Gazetteer Metaplot

[Joël of the FoS]

Like I said -- one gamer, long ago, was dead on.

But how about a name, date and location?

Or is he/she still around?

[The Dark One]

We can add about S not being GC Children:

hmmmm..... after all reality wrinkles for half fiends are up to DM, and a "not wanted" problem.


About S
1 - i don't believe she is a clone, its more to be another GC children;

3 - Why S should be clone and not a GC children?

It was actually confirmed by Ryan Naylor on the Kargatane Q&A Thread on the Frat that S was NOT a child of the GC. I know because I made the assumption and he said that that was wrong:

As mentioned earlier in this thread, S is a distinct, if not definite, possibility (to be a child of the Gentleman Caller).

No.

About GC and the Gazzetters:

With all this talk of the Gentleman Caller, I'm surprised no one has mentioned what the GC's creator, Mr. Steve Miller, wrote about the character on his website: http://p075.ezboard.com/fstevemillersba ... =262.topic

After reading "possiblity#2", it seems to me that the GC isn't necessarily after Vistani to father his children, it's just that Gabrielle is a darklord that happens to be half-Vistani (and if you consider the hints in The Evil Eye, the daughter of another darklord).

As reply:

Note that the theories Steve presents have no relation to the direction the Gazetteers were taking, however.

About the importance of the "reality wrinkles":

Meanwhile, if we forget Maloccio's case for a second, would you say half-fiend do get reality wrinkle?

"Clarify reality wrinkles again" is on my to-do list right after "Hammer rusty nails into eye sockets."

About the gazzetters metaplot influence over the demiplane structure:

My overall guess of the culmination of the plan is something that reshapes the entire demiplane. We know it was something that was to bridge the gap between 3rd and 4th editions, they wanted something BIG.

As a note, I'm not particularly sure where you get this from. Not only has the above not been stated, it contradicts some of what has been stated. There's no "we know" here.

About S ilustrations on gaz:

I think there's also one somewhere with her face covered by a veil, but I can't find it.

That's Gaz III. Why is she wearing a veil? I have no idea. (For that matter, why does she consistently wear Dementlieuse fashions in all but Talon's illustration? No idea.)

Personally, however, I didn't like the idea of putting clear illustrations of S in the books to begin with, so the fact that none of those pictures actually resembled her as she'd been described in the text was just an added disappointment. Take that for what it's worth.

[Joël of the FoS]

OK, let's add to the facts that it's been confirmed that S isn't a children of the GCaller.

(a possibility I never took for really serious myself)

Byy the way, I think we should keep Steve Miller out of the people in the know for the S project. He wasn't involved in the planning of it, AFAIK.

Also, John's answer on reality wrinkle was about him being mad about us not learning the mechanics of reality wrinkle. It's OOC in the debate about S

Joël

[The Dark One]

Now defending my 5 appointments:


1 - GC and his children aren't direct linked to the metaplot - definitiv.
Why:
--- Read about the GC scheme on Steve miller website;
--- The reality wrinkle issue, if it were really important, it would disrupt the demiplane fabric duo the power of the reality wrinkle ability - that's isn't the metaplot of the Gazzetter to disrupt the fabric of the plane.
--- Remember, i say AREN'T DIRECT LINKED, it don't mean that they aren't indirect linked to it.

2 - Reality wrinkles have nothing to do with metaplot or ToUD - definitiv.
Why:
--- If reality wrinkle were so important, i believe mr. Mangrum wouldn't give that curious answer.

2 - S isn't a GC children, and neither a azalin clone - definitiv.
Why:
--- See the quote above - express NO for GC children.
--- The clone thing is based on:
---- Azalin never would use one of his sons to a experiment (see King of Dead; Lord of Necropolis);
---- Even with lust/curiosity for knowledge that could link her to Azalin, can link her to Van Richtem as well;
---- Who had a children transformed in a undead? Van Richtem.
---- Azalin do not had time for stupidities, but social nicieties (them why the mask ball in Avernus?); I can't say for sure about Van Richtem (Since the Weathermay twins too don't have time for sutpidities and social nicieties).
---- Roots from Evil and From the Shadow, as i remember, don't have clones involved, beside it would be a "B-film horror movie script" in my eyes.

3 - S is a van Richtem - dread possibility.
--- it is a dread possibility.

4 - ToUD isn't the metaplot - definitiv.



