Café de Nuit

To combine Pizza and Rock's suggestions, perhaps the all-nighter could be accomplished by way of the vampiric equivalent of Mountain Dew? Acquiring the components to brew such a potion might be what brings the vampire to the party's attention.

IanFordam wrote: Sun May 19, 2024 2:23 pm To combine Pizza and Rock's suggestions, perhaps the all-nighter could be accomplished by way of the vampiric equivalent of Mountain Dew? Acquiring the components to brew such a potion might be what brings the vampire to the party's attention.

Alternatively, an affluent vampire could hire the party to gather the ingredients. Will the adventurers realize what they're collecting and for whom before they themselves become ingredients...?

Pizza wrote: Sun May 19, 2024 2:18 pm As someone who doesn’t play, I’ll admit my suggestions are probably out of left field sometimes, but I do wonder if it ruins vampires. Have you never stayed up late, woke up early, or pulled an all nighter? Perhaps the vampire incurs penalties of some sort the next day or days, but this is a necessary occasional sacrifice to maintain the facade.

That's a rule, or "game application", in VRGtV. Kind of.

"With very few exceptions, all vampires have to sleep sometime. The exceptional, sleepless vampires that van Richten describes still lose 1 HD for every day that they do not sleep. They regain all lost Hit Dice the first time they sleep for a whole day (from sunrise to sunset)."

A DM could easily rule this to be applicable to all vampires, and not just the exceptional. Especially if they link this as a feature to the Age Category/Powers by Age table. Which arguably makes sense when talking about vampires hiding in high society. It takes time to build up an equivalent wealth. Or, it can, if the vampire in question doesn't want to play the role of new money and have to chore with dealing with old money folk (even with supernatural charm) overly-protective of their innermost social circles and the puppets that are at their beck and call.

Or a DM could keep the rule as is for that one-off, high-roller/deep pocket vampire encounter and just sub in an exceptional sleepless type.

The majority of others don't rise that high because they struggle to overcome the need to sleep during the day, to maintain a facade for the length of time it takes to build a fortune, etc.

I'm not too keen on that personally though, for the simple fact that there are always those that have the uncanny ability to rise above.

Whatever works, yeah?

Five wrote: Sun May 19, 2024 1:21 pm Just to get it out of the way, and speaking generally about vampires and their facade...

As doctor Rudolph van Richten wrote in his treatise on vampires (VRGtV), "Unfortunately, there is no such thing as a 'typical' vampire". This simply-stated caveat should be applied to all that follows.

That said, not every vampire partakes or aspires to "play the grand facade". They're not one-dimensional creatures (unless you want them to be), so certain types just won't make the cut and need to be eliminated from the list, before we go further into the idea(s) of those that do.

What sorts of vampires (or personalities) are ill-suited to facades?

1. Feral Vampires (if somebody out there likes the concept).

These creatures exist only for the hunt, and nothing else. Their primal minds, although possessing of great levels of cunning, just can't grasp the concept of hiding their one, and only, true nature. It's not even about sustenance really (not consciously anyway; it's more a result from all.that.blood.). It's about ripping, shredding, and destroying life.

2. Some insane vampires (which may be included in the above).

The gods probably don't know what goes on in these minds. They probably don't want to know.

3. Starving vampires, or newly-turned vampires that are currently trying to cope with their "sanguine addiction".

Some of these may also fall into the feral type, even if but temporarily. An uncontrollable overfeeding or three; high profile. Until they draw unwanted attention to themselves and their actions of murder, and are either forced to flee or begin the first stages of entering the facade: rags for clothes, soup kitchens (for a different kind of soup), and drunken "beatings". That is, until they begin to realise their extraordinary ability to charm, and a supernatural strength that can, literally, be used to beat a drunken brute to death with their own arm...attached or unattached.

