The War in the Core

[thekristhomas]

From the Hazlani perspective, I'm wondering if Hazlik is even involved in any of these events, distracted as he is with his own plans.

The Hazlani annexation of Immol could also be viewed as a Forfarian unification, Immol being largely Forfarian in ethnicity and Forfarmax being Forfarian exclave in Hazlan.

Might the Hazlani occupation be a scheme by the Pave of Hazlan to involve Barovia in an eastern war thus directing Vaasi aggression away from Hazlan?

The gaz suggests that the Hazlani might be welcomed by the population of Immol, I imagine this might be more likely if it were Forfarian troops from Forfarmax that were leading the advance

[Pauper]

This is a fascinating discussion which I will almost certainly strip-mine for ideas.

With that said, my own scenario for an all out War-in-the-Core begins with two somewhat different events:

1. Drakov, growing bored with waiting for his allies to make their political moves, orders his armies to march against Borca prematurely.

2. The Dark Powers, realizing what is about to happen, dissolve the Core.

Turning the border between Falkovnia and Borca into even a reliable Mistway would literally decimate Drakov's forces -- one in ten would show up somewhere else in Ravenloft other than Borca, and considering the impact on supply trains, the invasion of Borca would effectively be over before it began.

Cool ideas, though. *sits back and grabs another bucket of popcorn*

--
Pauper

[thekristhomas]

This is a fascinating discussion which I will almost certainly strip-mine for ideas.

With that said, my own scenario for an all out War-in-the-Core begins with two somewhat different events:

1. Drakov, growing bored with waiting for his allies to make their political moves, orders his armies to march against Borca prematurely.

2. The Dark Powers, realizing what is about to happen, dissolve the Core.

Turning the border between Falkovnia and Borca into even a reliable Mistway would literally decimate Drakov's forces -- one in ten would show up somewhere else in Ravenloft other than Borca, and considering the impact on supply trains, the invasion of Borca would effectively be over before it began.

Cool ideas, though. *sits back and grabs another bucket of popcorn*

--
Pauper

Strip-mine away!

[thekristhomas]

So yeah I'm thinking that the Hazlani invasion of Immol is entirely an agreement between the Pave of Hazlan, Niall MacGranin and possibly some of the forces within Immol itself.

The Thaani would, I imagine, be the most anti-Hazlani of the ethnic groups, more so even than the native Barovians, Hazlik and his "Tables" stirs something of a racial memory of Illithid torture. The fact that since the GC Hazlan has occupied the remnants of Bluetspur would, I imagine, make them suspect to the Thaani.

I could, however, be completely wrong about that, Bluetspur was the Thaani homeland after all, maybe gaining access to even a fraction of the motherland and possible important sites and relics that may remain (or may have gone with Bluetspur) could be enough to persuade them.

The Forfarian segment of Immol would likely be in favour of the Hazlani annexation as it is kinda a Forfarian unification, which is part of the reason Nial MacGranin has lent his support, and troops to the enterprise.

The Barovians might take the chance to be free of Strahd, the Forfarian Hazlani seem familiar which makes it seem less daunting.

The Pave is taking an educated guess as to the responses of both Strahd and Othmar. He is hoping that Strahd, occupied as he is in the west, might not respond instantly, which, the Pave hopes, will give Othmar the encouragement he needs to mount his own invasion of Barovia, which should, the Pave calculates, put an end to the possibility of a crusade by the mother church against Hazlik, and by extension the Pave himself.

[ewancummins]

My concept involves a conjunction.

Without one, war in the Core is too easy to shut down via border closure.

So, if the darklords could leave their domains and borders cannot be sealed...


Drakov is quite possibly going to conquer multiple domains, unless somebody assassinates him first or he's killed in an early battle. He has a larger, better army than most other rulers, lots of grain and timber, several castles and fortified cities, etc.

He could easily overrun Mordent. It's got only a small population.
The darklord isn't the political ruler, and may not even care that foreigners have invaded.

Dementlieu is trickier, because of D'Honaire's mind control powers. That could flip things around in a very bad way.
But if Drakov assassinates D'Honaire in an attack on the Lord Governor and the Council( a plausible plan for an evil warlord not bound by notions of honorable warfare), thenDementlieu will probably fall. Gunpowder is nice. But look at the population and resource differences. And the armies.
Whips and shortswords? Good for keeping the plebs in line. Those whips are going to look awfully silly in battle against Falkovnian infantry.


Richemulot is vulnerable. Wererats rule, sure. But Drakov kicked their rat tails once before!


Darkon without the zombie border closure is also vulnerable, though still a difficult prospect for conquest. Azalin outclasses Drakov in terms of sheer power. A lot depends on what Azalin does when he realizes the Conjuction has begun.
He may leave Darkon and enter the Mists, trying to escape the Demiplane. He might head to Barovia to settle the old feud with Strahd.
If he stays at home, I think he can defeat any invasion. If he leaves, maybe the Faklovnians can annex part of the kingdom. Maybe not.


Borca would be very vulnerable.
That poisoning trick at the border is great. When it suddenly becomes unavailable, are Borcan brute squads and rent collectors really going to stand in battle against the army of a skilled, battle hardened commander?
The Borcans might manage to assassinate Drakov. But he does have good saving throws.


I'm basing this all on the Black Box, first and foremost.


4000 Wererats in Richemulot? Holy smokes! Is that from a GAZ? But later sources do tend to ramp up the population levels, monsters, and magic.

[ewancummins]

Something else:

What's Gondegal up to?

