Café de Nuit

I personally think its a cheap shot. The dwarf cant even speak proper english, why would his mule have a stuffy name like jonathan? I smell a bomb PC and have already let my suspicions be known to the DM.

Jonathan looks like a 21 year old man-not a boy. Raf's dwarf would not know he was recently a boy.

Multiple players have expressed some concern, so I'll address it in the open forum-

Well, to be fair, Jonathon isn't the name the dwarf gave that mule. He established it that his PC bought the mule from humans. His folk live underground- they don't have mules of their own. That's probably why he was suckered into buying an ornery beast- his 'knightly steed.'

Of course, it was Raf the player that really picked the mule's name. Raf did not clear the name with me; I was surprised by that, but the rest of the scene was kosher. It's a misuse of player knowledge , but no doubt was intended as a joke- not malicious.

Raf's PC is not a bomb character.

Jmatyr is right about the 'boy' part- Jon is now a fully grown man, and has a short beard if he hasn't shaved. He is not a child in appearance.

To be fair to Raf, that change occured after his last PC died. so he may have missed it. Raf, you should edit the 'boy' stuff.

Raf has asked me about the Middle English- if it's 'too much.'' Is it too much for y'all? Be honest.

Personally to a dwarf most humans are considered "boys" until at least about forty or more years old so that does not bother me at all .
Also the whole "stead" thing for a mule is a classic joke in D&D about Dwarves being suckered in to buying a mule as their "War Horse" . Especially if the dwarf in question is from an underground society and they don't use equine type creatures in that type of environment .

Lord Skybolt wrote:Personally to a dwarf most humans are considered "boys" until at least about forty or more years old so that does not bother me at all .
Also the whole "stead" thing for a mule is a classic joke in D&D about Dwarves being suckered in to buying a mule as their "War Horse" . Especially if the dwarf in question is from an underground society and they don't use equine type creatures in that type of environment .

True- he might think of any younger human as a boy. Most of the party is young, so he should also refer to Karim, Franz, and Alain as boys.

WTF?!

Seems like I have missed a bit of the discussion lately.

JMatyr, frankly, you got to be less of a diva.
Not only is the way you keep overplaying Jon's role as the party's overpowered "agent of evil" somewhat mildly annoying, you also tend to take your guesses as a player as the in-game reality only the DM should manage.


Or, neither did I complain about your power-gaming attitude.

Nor about your totally illogical desire to force Jon (when he was still a boy) as the party's de-facto leader and decision-maker.

Nor did I take offense in you ultimately killing off my character, when your endless bitching culminated in the party members ultimately turning against each other.
- And don't say you hadn't seen THAT coming for a while.



But I will take offense if you continue to crap up the game with the "Oh-my-character-has-to-be-the-ruler-of-all-world-and-noone-can-even-scratch-him" babbling, and at the same time try to put down anyone who tries to play out an idea of his own.

So, in short, what about swallowing down that obnoxious attitude, and getting a little sense of humor?
- Whenever you came up with something oh-so-original, noone complained either.



And, of course, NO, my character was not meant as a bomb, and the DM knows the ideas I had that led to his creation.

"Chaucer-Gate" - a nod to Norzak speaking in an accent I had the hardest time understanding; my character's language is Middle English, and should not be that hard to understand - if it is indeed so hard, I am always willing to provide modern translations, like I already did via PM, BTW.
Of course, the first moments are intended to alienate, to establish the character. The basic idea was that, since Cirdan was developed around his high Intimidation score, and as thus, a character centered on social interaction, this character would be the exact opposite, because nobody would effectively know what he was saying. - So others could do the social part, and thus have more of the game, from parts I think I already had my share; I can do things like that from time to time, you know.

"Boy-Gate" - of course, I didn't read the 100+ pages of DIN A4 the group has played out since I left; my mistake. What about giving me a friendly note before, telling about those changes... Or simply being a bit less thin-skinned?