4. Time-ruminating, melancholic, or otherwise misanthropic vampires (of a certain, non-violent bent).

These vampires are the ruin and cave-dwelling kind that, at some point in their unnatural lives, have chosen to stay away from the rest of society, and for reasons known only to them. They may put on a temporary facade to lure in livestock to keep their mouldy "pantries" from becoming too bare, or to shake off a generation or two of boredom, or even for that one last/great hunt. Some may find themselves once again hungry for the grand facade; others will just go back to themselves, their minds, their lairs, etc.

5. ?? Anybody?

A few quick thoughts. It's a bit of a side trek but it's a bit of a foundation in my mind. I may come back to this post a edit/beef it up some.

1. The only feral vampires I like are the Illithid Vampires!

2. I think most vampires who go insane aren't long for this world in any case. Those who don't commit suicide will find their mad actions leading to their exposure and hunting.

3. I would maintain that a vampire needs money first and foremost to enter high society. Charming people can be an excellent way to obtain wealth, but wealth he must have regardless of the method. A vampire can't live on his charm gaze alone; sooner or later somebody is going to notice the frigging bills aren't being paid!

4. True

5. I think you left out clerical vampires, such as those who serve Nerull. Posing as a mortal is essentially a self-centered, even hedonistic approach to vampiric existence; I can't see any dark god being pleased by his priest adopting such a self-serving path. No, a vampiric cleric should be out there fighting the bad fight, creating and taking control of undead, smiting the champions of the light, seeking to directly advance the cause of his dark deity!

6. A Vampire assassin, such as Van Richten wrote about, may also see no need to pretend to be mortal; indeed, openly not being so could increase the price he is able to command for a hit.

Solan wrote: Sun May 19, 2024 6:43 am
I think that while it makes a lot of sense for liches to squirrel themselves away in a distant dungeon, a vampire with sufficient wealth is much better off integrating himself into high society, especially given his dietary needs.

I strongly disagree and the reason is that a vampire cannot pass off as a human. It would be easier for a ghoul to do it, than a vampire. Ravenloft is very different than the Sprawling metropolises like 18th century London or Amsterdam that spawn tales of the gentleman vampire moving in elite circles. The cities in Ravenloft are small and isolated, and the elite are few and very often barricade themselves with their few peers. A domain with a total of 40,000 people would have a total of 1000-1200 nobles, rich merchants, and high society people, concentrated in perhaps 2 urban centers.
And those 1000-1200 nobles include the grandma, the the 4 years old, etc, leaving an even smaller people for socializing. Inside one's local circle, everyone would know everyone and their servants.
Sure, a vampire may pass for a visiting noble from the other city for a few days, a few weeks if he or she is careful. But holding the facade for years, when actually socializing? That's impossible.
The vampire doesn't eat, drink, breath, have a shadow, have a reflection. A vampire can't be near garlic, mirrors, the daylight or a religious service (strongly presented holy symbols).

If you want a socialite vampire and not a "odd fellow in a decrepit castle" you need to make cities of at least 30,000 people, supported by a large, large population that includes "satellite towns" (and thus 'rural aristocracy' that "may be visiting the city").
You need domains in the hundreds of thousands. That way, you would have a large noble class for the vampire to wade through, and several "smaller" towns of like 3000-5000 people for the vampire to visit in between trips to the big city.

Mimic Mortal
Necromancy, Sorcerer/Wizard Spell level 4
can only be cast by a vampire
This spell is one created by Strahd Von Zarovich to better disguise himself amongst the living.

Domains of Dread - pp190-191
Ravenloft Campaign Setting: Realm of Terror - p96
Forbidden Lore: Nova Arcanum - p23
Ravenloft Gazetteer Volume I - p116

alhoon wrote: Mon May 20, 2024 3:08 am

Solan wrote: Sun May 19, 2024 6:43 am
I think that while it makes a lot of sense for liches to squirrel themselves away in a distant dungeon, a vampire with sufficient wealth is much better off integrating himself into high society, especially given his dietary needs.

