Café de Nuit

Congrats Lord Soth, it was a very nice description, I loved your comments during the battle!

Result: For me the Chuul isn't for 1st level PCs...

Very, very nice! Thank you SO much!

On the other hand... 5 mins after the PCs saw the Chuul... another one comes. And after that another one... And another one. The PCs are supposed to be able to take 5-6 encounters of their level in a day.

But I have surmised that no, at 1st level the encounter is not 100 XP/player char but 75 XP. The Playtested who said "100 for each 1st level PC" wasn't telling the exact rules, he was giving an example. He also said that a 7th level monster gives 300 XP when in the Podcast we learn that it gives 350 XP.

"Close enough" You may say. "No big difference". Well 500 XP means 6-7 chars of 1st level. And yes according to Lord's Soth's example 6-7 can take down one and then another one without a TPK.
And the Chuul is 9 levels above the norm. So yes, the system is stable.

To Lord Soth: You're great. Also things weren't as hard for the heroes because:
About charge, it gives a +1 to hit rolls.
Nobody dies. You die at -hp, not -10. So even the halfling snack is alive
Corrin could heal himself with a minor action using lay on hands.
The wizard could use his wand to get a +2 to one hit roll with the wand.

About the tactics:
The heroes should have started using action points earlier. And the paladin should have used mark and then run and run away, leaving the chuul with no option than chase him while slowed or get 8 hp per round.

About charge, it gives a +1 to hit rolls.

Good to know. But it wouldn't have made any difference, though. Corrin rolled to low to benefit from a +1, and Kathra rolled a 20 (Besides, if she'd charged, she wouldn't have been able to get off her Per Day maneuver, which resulted in a huge pay off).

Nobody dies. You die at -hp, not -10. So even the halfling snack is alive

If I remember right, you take your Bloodied score, make it a negative number, and that's when you die. The Halfling is Bloodied at 13, so that means he dies at -13. He got knocked down to -14, so that's all she wrote for Nancy Drew.

Corrin could heal himself with a minor action using lay on hands.

It certainly would've saved him (He would've ended up at -9 instead of -13). But being only 5 hit points from max, most players would've probably opted not to go that route, either (Only three Lay on Hands per day, after all). Besides, he used his Minor Action for Channel Divinity: Divine Strength in the hopes of inflicting more damage with the next hit. So he never got the chance to use it.

The heroes should have started using action points earlier.

True. Corrin, at least, could've benefitted from that.

And the paladin should have used mark and then run and run away, leaving the chuul with no option than chase him while slowed or get 8 hp per round.

I thought of that, but that's something that's already been changed before D&DXP (Apparently it wasn't fixed before the character sheets were printed out). So I didn't see a point in taking advantage of an obviously broken rule which has apparently already been fixed.

What? No "Mark & run"? Are you sure?
Here goes down the drain my Eladrin paladin marker/archer...
Really they're making an effort for the system to be unbreakable.

We will see how it stands the test of millions trying to break it, when more and more books come to the picture.

And though the lay on hands can be used 3/day... the chuul is a burn your powers or die... as your example showed. I just checked his sheet and you're right. He's bloodied at 13 hp, not 15, my wrong. (Lay on hands for Corrin is also 6 hp) So, poor Corin died for just 1 hp?


Rules I fished out:

NOTE: These are rules I found by checking here and there in the WotC forums. They're not verified! Some are taken from Enworld.

There's no "grapple," ; just a "grab," which is a Strength attack opposed by Reflex defense and immobilizes the target; they can escape with either Acrobatics against your Reflex, or Athletics against your Fortitude. So the DM told me, anyway;

I guess that to overpower someone, you just roll strength against Fortitude or strength against strength.

Running Jumps - If you can move 4 squares in a straight line before making your jump check, halve the jump DC.

Temporary Hit Points - Temporary hit points last until the end of an encounter. Temporary hit points from multiple sources do not stack. (That means that the Paladin's bolstering strike can only grant temp HP to the Paladin once - unless he's hit and loses them). Temporary hit points are still used before regular hit points.

Tumble - It's not something you can just do with an Athletics roll. If you want to tumble, you need to take the feat.

Coup de Grace - If you can coup de grace a helpless opponent, you do max weapon damage.

Lava - In 4e, if you fall into lava you die. No save.

