of Verbrek fall apart and him loose his position as Alpha wolf have him grab a gun during his fight with Nathan out of desperation.


I think the problem the two of us have/the reason that we tend to disagree a lot is that it sometimes feels to me like you've got a checklist of things you want to happen... then try to twist and turn the characters/events to figure out how to make those things happen, rather than trying to figure out what sort of events would flow naturally from the established characters and their personalities.

I'm not trying to be insulting when I say that/not sure of a more tactful way to describe it, it is just the feeling that I get during this conversation and I feel it is worth noting, if you/anyone else feels I should delete this part of the post/you find it insulting or unjustified let me know...

[thekristhomas]

I think the problem the two of us have/the reason that we tend to disagree a lot is that it sometimes feels to me like you've got a checklist of things you want to happen... then try to twist and turn the characters/events to figure out how to make those things happen, rather than trying to figure out what sort of events would flow naturally from the established characters and their personalities.

I'm not trying to be insulting when I say that/not sure of a more tactful way to describe it, it is just the feeling that I get during this conversation and I feel it is worth noting, if you/anyone else feels I should delete this part of the post/you find it insulting or unjustified let me know...

Oh hey, I don't find that insulting, yeah there's definitely some of that going on, there's no list, but if I get an idea or an image in my head that I think is cool, then I do try and wiggle things to make that happen.

But I need to be called out on when I push it too far, particularly for this thread, I want the canon characters to behave in a way that most people would find believable and consistent, so rely on you and others to say "Gabby wouldn't do that" or "That doesn't benefit Strahd" because often I've become too focused on the goal, so I appreciate it.

Also, I'm not "married" to any idea or map, some I like and would use IMC regardless, but my campaigns versions of a lot of characters are already quite different from canon (my Azalin acts a lot like the Doctor from Dr Who, if you can believe that) and my head canon can creep in.

So please, don't get frustrated with me, I'm really enjoying this thread, and your contribution to it, and I want to be disagreed with

[jamesfirecat]

Oh hey, I don't find that insulting, yeah there's definitely some of that going on, there's no list, but if I get an idea or an image in my head that I think is cool, then I do try and wiggle things to make that happen.

But I need to be called out on when I push it too far, particularly for this thread, I want the canon characters to behave in a way that most people would find believable and consistent, so rely on you and others to say "Gabby wouldn't do that" or "That doesn't benefit Strahd" because often I've become too focused on the goal, so I appreciate it.

Also, I'm not "married" to any idea or map, some I like and would use IMC regardless, but my campaigns versions of a lot of characters are already quite different from canon (my Azalin acts a lot like the Doctor from Dr Who, if you can believe that) and my head canon can creep in.

So please, don't get frustrated with me, I'm really enjoying this thread, and your contribution to it, and I want to be disagreed with

Thanks for your skill at taking constructive criticism in the spirit with which it is offered and I'm glad to know that you're findin gmy feedback useful.

[thekristhomas]

OK so if Alfred is torching the warehouses, guns and all, does that alienate the sheepskinners (who after all, know how much money they were worth)? Granted they've never been solid for Alfred, but IIRC they make up a larger portion of Verbrek than the primals and primitives combined, so it wouldn't take Alfred's approval to fall far amongst them for it to become a problem for him.

One of the things I like about how Verbrek is set up, is the precarious nature of Alfred's leadership. Any move he makes potentially isolates him from one or more of the groups of werewolves. If he takes Castle Loupet, it might enhance his rep amongst the sheepskinners, but it will make him look human to the primals, if he burns the warehouses, it impresses the primitives but annoys the sheepskinners. The war was meant to prove the truth of primitivism, instead it shows the sense of human shaped warfare.

Something I imagine happening is this, Verbrekan primitivist raiders fall upon an isolated Invidian village, they slaughter the inhabitants and feast. They feast for quite a while, assuming that the party is quite small, the village might produce enough meat to last more than a week. Eventually though the food will run out and they'll move on, but before they do, a merchant or drover arrives in the village, and they eat him (and maybe his sheep) stay in town a bit longer, someone else shows up. Before you know it, without really deciding to, those primitives are starting to live more like sheepskinners, getting fat and forgetting the "old ways". So the longer the war goes on, the more empty villages are created, the more "environmental niches" there are for sheepskinners to fill, the less influence Alfred and his primitives have.

[jamesfirecat]

OK so if Alfred is torching the warehouses, guns and all, does that alienate the sheepskinners (who after all, know how much money they were worth)? Granted they've never been solid for Alfred, but IIRC they make up a larger portion of Verbrek than the primals and primitives combined, so it wouldn't take Alfred's approval to fall far amongst them for it to become a problem for him.

