5e announced!

[ScS of the Fraternity]

type of CEO who will lie blatantly about the health of the game. This doesn't engender trust.

Whoa, whoa, whoa!

You mean that there's a type of CEO that we can trust?
Why am I only hearing about this now?
What industry are these honest CEO's in? Computers, waste management, supervilliany? Whatever it is, I'll join it.

But yeah, I wouldn't expect any kind of insight from an interview with management or marketing. They have absolutely nothing to gain from truth and everything to lose. Even if the news is truthfully all rosy, they still have no reason to complicate the narrative of their marketing copy with actual facts.

[HuManBing]

Sorry, I couldn't resist.



This is a fantastic ad, and one CEO I would trust.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

But he's not the CEO of Hasbro, he's the CEO of WotC which is just an affliate of Hasbro. Hasbro has it's own toys and products to manage. He's the CEO of WotC and all of the related games, but when you google his name you see reference after reference associate with MtG. D&D seems secondary. Which is the thing, Magic seems to be his baby. D&D just seems like the brand his former boss aquired and now he has to manage.

Ah... I hadn't realized he was just CEO of WotC. that's a bit of a different story in terms of what I'd expect him to know about D&D. But still, I only get "CEO-speak" out of that interview, and I wouldn't expect anything else, regardless of his passion for the game or lack thereof. Especially if D&D was in trouble (which we now know it was), it's imperative for the CEO not to make it seem so. He has a responsibility to his board and stockholders (or maybe the board and stockholders of the parent company) to do so.

[alhoon]

Completely unrelated:
We had an almost total TPK tonight. 2 PCs one NPC, and my PC was the only that was BARELY left alive, after stabilizing and surviving 3 days on the woods. I liked the NPC.

On topic:
Whether he's WotC CEO or Hasbro... does it make any difference?

[Jester of the FoS]

But still, I only get "CEO-speak" out of that interview, and I wouldn't expect anything else, regardless of his passion for the game or lack thereof. Especially if D&D was in trouble (which we now know it was), it's imperative for the CEO not to make it seem so. He has a responsibility to his board and stockholders (or maybe the board and stockholders of the parent company) to do so.

Hasbro is a publicly traded company true, but WotC has virtually no impact on the share prices of HAS. Hasbro stock dropped by $5 or around 12% the month 4th Edition was released at the height of the edition's hype and sales. And while D&D was getting its ass kicked around the block by Paizo for Quarters 3 and 4 of 2011 HAS stock was rebounding after dropping.
Back in 2005, Hasbro pushed for 4e because D&D was below the $50 million/ year sales mark. Meanwhile, Hasbro proper can sell $650 million... per quarter. Hasbro sells over fifty times as much goods as D&D at it's theoretical best. The Transformers movies alone have grossed over a billion dollars.

The CEO of Wizards could come out in public and say their game encourages witchcraft, Satanism, and includes how-to guides for animal sacrifice and it's still only have the more insignificant effect of Hasbro stocks. Telling people the truth about the health of D&D and the edition is nothing.

[alhoon]

For Hasbro perhaps. Not for D&D

[Le Noir Faineant]

I am personally sort of intrigued how much people are actually invested in 5e.

Not to be a grognard, or whatever, but for 5e to interest me beyond a passing look,
it would have to be relevant to my interests in terms of:

Does it support any of the old settings, or does the ruleset offer any substantial improvement over the game I already play?

(Like, in retrospect, 3e was better than 2e for the games I - Rafe, the individual - wanted to run, so that was the reason I switched.)

So far, sadly, there have been no positive news on the setting side, and no exciting news on the rules side either.


Like, understand me well, but a set of D&D books is a substantial investment - basically, the equivalent of two new, full-prize video games.

For such an amount of money, I would expect a new game to be exciting and truly special.

So far, even with all the media hubbus, I don't see that for NEXT.




IMO, the great chance for D&D lies in that, with decreasing sales and interest, Wizbro switches to more and more to nostalgia products,
like the rerelease of the AD&D 1e books, the Dungeon game, or the announced rules-free FR book.