I strongly disagree and the reason is that a vampire cannot pass off as a human. It would be easier for a ghoul to do it, than a vampire. Ravenloft is very different than the Sprawling metropolises like 18th century London or Amsterdam that spawn tales of the gentleman vampire moving in elite circles. The cities in Ravenloft are small and isolated, and the elite are few and very often barricade themselves with their few peers. A domain with a total of 40,000 people would have a total of 1000-1200 nobles, rich merchants, and high society people, concentrated in perhaps 2 urban centers.
And those 1000-1200 nobles include the grandma, the the 4 years old, etc, leaving an even smaller people for socializing. Inside one's local circle, everyone would know everyone and their servants.
Sure, a vampire may pass for a visiting noble from the other city for a few days, a few weeks if he or she is careful. But holding the facade for years, when actually socializing? That's impossible.
The vampire doesn't eat, drink, breath, have a shadow, have a reflection. A vampire can't be near garlic, mirrors, the daylight or a religious service (strongly presented holy symbols).

If you want a socialite vampire and not a "odd fellow in a decrepit castle" you need to make cities of at least 30,000 people, supported by a large, large population that includes "satellite towns" (and thus 'rural aristocracy' that "may be visiting the city").
You need domains in the hundreds of thousands. That way, you would have a large noble class for the vampire to wade through, and several "smaller" towns of like 3000-5000 people for the vampire to visit in between trips to the big city.

Van Richten's guide says otherwise, citing several examples of vampires successfully living among high society. And are you accounting for the noveau rich, especially those hailing from other domains? A vampire need not be a noble, only wealthy and could well have come by that wealth recently, according to his backstory. A vampire could well use his charm gaze and powers to take over a shipping concern and thus seem to be legitimately rich. I believe a vampire must breath in order to speak, and since when does a vampire not cast a shadow?!? Granted, that lack would indeed be an undead giveaway, but I've never begore seen any D&D source suggest a vampire does not cast a shadow.

alhoon wrote: Mon May 20, 2024 3:08 am I strongly disagree and the reason is that a vampire cannot pass off as a human. It would be easier for a ghoul to do it, than a vampire.

As a quick aside, and linked to this thread only through the theme of monsters impersonating humans...

Or a ghul-kin:
https://www.completecompendium.com/appendix/ghulkin/

I have two starring in my WIP cluster (almost five years now, really?; it's a sub downtime kinda thing), The Disputed Lands, which are inspired by a mix of the Crusades and Nausicaa of the Valley of the Wind. Only, I downplayed religious differences and upped the racism (crusading humans versus nature-cursed elves). Not sure if I mentioned it here in some obscure thread or not. Meh. It doesn't matter.

End aside

Regarding Mimic Mortal, that's a great "in" as well.

Pros: it can minimise, in theory, the number of society-infiltrating vampires, significantly, to that of the magic-using/bending kind.

Cons: it can minimise, in theory, the number of society-infiltrating vampires, significantly, to that of the magic-using/bending kind.

As always, it depends on the DM's wants and wishes.

But combine it with the exceptionally rare vampire who can, at the expense of their own vitality, stay awake during daylight hours for multiple days before needing sleep, then you can have two very different backgrounds for vampires "playing the grand facade". And it's easier to (explain) keep their numbers down, if that's your want or will.

Mephisto of the FoS wrote: Mon May 20, 2024 6:39 am Mimic Mortal
Necromancy, Sorcerer/Wizard Spell level 4
can only be cast by a vampire
This spell is one created by Strahd Von Zarovich to better disguise himself amongst the living.

Yes, for a spellcasting vampire with access to that spell and while it helps, it doesn't overcome the weaknesses, Mephisto. I stand my ground that the way canonical Ravenloft is, you can't have "Interview with a Vampire" types of vampires.