"No instant death!" Yeah, right. As if we will believe you again.
And a good point made in the WotC forums: Most classes have abilities that push you back. Whatever the cost don't fight with a lava pit behind your back, even if it's 30 feet... Unless of course you're epic and you want to use your daily "after you die" powers

Here is a review of a playtester. No cries of ultimate joy as if the 4th edition is the best thing that happened in this decade. No shouts of anger and hate as if the 4th edition is the worst thing that happened in the decade and the final step in WotC plot to kill D&D.

Question: Anyone knows where we can find those preview adventures everyone seems to have played in enWorld?

I figured it'd be close with the Chull and that 5 level 1s taking down a lvl 10 seemed off.
It's probably the most extreme example of the system: first level characters pushed to the max and down a man (which would make all the difference).

But they did it!

Note the paladin IMO wasn't played very well. No offence Lord Soth, we know how much death knights like Paladins. He could use a minor action to lay on hands and his action point+Healing surge. That would have landed him to -2 hp.

And no, the most extreme example would be pit fiend against 180 1st level chars.

Well, I'm mostly just a devil's advocate for 4e, arguing against the majority that's hatin'. I actually fully expected them to get creamed.

But I'll run my own playtest of the fight later tonight.

Playtest run. I'll do a blow-by-blow later.
All 6 PCs and most of the daily powers tapped. No fatalities and the two front-liners only bloodied once each, with only one bloodied at the end of the fight. 8 looong rounds with 5 "1"s rolls and only a single "20". Thankfully that was from Kathra's daily so it did a heck of alot of damage.

Chulls are nasty buggers in 3e so I imagine they're top of the line for level 10s too, so it's still impressive. I don't imagine they'll be able to do too much after, but there was a couple dailys left and a quick rest with surges would put most of them back in fighting form. Anything else hittable more often would probably go down easy.

Note the paladin IMO wasn't played very well. No offence Lord Soth, we know how much death knights like Paladins. He could use a minor action to lay on hands and his action point+Healing surge. That would have landed him to -2 hp.

He would've landed at -9, actually. Rememeber that Erais had healed him, and put him within five points of his max HP. So Lay on Hands would've just netted him 5 hit points. The Chuul would've then reduced him to -9, and you can't use Healing Surges when you're KOed.

But yeah, Corrin would still be alive (Although he still would've been KOed) had he used Lay on Hands. Though if the DM in that particular fight were feeling vindictive, he could've Coup-de-Grace'd Corrin, Kathra, and Erais and wiped out half the party.

Lotsa semi-official stuff here:
http://www.critical-hits.com/2008/02/28/dd-xp-seminar/

Okay, the Jester playtest of Chull vs six level 1 PCs.

I set the stage with the battlemat and rolled the distance randomly: 10+1d6 squares. “1” on the die so they start 11 squares away. I set the PCs up in three rows of two spaced apart
X X
X X
X X
Initiative is rolled. Chull sets its standard for unecassarily high rolls with a “17” while (almost) everyone else rolls a “10” or less. This is the standard rolls for a the test...
Chull – 27
Riardon – 13+
Corrin – 13-
Skamos – 11
Erais – 5
Tira – 4
Kathra – 2

Round One
FIGHT!
The chull opens up with a single move closing the gap. Unfortunetly, with 6 movement it can't get close enough to land a hit, even when running (8sq). This is where my lack of 4e hard knowledge shows up as I don't know how readying is handled in this edition, so the chull can't prepare an attack when someone steps into range.

Riardon is next. He has a bow so it should already be readied. He moves up and uses Hunter's Quarry (minor) and Carefully Attack (standard) to launch a powerful +10 vs AC attack but still needs a “17” to hit but will do 1d0+1d8+4 dmg. He get's a “1” setting the stage for many to come.
Corrin charges in. I like the new reach rules as you can get right up without taking the extra needless AoO. Corrin misses, but charging is now a standard so he still has a move; he trades that for a minor and marks the chull. It is now -2 to hit anyone else and gets hurt if it tries.
Skamos is next and moves up then uses his sleep but needs more than a “4” to beat the chull's will defence. But the chull is slowed, whatever game effect that has...
Erias uses an at-will attack but misses wildly, another roll not above “5”. Tira the warlock steps up with her daily curse, they're not messing around with a face-eating chull! And of course a stunning miss with a “3” on the die.
Now it's the dwarf fighter's turn. She draws her weapon (minor) and charges. “1”. She still has a move which she trades for a minor and marks the chull. Regardless of which frontliner it attacks, it has a -2.