Probably, it won't last long until Ravenloft gets that nostalgic treatment as well.
I actually hope so, even with the latest revamps being relatively new.

But apart from that, 5e, 6e, 7e, whatever, in the end, doesn't bother me at my gaming table,
as long as the other books are some way available, and the competition fabricates products that I consider more to my liking.

Like, again, Wizards should listen to their fans if they want to sell their books. I am a customer, not a cult follower.

[Dion of the Fraternity]

One of the things that enamored me to Legend of the Five Rings RPG was the fact that the current 4th Edition frequently refers back to previous editions of L5R for a lot of stuff, thereby eliminating the need for redundant releases. As an example, the "Imperial Histories" accessory (which details roleplaying in various points in Rokugan's history) tells GMs to refer back to the 2E "Time of the Void" accessory if they want to go in-depth with roleplaying during the Clan Wars era.

On a side note, even before D&D 4E and Pathfinder, L5R had already been asking its fans to help flesh out the two most recent editions of L5R RPG. Additionally L5R 4E is "timeline neutral," meaning that players could use any time period in the game (Clan Wars, Iweko Era, War vs. the Spirits, etc.). I have this suspicion that WotC is consciously mirroring for D&D Next what L5R has successfully been doing for years now.

[Jester of the FoS]

I am personally sort of intrigued how much people are actually invested in 5e.
Not to be a grognard, or whatever, but for 5e to interest me beyond a passing look,
it would have to be relevant to my interests in terms of:

Does it support any of the old settings, or does the ruleset offer any substantial improvement over the game I already play?

Like, understand me well, but a set of D&D books is a substantial investment - basically, the equivalent of two new, full-prize video games.

For such an amount of money, I would expect a new game to be exciting and truly special.
So far, even with all the media hubbus, I don't see that for NEXT.

IMO, the great chance for D&D lies in that, with decreasing sales and interest, Wizbro switches to more and more to nostalgia products, like the rerelease of the AD&D 1e books, the Dungeon game, or the announced rules-free FR book.

Probably, it won't last long until Ravenloft gets that nostalgic treatment as well.
I actually hope so, even with the latest revamps being relatively new.

But apart from that, 5e, 6e, 7e, whatever, in the end, doesn't bother me at my gaming table,
as long as the other books are some way available, and the competition fabricates products that I consider more to my liking.

Like, again, Wizards should listen to their fans if they want to sell their books. I am a customer, not a cult follower.

I personally don't find the financial investment that bad. An hour and a half of work per book. It wipes out my mad money and savings for a single paycheque, but the return on investment is high. As a DM you might drop $120-50 but get years of enjoyment. The more you play, the better the value. I've spent probably $300 on Pathfinder books over the last two years, buying far more books than I actually need, but have put in 150 hours of play time. That's $2 an hour. That's better value than most video games.

But I'm also a dedicated game. I buy games I will never play. I'm looking at grabbing the Marvel game and Eclipse Phase this summer and will be luck to play either.


So far I'm tentatively excited about 5th edition.
I love the renewed focus on DM customizability and playing the game you want. I enjoy modding games, but having playtesting and well designed rules already done makes my life easier. This is huge. I love the idea of being able to choose my lethality and easily drop in rules for Fear or Madness. It should be an excellent edition for every campaign setting.

The overly nostalgic design is worrisome, in that they're looking back instead of forward, but then I remind myself that "forward" is an abstraction, and that change and new ideas are not always better. 1e sold better than any other edition, so looking at what made it work is not a bad idea. I also worry they're being a little reactionary to 4e, overly focusing on things that edition does poorly. But, again, my problems with 4e were fairly common and do need some attention. Such as the emphasis on out-of-combat actions and a reduced emphasis on per-built powers and rules.

I have to remind myself I championed 4th Edition, and was all on board with its design decisions and goals until I saw the final product.
However, 5e is going for a Paizo inspired mass playtest. Which is nice. So I can voice my opinion and review the product before it's release.

[alhoon]

So far I'm tentatively excited about 5th edition.
I love the renewed focus on DM customizability and playing the game you want. I enjoy modding games, but having playtesting and well designed rules already done makes my life easier.