Solan wrote: Mon May 20, 2024 6:52 am Van Richten's guide says otherwise, citing several examples of vampires successfully living among high society. And are you accounting for the noveau rich, especially those hailing from other domains? A vampire need not be a noble, only wealthy and could well have come by that wealth recently, according to his backstory. A vampire could well use his charm gaze and powers to take over a shipping concern and thus seem to be legitimately rich. I believe a vampire must breath in order to speak, and since when does a vampire not cast a shadow?!? Granted, that lack would indeed be an undead giveaway, but I've never begore seen any D&D source suggest a vampire does not cast a shadow.

Yes, I do account for the noveau rich, and those hailing from other domains. A vampire cannot travel as easily as a werebat. And while it could pretend to be someone new and refreshing in big-City-A, there are precious few cities that a vampire can get into and hide its presence. After all a vampire can travel only by night and a lot of darklords or their minions are aware of vampires.
I may be wrong about the shadow, but reflections, daylight, pale skin of the dead (without that 4th lvl spell that most vampires would not have), garlic, not-invited curses, no crossing running water would sooner or later give away the vampire.
And again, a vampire feeding on the population of a town of 8000 people would very soon draw attention.

In 3.5 Libris Mortis you had the Night Oil who granted you protection from sunlight.

Mistmaster wrote: Tue May 21, 2024 11:09 am In 3.5 Libris Mortis you had the Night Oil who granted you protection from sunlight.

Not every vampire would have access to that and to be honest, in a Gothic Horror setting, where curses are strong and evil has consequences while good is strong but not obvious (i.e. the sun burns you and you shouldn't be able to do much about it) protection from sunlight or other items to bypass the curse of your existence is a bit meh.

But it is not just the sunlight. The main issue remains: In the high society of a probably xenophobic domain of 40,000 people, the elite / high class may be 1000 at most, with the central town having probably 500 of them, including 4 year old kids and the 80 years old grandma. Everyone knows everyone and in most cases, they are xenophobic so the "Charming rich stranger" would not be welcome.

alhoon wrote: Tue May 21, 2024 2:52 pm The main issue remains: In the high society of a probably xenophobic domain of 40,000 people, the elite / high class may be 1000 at most, with the central town having probably 500 of them, including 4 year old kids and the 80 years old grandma. Everyone knows everyone and in most cases, they are xenophobic so the "Charming rich stranger" would not be welcome.

I don't buy that. As an absolute anyway. For several reasons.

Money speaks, even to those with tons of it. Greed is an irresistible charm in and of itself.

Reputations can be ruined by public opinion and the gentlest of whispers at the dining table, not to mention blackmail of the sort that ensures the "victim" remains silent, with or without brutal violence to back it, should the vampire want to play that role.

Finances (or, current way of life) can be undercut, manipulated, redirected, or even siphoned. Probably a bit easier to do to those that are more concerned with keeping up appearances than in keeping up with expenditures.

And that's not even talking about the powers a vampire posesses.

Charm, great for worming the ears of business partners and spouses.

Thralls tactically-placed and/or doing any number of things by proxy.

Shapeshifting (spider climb/mist form/passwall) for that"fly on the wall" gathering of secrets.

Untimely infestations (animal control) is a great way to ruin power broking parties/get togethers and the storefront end of businesses,...

And remember, a vampire doesn't even need to kill to feed. Just one missing person is all that it would take to keep a vampire going for however long it is that they find amusement, joy, etc in their charade. That's if they don't want to risk a short game by going neck to neck, night to night.

Also, as a last point for now, the vampire doesn't even need to be there in person to become the "Count of Monte Cristo" in any high society circle (of any amount of tightness)! At least, not on a regular basis.

A "summer" or "vacation" home is purchased, over-priced and with cash(*), or better yet, built to spec; the best of even the city's trendiest of trends...head and shoulders above that of the local spoiled rich. A weekend or so (public) stay a year should really get the high rollers' interest (put them on the defensive).

