4Edition. Do you like it?

[HuManBing]

Fallacious Philosophy:

Postulate the first - "I like to eat mozzarella."

Query - "Do you like 4E?"

Qualified response - "Only if 4E is like eating mozzarella."




This is why I took English Literature instead of Logic.

[alhoon]

I didn't get it HMB...

[Sorti]

even easier:

- I like RPGs
- I don't like 4th edition
____________________
4th edition is not a RPG

QED

[HuManBing]

1. Nothing is better than 4E.

2. Therefore, I prefer playing nothing.

QE- wait what?

[Joël of the FoS]

On a similar topic, the brick-like Pathfinder book has been released. 500+ paged, so it's 200 pages more than the 4e PHB and only $15 more. Sadly, it doesn't have the monster rules of the original, but those are coming in their own book with updated monsters. Yay!

Well it's PHB + DMG in the same book. For 50$ can, that's a feat.

Browsing through it, that's quite well made. I'll open another thread to discuss it, in order not to highjack this one.

Joël

[alhoon]

Update: I just (like 5 mins before starting this) finished my 4th edition "campaign season".
PCs: A ranger multiclassed as fighter and a dwarf cleric.
+ ... an ogre! (elite level 13 brute) Which equals +600 XP/encounter.
+ A wolf named Fluffy who never ever was present in battles. Funny story why.

I.e The major adventures leading to a climatic battle have been solved after 1 and a half month of gaming and we're putting the whole thing on halt. Perhaps we will return to those chars, perhaps not.

Since I was on busy scedule, it was far easier for me. I enjoyed it, my sister enjoyed it. Yes, I prefer 3rd but for a thing like this along with the considerations of time restrictions (and how rested/tired we were when playing) 4th edition was better.
Short story: The Chars had to stop a wererat infestation. A couple of adventures led the PCs in the sewers of an abandoned city where they discovered a plot by 3 powerful wererats to break the seals of the portal that kept their spiritual leader (a legendary and very powerful wererat) captive. The Wererats were increasing in power performing vile rituals to strengthen their leader before releasing him.
The whole thing has started more than a decade ago, when the three masters found fragments of a special seal used in locking away this legendary wererat entity. Through these fragments, the captive wererat entity could form a kind of communication giving hints and help to his followers form the plan and the ritual for his return.
The PCs confronted the three masters and instead of just calling it a day then and there, delved deeeeper in the sewers of the city, to ancient catacombs hidden there even before the city was built. They used the seal and called the wererat lord, in a weakened state (the rituals weren't complete, it wasn't the time for his release yet) and killed him, ending the threat once and for all.

In the process, the PCs had more than 3 adventures, killed more than 120 wererats and destroyed their more important nests. The magic of the seal fragments and the power of the trapped wererat were empowering these places of reverance for the wererats.
After each defeat, the place for the wererats was just another hole with echoes of past glory. No empowering magics to help them strengthen or train. (I.e advance from level 3 monsters to level 10 monsters and gain more supernatural abilities).
Only one "clan" of wererats still exists in the city's sewers and they're weakened. Less than 50 wererats remain without any masters.

What would be different in 3rd edition:
The seer number of killed wererats for starters. There would have been easy-to-kill wererats and fireballs would deal with a large number of them, but still there's no way 2 PCs and an NPC henchman would have killed so many wererats so fast.

The use of maps. Most of the adventure was formed after I checked the maps. I.e I had the generic idea. Then I looked all the maps I had available and decided what kind of encounter I wanted there. Like: "Map of mine... hmm, I change the description to include fetid water in the corridors and I change it to sewers. Cool. There would be a couple of ambushes there. Oh! A map of a city's central square! Let's say the adventure takes place under a city."
In 3rd edition instead of using premade maps for every encounter, I usualy do a draft scetch, no squares and we play based on that.

The general idea. In 3rd edition, I would have gone into detail about these "magic places". I would think how they have been formed, who scetched those circles and why, how they were subverted and used by the wererat shamans and mages etc.
In 4th edition, I just go with the "more interesting terrain, combat focus, not too much attention to details".


In effect, it's not that much the difference in rules. I could have run the same adventure in 3rd edition. It's just the mood and how the rules pre-occupy you.

[Scipion_Emilien]

Well, 3rd edition feeled far more realistic to me.

As for the Vancian system, well it's just how magic works in a fantasy world. 4E rules for magic are easily explained as such, how magic works.