[jamesfirecat]

4000 Wererats in Richemulot? Holy smokes! Is that from a GAZ? But later sources do tend to ramp up the population levels, monsters, and magic.

4000 Wererrats is from Gaz 3, I can look up the exact page if you wish.

Also I disagree with the argument/concept that border closings are the only reason Vlad hasn't been able to conquer other domains.

Every attempt he's made at conquering has been foiled by the nature of that domian/its ruler (his troops being mind controlled, running out of food, being poisoned, and they were poisoned by actual people rather than the domain effect) rather than a border being closed.

In the past after three years of warfare he kicked the rats out of one city whose human population was on his side/were his subjects. I don't think he's likely to have as much luck in a situation where the wererats are paw in glove with the actual legitimate authority he's trying to overthrow.

I think you're overselling Drakov's/Falkovnia's capabilities.

[ewancummins]

Possibly.

I think Drakov was made (relatively) weaker and dumber in materials by later writers.
They added stuff like him being hidebound in his understanding of warfare and opposed to using gunpowder, when in the Black Box he is described as a cunning, skilled tactician who is not bound by any particular code of honor.
And nobody in the Black Box seems to uses guns and cannon.

Other darklords got major power ups from their domains growing in population and magic level.
Some tech boosts, too.

Black Box Drakov should probably have new model troopers with muskets and socket bayonets by the GAZ era, alongside his old model forces.

[The Lesser Evil]

Possibly.

I think Drakov was made (relatively) weaker and dumber in materials by later writers.
They added stuff like him being hidebound in his understanding of warfare and opposed to using gunpowder, when in the Black Box he is described as a cunning, skilled tactician who is not bound by any particular code of honor.
And nobody in the Black Box seems to uses guns and cannon.

Other darklords got major power ups from their domains growing in population and magic level.
Some tech boosts, too.

Black Box Drakov should probably have new model troopers with muskets and socket bayonets by the GAZ era, alongside his old model forces.

I'm going to have to disagree with you here. The later materials at least gave him the Ministries, which gave him some kind of infrastructure beyond thuggish military rule. In the Black Box, he really has no experience nation building or holding onto things for long periods of time (before Ravenloft, he was "just a henchman". It's also implied he received Falkovnia as basically a boon handed out to him from the Dark Poweers. "Ravenloft has given him..."

Poor decision making skills (not learning from his mistakes- going into Darkon and having his butt handed to him four times) and poor impulse control (demanding a person get impaled every night!) have been there from the very beginning. Furthermore, he's such a light threat that most of the other darklords barely take notice of him at all- Azalin being the sole exception, whom looks down on him much like his old employers. Later presentations actually had the other domains actually take steps to defend against him- like the Treaty of Four Towers.

[thekristhomas]

I do find it interesting that Drakov never made use of the GC, it may be tied to his inability to see the influence of the DPs, which I believe is black box canon.

That is the main difficulty I see with Drakov, which is why IMHO he needs Aderre, who is very much aware of DPs.

Part of where I'm coming from in this thread is the "natural" progression from one generation of rulers to the next, many DLs and even more rulers are mortal, even if they are long lived. Drakov, canonically, is perpetually disappointed by his offspring, a sentiment which led Azalin to immortality, but which, for myself, would inspire something akin to a death wish in Drakov, yes consciously he wishes to leave his kingdom to his heir, but subconsciously he doesn't believe the land can survive without him and so isn't planning for a long term future, but a short term glory the he hopes will be his legacy, even if his bloodline and nation are wiped out in the process

[jamesfirecat]

I do find it interesting that Drakov never made use of the GC, it may be tied to his inability to see the influence of the DPs, which I believe is black box canon.

Didn't the Grand Conjunction last for only like a few days, maybe a week at most?

Drakov, or any ruler for that matter would need much longer than the GC lasted just to properly mobilize their army for war/invasion. Even if he had perfect knowledge of what the GC was/how it worked, it would have needed to last for months for him to make use of it and I'm pretty sure it was nowhere near that long...

[ewancummins]

I do find it interesting that Drakov never made use of the GC, it may be tied to his inability to see the influence of the DPs, which I believe is black box canon.

Didn't the Grand Conjunction last for only like a few days, maybe a week at most?

Drakov, or any ruler for that matter would need much longer than the GC lasted just to properly mobilize their army for war/invasion. Even if he had perfect knowledge of what the GC was/how it worked, it would have needed to last for months for him to make use of it and I'm pretty sure it was nowhere near that long...

I don't know how long it lasted in TSR published game world history.

It may not even have a canonical duration.

[ewancummins]

Was it the whole year 740? Since clusters were shifting and forming for years afterward, was the end of the GC actually the end, or were some of the later changed to the world aftershocks?

[thekristhomas]

There were definitely aftershocks that continued after the GC was over, Liffe was one IIRC. As far as the duration of the GC, I was under the impression that it was at least a few months, based on my reading of FtS/RoE, but I think the implied canonical duration was quite short, the experience of the Dark Twins, for example, seems to suggest that it happened in a single night. It could be that different domains experienced the GC differently and therefore mark different periods as "the" GC. The gaz descriptions of the events and changes of the GC do tend to be sudden, but it could be that they were not exactly contemporary.

[The Lesser Evil]

If you want to go by it, we might look at the Lawgivers/Baneities for some kind of guide. Ffrom the Day of Penance (New Year's Day, the first day of the Grand Conjunction and when the Baneite clerics lost spellcasting power) to the Celebration of the Reemeergence (first full moon in August, when the Baneite clerics got their spells back.) So we might take this as a period of 7 months?