Round 2
Mister Chull (when you're this big, people call you mister) starts with a double attack. 50% chance of either target so I roll randomly. Iit goes for Kathra, and takes 8 radiant damage from Corrin's challenge. First blood.
It responds by savaging Kathra for 21 damage with two hits from its powerful cloaws, but misses with its follow-up paralization attack. The hardy dwarf is bursting with fortitude.

Riardon is back up to bat, but most of his powers are mobility based or good against multiple foes; thankfully his careful attack still has the best melee bonus in the party. He shoots. “1”. This is the third natural 1 for those keeping track.
Corring tries a holy strike (miss) while shifting closer to a flanking with Kathra and renews his mark. Skamos activates his tiefling racial, infernal wrath, and lets out his encounter ability, force bolt for a solid “5”, miss. Erias moves up and uses his first healing wave to pump-up Kathra for 14 healing, she's only down 7 now. Tira tries an encounter power, and gets a ”9” Things are not looking good...
Kathra shifts into a flank with Corrin, then steps up with her daily brutal strike. She has a pretty poopy atatck roll and needs a “19” to hit, even with the combat advantage. She gets a “20”!! 35 damage!The chull is not happy. She renews her challenge as well.

Round 3
Chull strikes Kathra again, so another 8 dmg from Corrin's mark. He only hits once for 8 dmg himself, then shifts out of the flank.

Riardon shoots and misses then pops an action point for a second shot onky to miss by one. This was probably where I goofed up the most. Not being used to AP I didn't use them enough, especially by the end...
Corrin shifts to the side, challenges, and uses On Pain of Death, a daily, which misses but still does 6 damage, bloodying the chull. I quite like how the big powers ussually have some effect, even if they miss.
Skamos uses magic missile for a dissapointing miss for the once reliable fallback. Erias unleashes a cascale of light with antother “1”. Thankfully its a daily so the chull still gets whumped for 6 damage. 66 damage so far, roughly 33/round.
Tira barely misses with an eldrict blast. Kathra shifts, swings and misses & challenges.

Round 4
Chull double-hits Corrin and paralyzes him with the follow-up. A painful 21 damage to the halfling. The small paladin attemps to have the chull re-roll one of his assaults but the second blow still connects.

Riardon shoots and misses. Corrin fails his save and, since I don't know immob that well, I'll assume he can't make other actions. More than likely he just can move/shift while the chull has a combat advantage on him, 4e doesn't seem like the game where you're forced to sit out again and again while you bomb saves.
Skamos misses with a MM. Erias, seeing the sorry state of the front liners, lets off his last healing surge that catches both: 19 to Corrin and 14 to Kathra (Looking back at this I probably read the wrong numbers as the HS shouldn't have been so high, so they probably should have been in worse shape at the end. But, arguably, they also still have their second winds and Corrin has lay on hands).
Tira misses with an eldrict blast. Kathra challenges & swings getting a “1”. That would be #5 not including Corrin's save attempt.
This also marks the first round they didn't tag the chull.

At the end of this round Mrs. Jester groaned at my dice rolling and took over saying she would “show me how it's done.”

Round 5
The gods be mercifull as the chull swings twice at Kathra, choosing to go for the dangerous target over doing crazy damage to the paralyzed paladin, a judgement call on behalf prompted by Kathra's marking. There's only a single hit for 10 more damage to the brave dwarven fighter for a total of 11 dmg.

Riardon gets a “1”. Corrin fails his save. Skamos flubs a MM.
Erias steps up and uses sacred flame to attack and miss but still lets Corrin auto-make his save. Go cleirc! I'm not 100% that the secondary effect of abilities like this still work if the main attack misses, but given it's a replacement for buff spells while still allowing a cleric to attack I'm assuming the effect goes off anyway.
Tira doesn't want to be showed-up by a cleric, and hits with her eldrict blast for 12 damage.
Kathra misses and marks. I can see repetative marking being irritating but in a dynamic fight against multiple foes it might be useful stratedy to keep shifting targets.

Round 6
The chull triple-hits Kathra freezing her on the spot and doing a nasty 18 damage bringing her to 27.