One of the things I like about how Verbrek is set up, is the precarious nature of Alfred's leadership. Any move he makes potentially isolates him from one or more of the groups of werewolves. If he takes Castle Loupet, it might enhance his rep amongst the sheepskinners, but it will make him look human to the primals, if he burns the warehouses, it impresses the primitives but annoys the sheepskinners. The war was meant to prove the truth of primitivism, instead it shows the sense of human shaped warfare.

Something I imagine happening is this, Verbrekan primitivist raiders fall upon an isolated Invidian village, they slaughter the inhabitants and feast. They feast for quite a while, assuming that the party is quite small, the village might produce enough meat to last more than a week. Eventually though the food will run out and they'll move on, but before they do, a merchant or drover arrives in the village, and they eat him (and maybe his sheep) stay in town a bit longer, someone else shows up. Before you know it, without really deciding to, those primitives are starting to live more like sheepskinners, getting fat and forgetting the "old ways". So the longer the war goes on, the more empty villages are created, the more "environmental niches" there are for sheepskinners to fill, the less influence Alfred and his primitives have.

I think it bothers some of the sheepskinners, but even the sheepskinners will have factions among themselves some of which actually believe in money and trading as important (the "Nathan" faction if you will) and some of which just want to spend time living as humans so as to more easily claim their prey (why need to jump over the walls if I can be invited inside?) and so don't care about money.

That said, just about all of this makes sense, remember the model of "Asylum" from Gaz IV shows pretty much the ultimate evolution (or end point) of the Sheepskinner ideology where you don't just live among humans, you've completely and utterly replaced them.

[Dark Angel]

OK so if Alfred is torching the warehouses, guns and all, does that alienate the sheepskinners (who after all, know how much money they were worth)? Granted they've never been solid for Alfred, but IIRC they make up a larger portion of Verbrek than the primals and primitives combined, so it wouldn't take Alfred's approval to fall far amongst them for it to become a problem for him.

One of the things I like about how Verbrek is set up, is the precarious nature of Alfred's leadership. Any move he makes potentially isolates him from one or more of the groups of werewolves. If he takes Castle Loupet, it might enhance his rep amongst the sheepskinners, but it will make him look human to the primals, if he burns the warehouses, it impresses the primitives but annoys the sheepskinners. The war was meant to prove the truth of primitivism, instead it shows the sense of human shaped warfare.

Something I imagine happening is this, Verbrekan primitivist raiders fall upon an isolated Invidian village, they slaughter the inhabitants and feast. They feast for quite a while, assuming that the party is quite small, the village might produce enough meat to last more than a week. Eventually though the food will run out and they'll move on, but before they do, a merchant or drover arrives in the village, and they eat him (and maybe his sheep) stay in town a bit longer, someone else shows up. Before you know it, without really deciding to, those primitives are starting to live more like sheepskinners, getting fat and forgetting the "old ways". So the longer the war goes on, the more empty villages are created, the more "environmental niches" there are for sheepskinners to fill, the less influence Alfred and his primitives have.

Take this with a grain of salt (and the fact that I am not as well versed in Verbrek or Young Timothy as well as other places), but would Alfred have the political acumen to sway both sides? Yeah the burning of the warehouses may be an issue, but if he slipped in several sheepskinners (or other groups that can keep a secret, maybe even alerting humans enough to take their own stock out and then ambushing them and gaining the weapons?) before torching the places to win over the more feral of his 'peoples'? Taking new territory without focusing on the castle itself and then working from there. "We need more land!" "We need to remove the threats before us!" "We need to remove those hiding in the castle!" and so on. Spinning the things to play up the goals of each group (like suggesting some may want to occupy the keep and maintain it just in case while others can roam the area around it keeping all the newly conquered lands safe for example) would take a very charismatic and intelligent person. In 2nd edition he is really neither, being more wise than anything and working the religious zeal angle more than the Emperor Palpatine angle. Could be doomed to fail eventually? Probably? Would that lead to his ultimate downfall and destroy any gains he and his followers made? Probably.

[thekristhomas]

OK so if Alfred is torching the warehouses, guns and all, does that alienate the sheepskinners (who after all, know how much money they were worth)? Granted they've never been solid for Alfred, but IIRC they make up a larger portion of Verbrek than the primals and primitives combined, so it wouldn't take Alfred's approval to fall far amongst them for it to become a problem for him.

