4Edition. Do you like it?

[Jester of the FoS]

I agree that it has very little in 4e that feels or plays like earlier editions of D&D. But there was so few differences between 1e and 2e compared to the changes between 3e and 4e that's no surprise; the game has changed so much in the 35+ years it's been around.

I'm sure if you compared it to some other RPGs you'd see more changes in them. There are pretty huge gameplay and fluff changes between Vampire: the Masquerade and Requiem.

I think you could take a step-back from 4e to make it more old school (or add more throw-backs to 5e), but I'm sure some Dungeon Crawl Classics have 4e adventures that feel like 1e through just set-up and atmosphere.

[Twin Agate Dragons]

I mean, 1st ED has been dead for years now, and yet, 3 editions later, some disgruntled people are still complaining about its cancellation!

You know what's funny? In 1991 2nd Edition was around, the person who introduced me to D&D and role-playing in general wasn't even aware of it. Therefore my roots in gaming go back to first edition AD&D. Sometimes when I look over what little 1E books I have left I get all nostalgic.

I have a deep love for 3E's D20 system and it will always be system of choice, but that doesn't mean that I don't have respect for what's gone before.

Looking over Tattoodles post, I can see how I have over-reacted about 4E. Yes, it's a new edition of the game and to be perfectly honest Tattoodle sums up perfectly how I feel about D&D 4E. I'd vote differently on this poll now if I could.

[Jester of the FoS]

Yesterday I had a sandbox game of 4e with my laptop at the side running the DDI Compendium and Monster Builder in case my PCs got cute and picked a fight I wasn't expected.
One did, and it was the only fight in the four-hour session. (It lasted two rounds.)

Other than that, it was straight RPing and skill checks.

Was it D&D? Yeah, probably. It felt and played very much like other D&D games I've played from 2nd, 3rd and 3.5 editions.
Was the zombie apocalypse 4e game I ran a few weeks earlier with the same PCs D&D? Ehhhh... maybe? Depends on your definition of D&D. For me... not so much. The game itself is fun and solid, but so is any new RPG (computer or PnP).
For me it still feels a little much like the D&D Minis game with PCs controlling a single high-point mini and the DM controlling many. The gameplay is identical (except that DDM has lines in addition to burst/blast and the confused condition, so *technically* 4e is the mini game lite).

Of course, as any good grognard will point out, D&D itself started out as a way for players to take control of a single mini and have them explore and do more that fight.

[alhoon]

[So they enhanced combat mechanics to be more tactical. Big deal. It's still D&D and it still plays wonderfully.

I agree the game plays very well. I just personaly can't achieve the same immersion with 4E. They did the world far less believable for me. Less believability = less imersion.

"I've traveled to the worlds the Gods Reside. I have traded blows with Orcus... and I still can't kill the random orc berseker that tries to ambush me with a single attack"

"I'm the embodiment of magical knowledge. I have read forgotten libraries constructed aeons ago by mythical beings... Fly? Well, not more than 20' over the surface. Change to a bird? Nope."

Sleep spell on the 5th level soldier by a 2nd lvl wizard apprentice... The soldier has exactly the same chance to shake out of it as from the sleep spell casted by a 15th level wizard that travels to other planes and confronts dragons. That's so 2nd edition that makes me cringe!
Bragan the 10th level fighter with his items has a save vs spells at 9. So, if the 1st level mage threw a charm person on him, OR a 20th level archmage ... he resists with a 9.

I mean, 1st ED has been dead for years now ...

Blasphemy! ! ! !

And you know what their arguments are like?

"2nd ED doesn't promote role playing like in the good old days!"
"This is just TSR trying to make money off of the fans' backs!"
"They're selling their souls to the Gods of greedy capitalism!"
"2nd ED isn't balanced!"
"2nd ED isn't as much fun!"
"2nd ED is broken!"
"2nd ED is for kids!"

Sound familiar?