"Mule-Gate" - yeah, this was meant a friendly joke, and I could have laughed about that and gone on, in your place. Maybe it had an implication, though:

...No, not "you're a castrated donkey". More like, "respice post te, hominem te esse memento". - Everyone is happy with you trying to play the first violin in this orchestra. Just don't overplay it.

Wow. I call you out on your cheap shot and this is how you act? Like an animal backed into a corner I see you have to retaliate.

JMatyr, frankly, you got to be less of a diva.
Not only is the way you keep overplaying Jon's role as the party's overpowered "agent of evil" somewhat mildly annoying, you also tend to take your guesses as a player as the in-game reality only the DM should manage.

Jonathan has never acted as the leader until Cirdan died. Before that, he was a whiny boy who wanted to leave the moot house.

Im confused to what you mean by "guesses the in game reality" I would like you to cite an instance of Jon pretending he's the dm because:

Yeah, I have been waiting for this moment a long time.



Mists and darkness.

Red eyes between the hanging leaves.

[Batman voice:]

I TOLD THEE THAT THOU COULDST NOT FLEE MINE WRATH, JONATHAN

Behind the hollow neighing of a horse, infernal to those who know what it might mean...

Theres an instance of YOU, Rafeal, not okaying a post about your new pc's introduction and using PLAYER KNOWLEDGE to illicit a response from the players. Thats an instance of a PC over stepping their boundaries putting on the DM hat.

"Overpowered agent of Evil" because of the weremink thing? Thats a condition, like Alain's blindness, that i earned in game. Kinda like Cirdan's batman voice. No one complained that you were too powerful. And if Jonathan seems tough to you Rafeal, thats because he's a rogue with sneak attack (that adds extra damage doesn't it?) and I am smart enough as a roleplayer to use in game mechanics like Bluff and Diplomacy to help out in social situations. Having all the plate mail in the world doesn't help when you get caught flat footed against a rogue.

So please, site some example of your proposed "guesses the in game reality" comment.

Or, neither did I complain about your power-gaming attitude.

That one is hilarious. I started with no armor, GP, or FOOD for Pelor's sake! i was never even given a cut of the treasure until AFTER Woultha was defeated. My Pc's attitude has been one of fear and compliance. I would ask for some examples but, this one I feel you Rafeal, are unclear as to the definition.

Nor about your totally illogical desire to force Jon (when he was still a boy) as the party's de-facto leader and decision-maker.

Thats just a dumb statement. Jonathan wanted to go home, like any boy would. Jonathan has a racial bias towards the gypsies, he didn't trust them and was told they are evil A child told something is bad will generally believe it is bad unless personal experience tells him otherwise. Thats called Roleplaying Rafeal, it is the antithesis of power gaming.

Nor did I take offense in you ultimately killing off my character, when your endless bitching culminated in the party members ultimately turning against each other.
- And don't say you hadn't seen THAT coming for a while.

Thats displacement of blame. Rafeal, YOU ultimately got Cirdan killed by menacing the moot folk. These are people that have been living under fear of the Rider in Iron, and the Witch. When Cirdan started giving them the red eye and the batman voice you riled em up. And Cirdan started that fight as well;

Cirdan seems to fix Jon as the youngster speaks up, but then is somehow distracted.

For a moment, you might have thought that the half-elf would have considered to attack the boy...
_________________
Noticeably worn out and tired, Cirdan trots behiond Ben, his sword leaned over his shoulder like a club.

[Batman voice:]"It won't hurt to look. It will hurt to understand."

Jon, in particular, will notice how the red eyes of the Elven knight remain on him a moment longer than it would be healthy and sensible...

Cirdan remains staring at the boy for some time.

A strange, whistling sound can be heard from under the demon helmet the dark knight is wearing, and Cirdan's body seems to tremble...

Suddenly, the knight rises his huge sword...

To put it back in its sheath.

The ghastly, whistling sound grows louder until its very clear that the knight is desperately trying to surpress a fit of laughter.