One of the things I like about how Verbrek is set up, is the precarious nature of Alfred's leadership. Any move he makes potentially isolates him from one or more of the groups of werewolves. If he takes Castle Loupet, it might enhance his rep amongst the sheepskinners, but it will make him look human to the primals, if he burns the warehouses, it impresses the primitives but annoys the sheepskinners. The war was meant to prove the truth of primitivism, instead it shows the sense of human shaped warfare.

Something I imagine happening is this, Verbrekan primitivist raiders fall upon an isolated Invidian village, they slaughter the inhabitants and feast. They feast for quite a while, assuming that the party is quite small, the village might produce enough meat to last more than a week. Eventually though the food will run out and they'll move on, but before they do, a merchant or drover arrives in the village, and they eat him (and maybe his sheep) stay in town a bit longer, someone else shows up. Before you know it, without really deciding to, those primitives are starting to live more like sheepskinners, getting fat and forgetting the "old ways". So the longer the war goes on, the more empty villages are created, the more "environmental niches" there are for sheepskinners to fill, the less influence Alfred and his primitives have.

Take this with a grain of salt (and the fact that I am not as well versed in Verbrek or Young Timothy as well as other places), but would Alfred have the political acumen to sway both sides? Yeah the burning of the warehouses may be an issue, but if he slipped in several sheepskinners (or other groups that can keep a secret, maybe even alerting humans enough to take their own stock out and then ambushing them and gaining the weapons?) before torching the places to win over the more feral of his 'peoples'? Taking new territory without focusing on the castle itself and then working from there. "We need more land!" "We need to remove the threats before us!" "We need to remove those hiding in the castle!" and so on. Spinning the things to play up the goals of each group (like suggesting some may want to occupy the keep and maintain it just in case while others can roam the area around it keeping all the newly conquered lands safe for example) would take a very charismatic and intelligent person. In 2nd edition he is really neither, being more wise than anything and working the religious zeal angle more than the Emperor Palpatine angle. Could be doomed to fail eventually? Probably? Would that lead to his ultimate downfall and destroy any gains he and his followers made? Probably.

That's kinda what I was thinking he was trying to do, capture Karina and the castle to improve his rep with the sheep skinners, raid freely to improve his rep with the stone breakers. I think jamesfirecat is right though, Alfred is too much of a "true believer" to play both sides in that way. As long as they accept his authority, I don't think Alfred is interested in sheep skinners approval, he wants to persuade them of the truth of his philosophy (again a really human thing to want to do)

I think he would still raid Nathan's warehouses, just to annoy his dad, and still invade western Invidia, because the opportunity is there, but his justifications are more likely to be the religious zeal angle, "Now is the time to prove the Wolf God's might!" etc, and an acceptance that the sheepskinners of Alyssum will make gains in the south and the stonebreakers will just raid in the North.

I think Nathan would delay a confrontation as long as possible, simply because he fears that if he kills Alfred, even by accident, he may well become entrapped into becoming a darklord again. I think though, that once Alfred's attacks against his interests begin to reach outside Verbrek, and once Gabby is dead and Alfred can actually go to Karina, I think that would push Nathan to act. If Nathan wins, even if Alfred manages to silence witnesses, I would imagine a stalling of Verbrekan expansion at that point

[thekristhomas]

So just to recap on the Verbrekan situation

Nathan Timothy is selling guns to the south & west core, aware that the coming wars will interrupt his supply he stockpiles guns & grain in his warehouses along the Musarde, expecting to be able to gouge his customers once they are desperate.

Alfred Timothy becomes aware of the volume of stock held at his father's warehouses, hoping to anger his father into confrontation, Alfred orders his stone breaker followers to raid the warehouses in Verbrek, they burn them to the ground (which as they were munition stockpiles would be quite dramatic)

Of all of Nathan's warehouse in Verbrek, only the goods from Alyssum survive, the sheepskinners who live there hid the guns and grain and burnt the warehouse (with one barrel of gunpowder in it just in case a primitive is watching from the woods)

Invidia invades Borca, Falkovnia invades Richemulot, Lamordia invades Dementlieu, the supply of guns ceases

Emboldened by the absence of Invidian troops, Alfred sends Verbrekan raidng parties into Invidia

Gabby asks Lukas for help, he sends wolfweres

The presence of wolfweres so close to Verbrekan territory infuriates Alfred, he orders a full scale invasion of Invidia

Sheepskinners from Alyssum take up the call, marching on Karina, which surrenders quickly, persuaded as much by the bribes of cash and grain as by the shiny new guns wielded by the Verbrekans