And according to my opinion, they are right. 2nd Edition IMO was worse than 1st edition (Because they sold you basically the same game anew) which was worse than OD&D.

Of course, as any good grognard will point out, D&D itself started out as a way for players to take control of a single mini and have them explore and do more that fight.

I think that at it's very very roots, D&D started as a tabletop game where the players gathered to explore a place and kick things about as they got stronger and got loot. I.e, NOT do more than fight.

[Mortavius]

Having a ton of 3E books, and having read them, I can honestly say that all the roleplaying fluff in those books NEVER enhanced my gaming sessions. It's not that my games didn't have roleplaying; far from it.

My players just chose to create their own stories and roleplaying hooks. Some of my best memories aren't from any book, but from something someone at the table thought up.

In short, the books didn't teach us or tell us how to roleplay.

I think anyone who is drawn to D&D knows how to roleplay. These people do not need to be taught. This is learned when one is a small child, in games of make-believe and pretend. Cops and Robbers anyone?

Players who want to roleplay, will do it, no matter what the books say. If they don't want to, but they enjoy the game, then they will play it with roleplaying elements on the lighter side.

If a player is trying out this game, because all of their friends are, and not because they are personally drawn to it, then they'll instinctively follow the lead that their friends give. If their friends are all roleplaying, they'll try to, at least to the extent of their personality. If their friends don't, then they won't.

In regards to Jester's post about the new 4E books not encouraging roleplaying, the only way I can possibly see this as being an influencing factor, is if everyone at the table was new to D&D completely, and none of the people were personally drawn to the game. And frankly, I can't imagine that actually happening. Who's going to drop down the money required to buy the books if no one is personally drawn to the game?

In all my time playing D&D, it has always without fail been the case that someone new to the game (including myself) has been introduced to it by an experienced player.

[ewancummins]

I mean, 1st ED has been dead for years now, and yet, 3 editions later, some disgruntled people are still complaining about its cancellation!

Umm..nope. 1E lives on, my friend. People are still playing it, writing and publishing stuff for it,etc.


OSRIC

[Twin Agate Dragons]

I mean, 1st ED has been dead for years now, and yet, 3 editions later, some disgruntled people are still complaining about its cancellation!

Umm..nope. 1E lives on, my friend. People are still playing it, writing and publishing stuff for it,etc.

OSRIC

Osric is all fine and Dandy, but Castles & Crusades is where it's at.

[Zettaijin]

I mean, 1st ED has been dead for years now, and yet, 3 editions later, some disgruntled people are still complaining about its cancellation!

Umm..nope. 1E lives on, my friend. People are still playing it, writing and publishing stuff for it,etc.


OSRIC

Spoil sport! One day I will bury 1E! A stake through its heart and its head in a ditch! With my 1E mage's soiled robe wrapped around it!

[Twin Agate Dragons]

Spoil sport! One day I will bury 1E! A stake through its heart and its head in a ditch! With my 1E mage's soiled robe wrapped around it!

Soiled?

[Zettaijin]

It's a long story...

Well not really, but see, my 1st level mage character met up with an evil wizard's faithful mongrelman servant... alone... with no memorized spells left... So, I did what any 1st level 1E AD&D wizard with no memorized spells left would do in such a situation.

I mean besides running for his life or throwing a dagger (which he had already done, thus depleting the potential daily combat options of a 1st level mage).

I recall the DM going "You can't do that!" to which I replied "Like Hell, I can't! I'd like to see YOUR 1st level 1E mage walking around an evil wizard's castle only to come face to face with a deformed servant who happens to have a huge claw instead of a hand... without any memorized spells left!"

Now, had the DM been the kind of guy with a sense of humour, he'd have done something other than just chastise me for my mage's indiscretion in the midst of battle. But no, Mr. I'm a serious 1E DM with no sense of humour just frowned and threatened to throw me out of the game!

You know, maybe that's why I have issues with 1E. Damn you traumatic childhood experiences!