Beside,

now i have seem there is a aparent contradiction between Mangrum view of the Gaz. and Ryan:

This quest (which, knowing Azalin as we do, can only involve an escape attempt from Ravenloft) somehow involves the Gentleman Caller and his children and various dukkars and Vistani outcasts, including the Tribe of Hyskosa who are dedicated to thwarting Azalin's schemes --- RYAN

Escape from the Demiplane of Dread is not part of Azalin's plan. (Which is not to say it doesn't factor into anyone's plans -- there are several movers and shakers here, each acting toward their own ends.) By now, Azalin's figured out that even if he did escape, who's to say his "tormentors" wouldn't just snatch him up again? ---- Mangrum


And:

If S is from Il Aluk why she didn't become a undead after the requiem, or she is already a undead masked be the bracer?

[Matthew L. Martin]

Now defending my 5 appointments:


1 - GC and his children aren't direct linked to the metaplot - definitiv.
Why:
--- Read about the GC scheme on Steve miller website;

Steve wasn't involved in the Gazetteer metaplot, though.

2 - Reality wrinkles have nothing to do with metaplot or ToUD - definitiv.
Why:
--- If reality wrinkle were so important, i believe mr. Mangrum wouldn't give that curious answer.

John spent two years trying to make the reality wrinkle rules clear to the fans, and has generally lost patience with the issue.

2 - S isn't a GC children, and neither a azalin clone - definitiv.
Why:
--- See the quote above - express NO for GC children.

This is true, and I should have been clearer on this point.

--- The clone thing is based on:
---- Azalin never would use one of his sons to a experiment (see King of Dead; Lord of Necropolis);
---- Even with lust/curiosity for knowledge that could link her to Azalin, can link her to Van Richtem as well;
---- Who had a children transformed in a undead? Van Richtem.
---- Azalin do not had time for stupidities, but social nicieties (them why the mask ball in Avernus?); I can't say for sure about Van Richtem (Since the Weathermay twins too don't have time for sutpidities and social nicieties).
---- Roots from Evil and From the Shadow, as i remember, don't have clones involved, beside it would be a "B-film horror movie script" in my eyes.

This. though, is purely speculation on your part.

3 - S is a van Richtem - dread possibility.
--- it is a dread possibility.

If by that you mean 'speculation', true enough.

Beside,

now i have seem there is a aparent contradiction between Mangrum view of the Gaz. and Ryan:

Given John's heavier involvement and the statements in the published products, I'd go with his interpretation.

Here's something for you: If you look closely at Ravenloft Third Edition, you can find out what Azalin wants.

And:

If S is from Il Aluk why she didn't become a undead after the requiem, or she is already a undead masked be the bracer?

It just means that she hasn't been in the city proper since Darkest Night of 750.

Matthew L. Martin

[The Dark One]

1 - Steve is the creator of the GC, making something with this char without his permission would be at least.... wrong. If not face eventual copyrights problem (like Soth and the big trouble TSR vs Margareth Weis, that WotC needed to solve).

2 - Even with the trouble of the reality wrinkles, the gazzetter metaplot doesn't involve great changes in the demiplane, and reality wrinkles "as is", would change the every fabric of the demiplane.

3 - Read King of Dead, and lord of necropolis (even not canon), them you will have a very good psique of Azalin, and the expression "The iron fist in a cottom velvet". I believe some people still believe that Azalin is the old boy who can't learn and want to escape at all cost, after DoD and the requiem Azalin wants only one thing (two if you consider lord of necropolis): (1) punish the Dark powers; and (2) discover were is or if exists a true Irik reincanation (of course, if you consider the non canon issue). -- But i must agree here that my vision is "non canon" since i based it too in Lord of Necropolis, and not only in King of Dead.

4 - Sorry but i can't agree that you can compreend Azalin intentions only seeing the 3rd edition material (a not complete line). It is the same thing with the Red Box time, whitout the Black Box there is something a miss. Most people would make like me before reading some fan stuff and novels, and believe he is like a old kid wanting power and get the hell out of Ravenloft.


5 - I agree that the clone isn't "definitiv", but it seems obvious for me that S is a parody of Van Richtem:

S: She is utterly evil, son of a iligitimate "darkonese noble"
VR: He is utterly good, son of darkonese noble

S: Married without love, and managed even unvoluntarily to transform her child in a undead, and didn't destroyed it.
VR: Married with love, and his son was transformed in a undead and he destroyed him

S: The gazzeters are about S herself.
VR: what are the van richtem guides if not about Van Richtem himself (better, Van Richtem knowledge)?

And you get lust of knowledge and "bring people to talk to her", if it were only lust / curiosity i would say direct it was Azalin clone, but Azalin personality is more "i say you hear", and not "come and listen". And them comes the observation that the ilustrations of the Gazzetters aren't so trustworthy for a picture analyse.

Beside, in my opinion, it would give the hook to the game designers to explain the event which Azalin helps van Richtem.

I see this as arguments, you see them as speculations.

But of course, is my "wishful thinking".