I have to remind myself I championed 4th Edition, and was all on board with its design decisions and goals until I saw the final product.

I was going to say that too... I also liked 4ed from the "previews" too much, till I realized... that was all of it. It's not that 4E is bad. I like it. It plays easily and feels heroic. However, it's too ... limited in order to be balanced. Every class bleeds to the others at least to a degree.
You can't have a fighter throwing area attacks, but he can at least have a couple. That kind of thing.

Before Monte Cook left 5e I was "Tentatively excited". Now I'm less, but still want to see what will happen.
From all the "Vote for the product you like!" polls, I'm afraid we will get a lukewarm ruleset that tries to hit too many targets, more that it can realistically hit, so it will effectively miss alot.

In the end though, I'm confident I'll make my own rulesystem out of 5th edition, taking things I like from the prev editions. More work, but I'll make it work.

For example:
I want magic users that do some serious damage a few times per day (more than 3 in 10th lvl though, thank you), and have a couple of at will attacks.
I want self-healing but not as much as 4th edition.
I want the 15th lvl character to be vastly more powerful than the 4th lvl character. Not as much as in 3rd, but certainly more than in 4th.
+ Other things.

[Le Noir Faineant]

I personally don't find the financial investment that bad. An hour and a half of work per book. It wipes out my mad money and savings for a single paycheque, but the return on investment is high. As a DM you might drop $120-50 but get years of enjoyment. The more you play, the better the value. I've spent probably $300 on Pathfinder books over the last two years, buying far more books than I actually need, but have put in 150 hours of play time. That's $2 an hour. That's better value than most video games.

I am more reserved about that, simply because I play more non-D&D games in real life than actual D&D.

Also, the consumerism that D&D and other hobbies provoke, and that I engaged in over the past years,
sort of irks me now. 150 bucks, that's still a lot of stuff to spend on a hobby, especially, since there's a lot of cheaper stuff
of equal quality around. Dragon Warrior's, my personal favorite non-D&D RPG's complete run of eight books didn't cost me 150 $.

But, then again, for me, the setting, not the rules make the game in most cases;
since TSR/Wizbro don't continue with any of the settings I am interested, my motivation is naturally smaller.

Also, of course, I own more gaming books than I need already, and by far;
even if I just run the stuff I consider run-worthy, that still makes me happy long time.

But, hey, to end this on a lighter note, I am very pleased that our common hobby has developed this kind of endurance.
5e will surely advance it even more; if I eventually find something in it that works for me, the better.

But for now, between Osric, Castles & Crusades, Lamentations of the Flame Princess, and whatever else is out there, my bookshelf is stuffed.

[Jester of the FoS]

I personally don't find the financial investment that bad. An hour and a half of work per book. It wipes out my mad money and savings for a single paycheque, but the return on investment is high. As a DM you might drop $120-50 but get years of enjoyment. The more you play, the better the value. I've spent probably $300 on Pathfinder books over the last two years, buying far more books than I actually need, but have put in 150 hours of play time. That's $2 an hour. That's better value than most video games.

I am more reserved about that, simply because I play more non-D&D games in real life than actual D&D.

Also, the consumerism that D&D and other hobbies provoke, and that I engaged in over the past years,
sort of irks me now. 150 bucks, that's still a lot of stuff to spend on a hobby, especially, since there's a lot of cheaper stuff
of equal quality around. Dragon Warrior's, my personal favorite non-D&D RPG's complete run of eight books didn't cost me 150 $.

But didn't that come out in the 80s? This is really just inflation plus rising printing costs, plus the increase in quality as the books swapped to higher quality paper and full colour ink.
The original price of all three D&D books was probably under $50. The 3e books were $75 (although, I snagged mine at a con for $50). The boxed set for 4e was $105 USD. They might be able to charge a similar amount for 5e or it might drift up to $125.
Considering a movie night out with the wife and kid runs $60 for two hours entertainment, if I but the D&D books for $150 and play for longer than six hours I've gotten more for my money. I doubt I could even pay my cable/internet/phone bill with $150.