Riardon tags the chull for 17.While not as dramatic as Kathra's critical, the eladrin has been doing reliable damage. Corrin uses a shielding smite to defend the frozen Kathra then marks it himself. The chull is fairly badly hurt at this point, 95dmg in total.
Skamos, Erias and Tira all miss pitifully and Kathra fails her save, remainging immobolized.

Round 7
The chull triple-hits Corrin reducing the front liners to twin frozen figures, both badly hurt. Corrin takes 16 damage from both hits for a total of 18.

Riardon shoots and misses. Corrian makes his save but as its at the end of his turn he still cannot act or even mark the chull. Skamos misses with a missile, as do Erias and Tira. Kathra fails her save an I groan as the chull with 9hp left and a choice of a mangaled paladin and frozen fighter to ravage, and no marks to sway.

Round 8
The chull gets double “1”s! I glare at Mrs.Jester and she protests “really, two 1s, see for yourself!”

Riardon's go. Hunter's Quarry is still up so the eladrin fires a Carefully Attack and nails the shot. 12 damage dropping the chull!

All in all, the fight was tough but far from impossible. The chull rolled reliably high, often hitting the PCs on the die. The PCs, on the other hand, typically rolled “5” or below. If the rolls had been reversed the chull would probably have done similar damage but would have been felled in round 4 or 5.

Corrin and Kathra were both fairly hurt at the end (9/27 and 6/33) but both still had their second winds and action points which could have turned the tide and kept them taking hits for another round or two. But, as I said, I probably read the wrong number for the amount healed so they should have been more hurt so I might have spent APs and surges to knock them up.
While most had used their per day powers, they had multiople healing surges left and after a quick rest could have healed a couple times and been in fighting shape for another (easier) fight or two.

As stated, this is probably the most extreme example in the system. Characters with the least powers and options (the fighter and ranger had particularly few powers usable against as single foe) against an abnormally tough foe who was also a soldier so high Ac, and high hp. Something else might have done more damage but but been hit more often and dropped much more quickly.
Still, a level 1 party taking out a level 10 threat. I guess that means a group of 6 level 18 or 19 PCs could drop a pit fiend with some heavy damage. Considering level 21-30 are the crazy epic levels and many campaigns might cap at 20 it's nice to know monsters like that can still be used as scary Big Bads without TPKs.

Jester of the FoS wrote: Riardon get's a “1”
Skamos needs more than a “4”
Erias another roll not above “5”.
Tira And of course a stunning miss with a “3” on the die.
Now it's the dwarf fighter's turn. “1”.


Riardon shoots. “1”. This is the third natural 1 for those keeping track.
Skamos for a solid “5” miss.
Kathra challenges & swings getting a “1”. That would be #5 not including Corrin's save attempt.


At the end of this round Mrs. Jester groaned at my dice rolling and took over saying she would “show me how it's done.”

Riardon gets a “1”. Corrin fails his save. Skamos flubs a MM.

Round 8
The chull gets double “1”s! I glare at Mrs.Jester and she protests “really, two 1s, see for yourself!”

....
So, did I miss the part in battle preparation where everyone put on blindfolds?...

No kidding. 9+ "1"s were rolled last night, most for attack rolls.

Confirmed: Doppelgangers are now also known as "changelings" in 4e.

Someone somewhere should have asked Gary Gygax about 4th edition Can we get his reply?

Jester of the FoS wrote:I guess that means a group of 6 level 18 or 19 PCs could drop a pit fiend with some heavy damage. Considering level 21-30 are the crazy epic levels and many campaigns might cap at 20 it's nice to know monsters like that can still be used as scary Big Bads without TPKs.

Pit fiend is 18000 XP. Bodak 18th level has 2000 XP. So the party must have 9 PCs in order to take out a single pitfiend at 18th level (9x 2000).

But since the pitfiend is 26th opposite to 18th, and considering how balanced the system showed to be to both your playtests... Yes, I think that 9 PCs could take him down.
How easy or difficult depends on the PC abilities though. What the picked from the huge amount they had to choose from etc.

Now, one thing I love about 4th edition. The Book's 4 months from publish. And I can say: "9 18th level PCs are what it takes to pull down a lone Pitfiend." I sincerely can't say with such certainity that in 3.5 Edition (and I play 3rd/3.5 since it came out) 6 18th level PCs are able to take down a Pitfiend as a single encounter/ double.
CR=20, so 4 20th can take him. 8 18th can take him. 6 18th? Probably yes, without a TPK... but Am I sure? No.