[Drinnik Shoehorn]

1 - Steve is the creator of the GC, making something with this char without his permission would be at least.... wrong. If not face eventual copyrights problem (like Soth and the big trouble TSR vs Margareth Weis, that WotC needed to solve).

The Hickman/Weis Soth debacle was, as far as I can tell, pure immature "He's my character! It's not fair!"-rattle throwing nonsense.

2 - Even with the trouble of the reality wrinkles, the gazzetter metaplot doesn't involve great changes in the demiplane, and reality wrinkles "as is", would change the every fabric of the demiplane.

I think a war that would engulf Borca is a pretty major change to the setting. And using the GC's children, half fiends no less, and (if I've read the post correctly) all of them half vistana, that has to effect the nature of the land in some fundemental way.

3 - Read King of Dead, and lord of necropolis (even not canon), them you will have a very good psique of Azalin, and the expression "The iron fist in a cottom velvet". I believe some people still believe that Azalin is the old boy who can't learn and want to escape at all cost, after DoD and the requiem Azalin wants only one thing (two if you consider lord of necropolis): (1) punish the Dark powers; and (2) discover were is or if exists a true Irik reincanation (of course, if you consider the non canon issue). -- But i must agree here that my vision is "non canon" since i based it too in Lord of Necropolis, and not only in King of Dead.

I think the point of the Gaz metaplot was that Azalin had realised that he couldn't escape, but being part of Darkon for so long, trapped in the very land, gave him unique perspective on the Dark Powers. Using this knowledge, he has set in motion a plot to if not spoil the Dark Powers plans, then serverly annoy them.

4 - Sorry but i can't agree that you can compreend Azalin intentions only seeing the 3rd edition material (a not complete line). It is the same thing with the Red Box time, whitout the Black Box there is something a miss. Most people would make like me before reading some fan stuff and novels, and believe he is like a old kid wanting power and get the hell out of Ravenloft.

I partially agree. Understanding Azalin's personality means having access to the products of yesterday. I don't think you need the settings, though, merely the last two GC adventures and the Grim Harvest series. Other products add nice fluff, but that's about it.

5 - I agree that the clone isn't "definitiv", but it seems obvious for me that S is a parody of Van Richtem:

S: She is utterly evil, son of a iligitimate "darkonese noble"
VR: He is utterly good, son of darkonese noble

S: Married without love, and managed even unvoluntarily to transform her child in a undead, and didn't destroyed it.
VR: Married with love, and his son was transformed in a undead and he destroyed him

S: The gazzeters are about S herself.
VR: what are the van richtem guides if not about Van Richtem himself (better, Van Richtem knowledge)?

I agree again. And, sorry if this seems offensive, but I'm just trying to be helpful, definative has an E on the end!

And you get lust of knowledge and "bring people to talk to her", if it were only lust / curiosity i would say direct it was Azalin clone, but Azalin personality is more "i say you hear", and not "come and listen". And them comes the observation that the ilustrations of the Gazzetters aren't so trustworthy for a picture analyse.

Beside, in my opinion, it would give the hook to the game designers to explain the event which Azalin helps van Richtem.

I see this as arguments, you see them as speculations.

But of course, is my "wishful thinking".

To be fair, anything anyone has said on this thread with out adding "and I have the proof right here," or "I was told by John Mangrum/Ryan Naylor/any other author who developed the S storyline themselves, in person and with a signed decleration too!" is speculation.

[Matthew L. Martin]

1 - Steve is the creator of the GC, making something with this char without his permission would be at least.... wrong. If not face eventual copyrights problem (like Soth and the big trouble TSR vs Margareth Weis, that WotC needed to solve).

No copyright problems exist--the Caller is the property of WotC (and is the son of multiple creators, with Steve Kurtz providing the seed and Steve Miller turning him into a Fascinating Enigma).

4 - Sorry but i can't agree that you can compreend Azalin intentions only seeing the 3rd edition material (a not complete line). It is the same thing with the Red Box time, whitout the Black Box there is something a miss. Most people would make like me before reading some fan stuff and novels, and believe he is like a old kid wanting power and get the hell out of Ravenloft.

If you look carefully at the Third Edition core book, you can find out what Azalin wants.

How he intends to get it is a bit more enigmatic.

5 - I agree that the clone isn't "definitiv", but it seems obvious for me that S is a parody of Van Richtem:

Congratulations (and I mean that sincerely)--you've hit on the thematic concept of S as the "anti-Van Richten" that the Kargatane used for writing her.

That doesn't mean there's necessarily a more solid connection.

I see this as arguments, you see them as speculations.

But of course, is my "wishful thinking".

No, the wishful thinking was when you presented your arguments as 'definitive'.