It is a bit consumerist, but that's the appeal of the hobby to collectors. Everyone needs a guilty hobby, something that's just fun to spend some money on. Something that relieves the stress and keeps you sane. I'm happy with gaming and comics as, at the end of the day I have books on a shelf and I like my stuff. I've always been a "stuff" person.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

Back in 2005, Hasbro pushed for 4e because D&D was below the $50 million/ year sales mark. Meanwhile, Hasbro proper can sell $650 million... per quarter. Hasbro sells over fifty times as much goods as D&D at it's theoretical best. The Transformers movies alone have grossed over a billion dollars.

The CEO of Wizards could come out in public and say their game encourages witchcraft, Satanism, and includes how-to guides for animal sacrifice and it's still only have the more insignificant effect of Hasbro stocks. Telling people the truth about the health of D&D and the edition is nothing.

Yes, D&D is a drop in the Hasbro bucket, but it's his drop that he's responsible for. Badmouthing D&D in public (or just revealing the truth about it's troubles) might not impact Hasbro's stock, but it would get him fired.

[Le Noir Faineant]

But didn't that come out in the 80s? This is really just inflation plus rising printing costs, plus the increase in quality as the books swapped to higher quality paper and full colour ink.
The original price of all three D&D books was probably under $50. The 3e books were $75 (although, I snagged mine at a con for $50). The boxed set for 4e was $105 USD. They might be able to charge a similar amount for 5e or it might drift up to $125.
Considering a movie night out with the wife and kid runs $60 for two hours entertainment, if I but the D&D books for $150 and play for longer than six hours I've gotten more for my money. I doubt I could even pay my cable/internet/phone bill with $150.

It is a bit consumerist, but that's the appeal of the hobby to collectors. Everyone needs a guilty hobby, something that's just fun to spend some money on. Something that relieves the stress and keeps you sane. I'm happy with gaming and comics as, at the end of the day I have books on a shelf and I like my stuff. I've always been a "stuff" person.

Please, don't misunderstand me. Of course, I am a zealot for basically calling "consumerist". Virtually all leisure time activities are, to some degree, and playing RPGs is probably one of the cheapest hobbies you can choose for yourself.

(Like, as you said, one good night out in Madrid is probably the 4e core books, and together with the Ravenloft board game.)

The thing is really, I am not so much a D&D guy as I am an RPG guy.
For me, Wizbro releasing something new doesn't necessarily mean I will buy it.

Like, in comparison, I LOVED the Thieves World game by Green Ronin (which is also d20 based, BTW).
But when they discontinued it, I didn't immediately buy their new "A Song of Ice and Fire".

For me, after my very bad impression of 4e, Wizbro will have to deliver something truly exceptional, or will "unfollow".

Not out of nerd rage, but simply because there are other games out there that are more fun at this point.





And since we are talking about Dragon Warriors...

*Tooting the horn of derail.*

Awesome, very fast-paced and beginner-friendly game, very similar to OD&D in "feel", but considerably spookier.
Written by Dave Morris, one of the fathers of Warhammer's Old World, and thus, probably best described as "Chivalry & Cthulhu".

Years OOP, and likely mostly famous through the abandonware sites that (legally) distributed scans of the old books,
it saw a very, very well-done second edition by Magnum Opus Press a few years back.

The ruleset, of course, is short, and thus sort of lacking here and there, but the adventures are quality work,
and running them by the book is funny. If you want to check them, I personally thought "Prince of Darkness" was the best
in the series, though it's more like an open setting than a narrowly cut out adventure.

[starfalconkd]

I had a lot of hope back when 4th edition came out. I signed up to DM the release module. I ended up being disappointed with how 4th played. I turned to Paizo and have embraced their rule set.
Now with 5th coming out I find myself again filled with hope. I've been playing D&D since I was eleven and got "The Red Box" (no, not the Ravenloft one ) for my birthday. I want 5th to do as well as or even eclipse Pathfinder. With Monte Cook's departure, I am concerned that this will turn out to be a disappointment. I'm more concerned that this disappointment will bury the Dungeons and Dragons brand.
All that said, I'll probably be at a gaming store on release day to check out the finished product. My hope that the developers (who love the game) will be able to produce something worthwhile.