Gabby leads Invidian/Gundarakite/Kartakan force to Curricolo

Alfred sends a large force of stonebreakers against her, perhaps inspired by the wolf god he has each daub their fur with lime, to represent him in the coming battle, some more devout followers mix metal filings into their warpaint to more complete the homage

Gabby dies at Curriculo, Invidia ceases to be a domain and it's borders go into flux

Realising he can step over his former boundaries Alfred enters the former Invidia

Sensing something similar, so does Harkon Lukas

Enough is enough for Nathan Timothy, while it was never about the money, Alfred's raids have still nearly bankrupted his father. The long anticipated confrontation happens in Bog Street, Karina.

What happened that night is a topic of some speculation, as all the witnesses failed to survive the night save Nathan and Alfred themselves, and they're not saying.

However, most believe Alfred to have been roundly beaten and humiliated to the point where he killed the witnesses, the loss of face is great

The invasion stalls, the stonebreakers abandon Curriculo and return to Verbrek and the Vulpwood, the sheep skinners of Alyssum appoint several of their number to Karina's new town council, who are generally regarded as saviours once news of Curriculo reaches town

Harkon Lukas occupies Castle Hunedora, prepared to defend his newly won territory

Abandoned by all but his most insanely devout followers, Alfred occupies Castle Loupet, preparing for the wolfwere onslaught

As both darklords have spent their already scarce resources on the war thus far and neither have gained increased resources through their territorial gains, a stalemate is reached, and the wolfman and the manwolf glare at each other from their respective castles

OK I get there's some new stuff in there, feel free to critique, but I like how this turns out for each DL

Alfred has won the war, but lost his position, he's darklord over a larger territory, but only really rules in Castle Loupet

Nathan Timothy won the fight, but lost his business (it was never about the money, but his pride)

Harkon Lukas ends up in Hunedora, a castle that, now that both Gundarak and Invidia have ceased to be, defends nowhere, having gained only a stretch of river, Lowenturm and Valetta, villages that are so small and spaced out as to make any attempt to integrate them with Kartakass pointless, which I think fits well with his curse to never be the lord of a respected nation

[jamesfirecat]

Nathan Timothy won the fight, but lost his business (it was never about the money, but his pride)

All the rest of this is good, just to clarify this one point, he lost his profits from his initial plan/had to break out some of the red ink, he could still do business if he wants to,rebuild but now that the war is winding down there aren't huge profit margins to be made so he probably wont.

Basically just want to draw a line between "he suffered a setback" and "he'd never be able to do business again even if he wanted to" and be clear I favor the former since your language is a little ambiguous.

[Mistmaster]

Nathan Timothy won the fight, but lost his business (it was never about the money, but his pride)

All the rest of this is good, just to clarify this one point, he lost his profits from his initial plan/had to break out some of the red ink, he could still do business if he wants to,rebuild but now that the war is winding down there aren't huge profit margins to be made so he probably wont.

Basically just want to draw a line between "he suffered a setback" and "he'd never be able to do business again even if he wanted to" and be clear I favor the former since your language is a little ambiguous.

His biggest asset, his wheelboat, can't be destroyed, as it is a part of his curse, so, no he is not completly bankrupted.

[thekristhomas]

Nathan Timothy won the fight, but lost his business (it was never about the money, but his pride)

All the rest of this is good, just to clarify this one point, he lost his profits from his initial plan/had to break out some of the red ink, he could still do business if he wants to,rebuild but now that the war is winding down there aren't huge profit margins to be made so he probably wont.

Basically just want to draw a line between "he suffered a setback" and "he'd never be able to do business again even if he wanted to" and be clear I favor the former since your language is a little ambiguous.

His biggest asset, his wheelboat, can't be destroyed, as it is a part of his curse, so, no he is not completly bankrupted.

Yeah, to be clear, his warehouses in Verbrek and Invidia have been destroyed, along with their stock, in my version of this scenario, he would have been heavily invested in these, having little liquidity without them, but I doubt that he is indebted to anyone (although if we wanted to extend this scenario further he may have had powerful investors in this particular scheme, off the top of my head Malus Sceleris or the Zherisians might have wanted to cash in, but I can't think of a good reason why they wouldn't have gone it alone) and he still has his boat, so restarting should be a simple enough matter.

To make it really sting (as it is only truly a set back) I would have it that he had invested nearly all of his profits from his years as a darklord into the venture, so the loss represents a wiping away of that time spent, which I expect would bother him more than the actual money.