On the part of "There's an opening once per encounter for you to hit him with the X combo that throws him back a few steps." or "Once per encounter, you're quite lucky that you manage to maneuver through enemies (15') unmolested before you strike the enemy. But only once!"
That's weird.

That’s the main point that keeps me away from 4e. I’ve never wrote here what I think about it for a long time, so here’s my thoughts on 4e.

It seems like a balanced, fun to play game, I won’t argue on that. Many sensible people seem to enjoy it. It is a worthwhile game. I'd love to test it but do not know anybody playing it.

But my main obstacle is that 4e is too far (my taste) from traditional D&D I started playing nearly 30 years from now. The feel from 1e to 2e was the same, but it got better. From 2e to 3e/3.5, it was again the same, but better.

For me 4e is another game system. It is much different from D&D we learned so I know what alhoon means when he says 3rd edition feeled far more realistic to me.

I think it is much different now, where every classes are still specialized, but in the end seems to do much of the same. I hate the idea of healing surges, I think it’s silly (again, my taste, and that’s from a grognard). I’m under the impression (from critics I read) you have a smaller variety of options to do than in 3.5, so in the end you often make the same move, or use the same ability over and over.

4e seems pretty much simplified to play and easy to learn, compared to 3.5. That’s an impressive design feat, bravo to the designers. However, that’s precisely what I like in 3.5, that the possibilities are near endless and complicated.

And with Pathfinder 3.75 coming out, I feel the 3e era is still improving, solving problems, so it keeps my interest high.

Joël

Well after one year of the release of the 4e system, I must say that this is more or less the feeling that I have with 4e.

My group get rapidly in the 4e system and we were really enthusiast about it. But after 2 month, we realize that we had for all intent and purpose ditch the 4e system. Each new idea we had was in the 3.x system or free-form RPG. Nothing in 4e. Our books were just sitting in the shelve without getting any use.

I think for us it's the "gamist" part of the game that kill our enthusiasm. We were putting more and more thought in the tactical and optimisation part of the game, and less and less with the story (which is what we dig). The asymetrical system between monster and player didn't help either and give us the feeling of being in a pre-script video game.

But in conclusion, it seem to be that we are content with our 3.x variant, houserule to meet our needs had been made since a long time, and 4e is too much of a change for our style of play.

For the moment we play Star Wars SAGA, the best hybrid between 3.x and an evolution we have for the moment. We are thinking about rebooting one of our old Ravenloft campaign with pathfinder rules.

[Mortavius]

In effect, it's not that much the difference in rules. I could have run the same adventure in 3rd edition. It's just the mood and how the rules pre-occupy you.

Exactly one of the things I've been saying forever Alhoon. This game is what you make it; if you want it role-playing heavy, then 4E can be that. If you just want hack & slash, then 4E can be that too. It just comes down to whether you like the rules system or not.

[alhoon]

For the moment we play Star Wars SAGA, the best hybrid between 3.x and an evolution we have for the moment. We are thinking about rebooting one of our old Ravenloft campaign with pathfinder rules.

Agreed. And I also like the Saga's take on how to handle the spell-like effects of the magic. I believe a similar system with the force system could be applied for magic and the rules would work. My only gripe with SW saga rules used for a medevial setting is the lack of AC. But again, that could be brought back.

[Jester of the FoS]

I actually prefer the removal of AC. I'd have preferred if 4e kept the basic attack vs. Reflex and simply had a choice between Dex/Int to boost it or armour. It just makes things complicated with the difference between AC and NAD and the proficiency bonus to weapons and the like.
I'm pretty sure they only kept AC as a sacred cow.

[Joël of the FoS]

This game is what you make it

Quoted as truth for me.

It's not the system as the setting

[Dion of the Fraternity]

4Edition. Do you like it?

Why YES, I do!

(Given the resistance of many people to 4e, and the slap I just got in my other thread, I'm obliged to defend 4e all the more.)

[alhoon]

Good for you that you like it. Would you like to elaborate a bit more on why? It's not that we hate it here.

[Kaitou Kage]

4Edition. Do you like it?

Why YES, I do!

(Given the resistance of many people to 4e, and the slap I just got in my other thread, I'm obliged to defend 4e all the more.)

I agree with this statement

[Twin Agate Dragons]

(Given the resistance of many people to 4e, and the slap I just got in my other thread, I'm obliged to defend 4e all the more.)

I am deeply sorry. Please forgive me.