He reaches for his backpack and pulls out the rusty sword he had taken in Wollutha's ruin and, still chuckling like a hen, offers it to John.

[Batman voice:]"If you behave like a real man, it's about time you get a real sword. - Mwahahahahaha..."

Thats 3 examples of your PC Cirdan, antagonizing and threatening my PC and how Cirdan started that fight.


Now, here's where Cirdan messed up:

[Batman voice:] "No."

Cirdan has pulled off his helmet, and his red eyes - not the eyes of a half-elven, but red slits glowing in a light that definitely has no natural source
- seem to pierce through the people who stand by.

"NO."

"Our path is cursed, and those people are dead because of us.
- Look at me - LOOK AT ME!!! Look into my eyes. THIS is the price you pay for defying the lords of the mists, and no less. You, people, go, go, and leave us."

[Still with the Batman voice, to his group:]

"We have a traitor among us, someone who has been tainted by the mists even more than I have.
- I won't make any step further into chaos unless we clear things up.
If Dorgio stays behind, I will, too."

Your PC admits to the assembled group of frightened moot people that you are "cursed by the mists" You just told them that you are a monster.

Now as far as "who threw the first punch":

[Batman voice:] "Give me a second, folks."

Cirdan will turn to Jon and walk towards the boy.

Should Jon not draw a weapon,
in which case Cirdan would attack him immediately with his sword,
the dark knight will simply step forward and slap the boy in the face.

[Power attack, non-lethal damage, should be enough to TKO Jon.]

[Batman voice:]"ALAIN, who do you think is the traitor?"

The question might come all of a sudden, but now that you think of it,
Cirdan had isolated himself from the group for way longer back than when you fought Wollutha.
_________________

You started that fight rafeal, I finished it

Jonathan sees Cirdan running sluggishly towards him, his sword at the deadly ready. The moment the Knight reaches him, Jonathan stabs with all of his might at Cirdan. The silver blade once again finds blood-stabbing true the armored figure before him. Not waiting to see how well the blade strikes, the boy tumbles nearly twenty feet away, back towards Norzak.


"You're not the devil, you're just practice."

To repaint this scene:
a) Jonathan is scared and wants to go home, at least thats what he says.
b) Cirdan decides the boy is 'whining' and slaps him near unconcious.
c) Cirdan tells the gathered group of villagers in a terrifying voice: See what happens when you defy the lords of the mists.
d) When Jonathan ran you pursued him to "cut off his head"
e) Jonathan critical attacked the poor excuse for a knight and dropped him AFTER other PC's and NPC's also attacked him.


You have no one to blame but yourself for Cirdans death, he would still be in the group save for your poor decisions.

But I will take offense if you continue to crap up the game with the "Oh-my-character-has-to-be-the-ruler-of-all-world-and-noone-can-even-scratch-him" babbling, and at the same time try to put down anyone who tries to play out an idea of his own.

Once again I ask you to cite an example for this. All I read from the statement is that you are offended YOU are not the "leader"

Denoting it is "babbling" I assume you mean Jonathan has said as much or that I the player roleplayed it that way. again, without examples its just baseless bitching.

"Chaucer-Gate" - a nod to Norzak speaking in an accent I had the hardest time understanding; my character's language is Middle English, and should not be that hard to understand - if it is indeed so hard, I am always willing to provide modern translations, like I already did via PM, BTW.
Of course, the first moments are intended to alienate, to establish the character. The basic idea was that, since Cirdan was developed around his high Intimidation score, and as thus, a character centered on social interaction, this character would be the exact opposite, because nobody would effectively know what he was saying. - So others could do the social part, and thus have more of the game, from parts I think I already had my share; I can do things like that from time to time, you know.

I actually like your dwarf's roleplaying of a character that doesn't seem tainted by the horrors of ravenloft and has something of a language barrier like Franz, Norzak, and to an extent Dorgio have. THATS good roleplaying.