(*) Where does the money come from? Through similar scams, or through a series of well-timed payroll thefts, which can only help the vampire weaken its targets through the chaos that ensues. Weakens (or even replaces) leadership, and sours workers (coupled with some follow-up whispering and it's like the best a union-breaker can hope to do!). And if/when the regional toughs come in to investigate then the vampire simply stops. Bides its time. Of which it has plenty. Besides, the blame (and inevitable threats) from outside forces is great in that the pressure on the local elite increases tenfold.

Or maybe a kidnap-for ransom. Adventurers might even get involved and bring the perpetrators to justice (vampire burning its trash). But the money is gone and the trail is dead. Years later...

Of course this is after a foreign investor, or distant relative (of some charmed individual in a position of power), comes in to save (ownership, partnership, majority shareholder etc) the floundering industry (the town only has one, and a series of "unfortunate" events has it reeling.) Livelihoods, town prosperity, personal fortunes, and personal careers (that will no doubt end if the town goes bust) are all threatened. In other words, soft targets softened up even moreso (hit em where it hurts; the sadist knows best).

A thrall is the public face, the main point of contact, that all-around unassuming but still affable individual...with a second face of a barker of sorts, that builds up the hype, the "coming", while simultaneously profiling the local who's who. Give them whatever title is needed to appear legit business.

If it's not legitimately a travelling con artist, flipping mid-sized businesses and playing with muppets but keeping a focused eye on the eventual fortune, then the vampire is holed up in its new house, biding its time for those particular moments of awe-inspiring reveal.

It's practice. For when they go to the big league.

alhoon wrote: Tue May 21, 2024 2:52 pm

Mistmaster wrote: Tue May 21, 2024 11:09 am In 3.5 Libris Mortis you had the Night Oil who granted you protection from sunlight.

Not every vampire would have access to that and to be honest, in a Gothic Horror setting, where curses are strong and evil has consequences while good is strong but not obvious (i.e. the sun burns you and you shouldn't be able to do much about it) protection from sunlight or other items to bypass the curse of your existence is a bit meh.

Vampires in original gothic books were not burned by sunlight, only enfeebled.

Mistmaster wrote: Wed May 22, 2024 7:15 am

alhoon wrote: Tue May 21, 2024 2:52 pm

Mistmaster wrote: Tue May 21, 2024 11:09 am In 3.5 Libris Mortis you had the Night Oil who granted you protection from sunlight.

Not every vampire would have access to that and to be honest, in a Gothic Horror setting, where curses are strong and evil has consequences while good is strong but not obvious (i.e. the sun burns you and you shouldn't be able to do much about it) protection from sunlight or other items to bypass the curse of your existence is a bit meh.

Vampires in original gothic books were not burned by sunlight, only enfeebled.

Hmm... you are right in that. But I was talking more about the setting, where curses are supposed to be strong and crippling.
It is clear many disagree with my views on the feasibility of a socialite vampire in Ravenloft's tiny domains, and that is OK. But that said, even thematically, a vampire in my opinion should face severe issues because of his or her curse, not minor issues.

alhoon wrote: Thu May 23, 2024 10:55 am

Mistmaster wrote: Wed May 22, 2024 7:15 am

alhoon wrote: Tue May 21, 2024 2:52 pm

Not every vampire would have access to that and to be honest, in a Gothic Horror setting, where curses are strong and evil has consequences while good is strong but not obvious (i.e. the sun burns you and you shouldn't be able to do much about it) protection from sunlight or other items to bypass the curse of your existence is a bit meh.

Vampires in original gothic books were not burned by sunlight, only enfeebled.

Hmm... you are right in that. But I was talking more about the setting, where curses are supposed to be strong and crippling.
It is clear many disagree with my views on the feasibility of a socialite vampire in Ravenloft's tiny domains, and that is OK. But that said, even thematically, a vampire in my opinion should face severe issues because of his or her curse, not minor issues.

I strongly agree; the effects of the curse of undeath should not be easily circumvented.