Matthew L. Martin

[Matthew L. Martin]

A point I missed:

Now defending my 5 appointments:


2 - S isn't a GC children, and neither a azalin clone - definitiv.
Why:

--- The clone thing is based on:
---- Azalin never would use one of his sons to a experiment (see King of Dead; Lord of Necropolis);

Ah, but he did. Lowellyn Dachine was one of Azalin's clones and was used as the test subject for the infernal machine.

Matthew L. Martin

[The Dark One]

A point I missed:

Now defending my 5 appointments:


2 - S isn't a GC children, and neither a azalin clone - definitiv.
Why:

--- The clone thing is based on:
---- Azalin never would use one of his sons to a experiment (see King of Dead; Lord of Necropolis);

Ah, but he did. Lowellyn Dachine was one of Azalin's clones and was used as the test subject for the infernal machine.

Matthew L. Martin

Now i got you

There is a trouble when TSR make B.ll.h.t when transformed Lord of necropolis non canon. Since, if you take this non canon variant ( that i believe was the right one, since Gene make a very good psique of Azalin), you got that Dachine wasn't meant to enter the doomsday machine. He enter against the will of Azalin (or more because Azalin failure in watch him). Dachine believed that he had more "right" to enter that the one choosed be azalin to enter.

Beside, clone isn't a child.

But there is a need for further explanations: the "azalin won't do that with a son" was meant as comparison with S attitude in subject her daughter on a experiment which ended wrong (daughter became a ghoul).

PS: About the 'e' at the end of definitive, its because in german definitive is definitif, so a made a wrong association

[Joël of the FoS]

(I have a headache)

[Steve Miller]

1 - Steve is the creator of the GC, making something with this char without his permission would be at least.... wrong. If not face eventual copyrights problem (like Soth and the big trouble TSR vs Margareth Weis, that WotC needed to solve).

Actually, there were no copyright problems with Soth. Just ego problems.

And Mangrum's right. My comments have nothing to do with where the GAZ seres was heading. Heck, if I had my section of GAZ V to do over, I probably wouldn't have bothered trying to keep with what the intentions seemed to be.

[Jester of the FoS]

To many pieces, too few that fit. We can't even see the border of the puzzle and some of the pieces contradict each other (such as Ryan stating the plot is an escape attempt by Azalin while Mangrum says it is not).

I'm no longer even sure S is a vanRichten as she was merely raised by the Darkonese noble and there are no real hints on her nationality. Heck, with the emphasis given to her hawk nose she might be Vlad Dracov's kid. Cold, arrogant, no time for stupidity or social niceties.

All we really have to go on is the fact that somewhere, in some possibly deleted post, that could be here or on the WotC board or the long forgotten Goat, someone guessed (or had spilled to him from an inside source) the entire plot.

We're never going to figure it out because we're missing too much information and hung up on our own theories. We can't even settle on something like S's identity that is probably irrelevant to the major plot.
I'm suddenly reminded of the huge scuffle over whether or not S was a woman after GazII when no one really wanted to believe it and bitterly argued to the end (otherwise known as the release of GazIII).

[Gemathustra]

Well, for one thing, since S claimed to be of Darkonese descent, and has crossed the border of Darkon several times without having her memories be readjusted, it's safe to assume that she was born/manufactured in Darkon.

[Don Fernando]

I believe, that some speculation can be allowed as long as we have clear lines to stick to. However in the case of 3rd. Ed. we do not have anything, because in my oppinionall the plots that generated in this edition are too vague. I wish not to say that the books (all of them) were of bad quality, I find that you get your money's worth, in most of them. If we can't solve a basic issue like the plot of the Gazetteers then something is really wrong.

Generally speaking every single part of the plot, involving S and what else, is not clearly described in any book. GC children? Great, there were 5 (five!) in the gaz's and only two are explicitly described as the GC children. Azalin's plan? No problem, read somewhere in the core rulebook, it's there. S's past? It's like building a puzzle made entirely out of grey pieces. Nothing conclusive.

So what I'm trying to say is that we stand in the middle of nowhere, eventhough we read all the books and got a lot of feedback from the designers. Is this the flexibility we wanted for our campaign world? I feel like everyone is taking Ravenloft in a different direction, twisting a main plot so important to the timeline. I agree that Ravenloft has always allowed DM's to be flexible regarding the story, but there was always a starting point, a north we could all relate to. We knew where the world was heading, regardless of how personal our campaign could get. Isn't this what's missing now?

I look back and think about the Grand Conjunction plot. Imagine that Ravenloft was canceled way before Roots of evil was released. Say, after Night of the Living Dead. What would you know about the plot? Who are the main characters involved? Why are they doing this? What's the goal? Now read all the Gaz's and ask yourself these same questions. If you can answer at least two of these questions, without any guessing, then you solved the problem that couldn't been solved in this thread.