However, phonetically, when a character speaks in quotations ("ie") those are the sounds he makes. If your dialog is all tussed up because of the way you are writing it, it isn't a matter of how creative your prose is, it becomes a)unreadable and b)unintelligent. I have no problem with you practicing Middle english in your descriptions, but in dialog, thats how you sound. I'd prefer if you KEPT roleplaying him that way.
That said, I don't point out ANYWHERE that you are a bad player or character for it. I just told the DM (like other players it appears) I could not understand your posts so I was scrolling past them.

"Boy-Gate" - of course, I didn't read the 100+ pages of DIN A4 the group has played out since I left; my mistake. What about giving me a friendly note before, telling about those changes... Or simply being a bit less thin-skinned?

I was just pointing that out so that you could amend your post. I assumed you did not read any of the campaign since your exit, but your PC assumed Jon was a boy without any reason. That is the note saying, "hey, Jon's a man now, not a boy." And you will also note that I didn't level "player knowledge" accusations at you for that. Its just a training issue.

"Mule-Gate" - yeah, this was meant a friendly joke, and I could have laughed about that and gone on, in your place. Maybe it had an implication, though:

...No, not "you're a castrated donkey". More like, "respice post te, hominem te esse memento". (Look behind you! Remember that you are but a man!)- Everyone is happy with you trying to play the first violin in this orchestra. Just don't overplay it.

This is an admission that it was a cheap shot, however the intent.

I can also take a joke (a joke in itself) . I didn't mind that. It was when 3 other players PM'd me asking if I thought your PC was a bomb that I brought my suspicions to the DM. I have played with bomb pc's before and they usually begin with similar "jokes". I told the DM that, with the 3 things combined: Your Mule's name, Your appearance out of the mists with red eyes, and then, the capper, using the Batman Voice made us assume Cirdan had returned. It was a nice scene, but it made me and other players question who the DM was here. That was a player knowledge move no matter how you paint it.

DM annoucement:

Intro scene/fake out:
Raf made a joke. It was metagaming to name the mule after Jon, use the 'Batman voice', etc. I don't beleive that his intent was malicious. He was trying to be funny, and he over did it.

Power gaming: I have not seen any problems with power-gaming, from any of the players. On the contrary, overall, I'm quite pleased with the excellent roleplaying from all of you.

Middle English:

Most English speakers have difficulty with Middle English, This is to be expected.

Raf's clear intent { clear to me, because we spoke about it} was to role-play his character as an innocent, un-worldly, alien, a dwarf not familiar with the strange surface world. The archaic language is meant to show all that.

The issue here would seem to be phonetic writing vs the use of Middle English spellings. Thing is, Middle English has few silent letters, compared with the modern form of the language. For example: you actually hear the K in knight, just like in Monty- Python's Holy Grail! It is true that Chaucer would have left many silent Es at the ends of words- but earlier forms of Middle English would not, You may pronounce the E. Therefore, Raf is already writing phonetically. You should read his posts as is.

Now, if the posts still don't make any sense to you guys, then there really is an issue. Some difficulty in interpretation is intended, but if it simply shuts down roleplaying PC interactions, that's too much. Raf had foreseen this might be an issue, and he asked me about it BEFORE anyone complained. I told him at the time that I didn't think it would be a problem. If that is not the case, let's handle it in a respectful and mature fashion, guys.


Cirdan's death:
NPCs did NOT kill Cirdan. Cirdan was slain by the party, and not just by Jon. That's a fact. The only PC who didn't make a lethal force attack on Cirdan was Benn. There is no reason to argue this now. No rules were violated, no player knowledge was used. A player made a decision that, in retrospect, would appear to have been a mistake that got his PC killed. This happens. Time to move on, folks.

smack-talking/flaming: Cut it out. If you have an issue with another player, bring it up in a respectful fashion. If you have a concern that you think I should address, PM me. I may not always make the ruling that you'd like, but I will always listen to my players.

Any questions?

I admit I thought Raf's new character might be part of some plot. I stand corrected.