[alhoon]

So, I did what any 1st level 1E AD&D wizard with no memorized spells left would do in such a situation.

I still don't get it.

[High Priest Mikhal]

So, I did what any 1st level 1E AD&D wizard with no memorized spells left would do in such a situation.

I still don't get it.

The wizard crapped his robe from fear. Those tidy-whities ain't so white now.

[Jester of the FoS]

[So they enhanced combat mechanics to be more tactical. Big deal. It's still D&D and it still plays wonderfully.

I agree the game plays very well. I just personally can't achieve the same immersion with 4E. They did the world far less believable for me. Less believability = less immersion.

"I've traveled to the worlds the Gods Reside. I have traded blows with Orcus... and I still can't kill the random orc berserker that tries to ambush me with a single attack"

Depends on the level of the orc. It's static damage from feats and items that really make-up the difference in the epic tier. A wizard probably will dish it out, even with at-wills.

"I'm the embodiment of magical knowledge. I have read forgotten libraries constructed aeons ago by mythical beings... Fly? Well, not more than 20' over the surface. Change to a bird? Nope."

Rituals do let you fly. There's an overland flight one from Dragon for mid-Paragon that makes travel easy.
Shapechanging... they might have one, but it'd likely work for travel only and in combat you resume your own form.

Sleep spell on the 5th level soldier by a 2nd lvl wizard apprentice... The soldier has exactly the same chance to shake out of it as from the sleep spell casted by a 15th level wizard that travels to other planes and confronts dragons. That's so 2nd edition that makes me cringe!

Saving throws are a duration tracker. The spell will hit when 15th level (except on a "1") and a good L15 orbizard should have a tonne of items and feats and powers that will so penalize the save he might as well just accept being helpless.

Bragan the 10th level fighter with his items has a save vs spells at 9. So, if the 1st level mage threw a charm person on him, OR a 20th level archmage ... he resists with a 9.

Again, save=duration tracker. "Save ends" is 3e's "lasts 1d4 rounds", only with the added option of being able to dump a tonne of resources when you absolutely have to make that saving throw. Unlike 3e where you just have to sit down and take-it for the rounds.

Of course, as any good grognard will point out, D&D itself started out as a way for players to take control of a single mini and have them explore and do more that fight.

I think that at it's very very roots, D&D started as a tabletop game where the players gathered to explore a place and kick things about as they got stronger and got loot. I.e, NOT do more than fight.

[/quote]

Exploration and traps and that stuff is very, very much more than "fight". When the game was previously comprised of opposing forces set-up at opposite sides of a table then changing the game where 4/5ths work together and explore is infinitely less combat.
This is doubly true when traps often have to be creatively by-passed and experimented with instead of just disarmed via a take-20 Disable Device check.

Now, traps are essentially a mini-combat and best used in-combat. And exploration is the tiny length of time spent in halls between rooms where combat occurs. So the game is has moved from combat and traps and exploration to combat, and combat with traps, and short rests. [/i]

[Kaitou Kage]

I agree the game plays very well. I just personaly can't achieve the same immersion with 4E. They did the world far less believable for me. Less believability = less imersion.

I don't get why it's so hard to understand that the world is what you make of it. Why do so many anti-4e people get so married to every last thing Wizards wrote down? The DMG explicitly says if you don't like something, throw it out.

If you don't like the way the world is set up, throw it out!

[Zettaijin]

So, I did what any 1st level 1E AD&D wizard with no memorized spells left would do in such a situation.

I still don't get it.

The wizard crapped his robe from fear. Those tidy-whities ain't so white now.

Please, he only urinated in his robe. Marc Asmodeus did have some semblance of self respect.

A-hem...

So, in short, to me 1st ED is like that period of your life you'd rather forget.

Moving on, the game is what you make of it. AD&D always has been and always will be a game. There's no right or wrong way to play or enjoy it, but sometimes you get the feeling that people say that just to sound nice and open minded.