As far as the Middle English, I do have difficulty reading it. Like you said, it's understandable if you put some work into it, but the phonetic spelling can be distracting.


On another note, what would the PCs know about Van Richten? I think you may have mentioned this before but I can't remember where. Is he dead in your campaign, and if so would the PCs know that he was dead, or at least missing?

Van Richten, what the PCs know:

Alain, Karim, Galandel- nothing, nada, zilch.

Franz- knows of a Darkonian charlatan by that name, wanted in Falkovnia for 'illegal, unauthorized treasure-hunting.' He's heard conflicting stories about VR as a real hero, a crackpot, and a criminal.

Benn- Benn has heard and read accounts of Doctor Rudolph Van Richten and his monster-hunting exploits. He does not know the details of the Good Doctor's life beyond the basic outline: a hunter of monsters who lost his son to the creatures of darkness and has written books about his experiences. He has never heard of the place for which the dwarf is searching. The man is missing and feared dead- last Benn had heard.

Dorgio: Same as Benn, only he doesn't know that Doctor Van Richten is missing/dead.


.

I can let things stand like they are now, no problem. I have said what I wanted to, make your own opinions about it.

As to issues with my character's portrayal, not only did I backup that with the DM, but, in the five years that I am playing and DMing PbPs at this website, there was never a moment when I would have reacted with anything but friendliness to anyone who objected to any in-game development. That's because most of the visitors of this website usually know how to ask for such things politely. - And neither did I ever treat anyone in an insulting or disrespectful fashion when I had concerns about his or her opinions, or way of gaming. - Nor did I ever try to "bomb" a game.

So, for the future, I would insist we return to that polite, if not always completely amicable way of solving those issues.

Brock Marsh Runoff wrote:As far as the Middle English, I do have difficulty reading it. Like you said, it's understandable if you put some work into it, but the phonetic spelling can be distracting.

Like I said before, I had that concern when I created the character; I can include modern translations to future posts, if you want. That was never an issue for me.

Yes, Raf, please do include such translation in future posts. That will make it easier for the other players, but allow you to continue using Middle English- which I think was a good roleplaying decision that really makes the PC shine.

That should settle that issue.

JMatyr and Raf-

From my perspective, I see two players- friends of mine, with bruised egos and flaring tempers. Both of you obviously felt that you had good reasons to be annoyed with the other. I think that you mostly just misread one another- at least, that's how it looks from my POV.

For all players:

Don't use player knowledge. If you aren't sure about something, run it by me first.

Don't be rude. No name-calling. This is a friendly game, let's keep it that way.

Can we call you names? I have some choice ones for you...

I think there's exactly one person in the history of the campaign who had a right to be sort of upset, and that would be Norzak for his character getting eaten off screen by the random encounter table. He instead rolled with it and came back with a new toon with no complaint (at least not public.) A lesson to us all, if you ask me.

And what's this about treasure? There was treasure in this game? .

On a more serious note, I don't actually mind the old english. Hell, if I don't understand it it'll help me rp more accurately, tbh.

Adam wrote:Can we call you names? I have some choice ones for you...

I think there's exactly one person in the history of the campaign who had a right to be sort of upset, and that would be Norzak for his character getting eaten off screen by the random encounter table. He instead rolled with it and came back with a new toon with no complaint (at least not public.) A lesson to us all, if you ask me.

And what's this about treasure? There was treasure in this game? .

On a more serious note, I don't actually mind the old english. Hell, if I don't understand it it'll help me rp more accurately, tbh.

I would have to say treasure is that dress we found. Also Cirdan had some stored somewhere! And yes my pc did die, but that happens sometimes. This is only a game after all. No knead to get upset about this or that thing! Ask ewan, I didn't bitch at all when me dwarfie died *sniff*

And as for that old style english I don' tactually unerstand it fully, but I really like your roleplaying! So maybe just pm me the translation or add it to the post if you can, please! Thanks