Illithid in Ravenloft

[William Blackmoor]

It works for my campaign. I admit, that i left the storms behind because I had no use for them. To me (and my players) Illithids are an underground race. I told my players, that in the Grand Conjunction, Bluetspur was "swallowed by the earth".
Although i liked Spelljammer I'm keeping my Ravenloft's moon "illithid-free". That's "over the top" for me. "Lamoridia's new telescopes reveal that there are storms on the moon's surface...and tentacled brain-eating monsters..."
As a sidenote: An idea I shortly toyed with before I turned to the Underdark-version of Bluetspur, was that Bluetspur is like another dimension to the rest of Ravenloft. That it's actually in the same place as Kartakass, Barovia and Hazlan, but dimensionaly seperated. But in the end i considered the idea to weird.

[The_God_Brain]

Hm... then let's asume the lighnings are some sort of wild arcane energy (maybe the result of a war with the El Koth or the Thaani ancestors?).
The glow on the horizon is no magma but radiation, which could also be some manifestation of the mist, trapping pure mindflayers (keeping them from wandering of into other realms, eating tons of brains there and destroying the gothic touch ).

The illithids would be kept from settling the great "surface"cave by the arcane storms and since that ill-fated experiment, by the vampiric illithids (who are invisible to illithids because of their undead nature). So the illithids still have a very good reason for staying within the smaller caves.

That is pretty creative. There really isn't any reason why Bluetspur couldn't be entirely underground, but if I were going to do that I'd remove all references to the surface area alltogether and just stick them way the hell under the earth on the Core.

As for undead being invisible to illithid...under 2nd edition rules Illithid had infravision, and literally couldn't see in the light...it blinded them. Therefore, they needed to operate in near or absolute darkness. In 3rd edition, they actually have darkvision, and suffer no ill effects from light ohter than just not liking it. While the idea of having the illithid see in darkvision has a special charm to me as well, unfortuntately it presents a LOT of logistics problems for the game. The animosity that illithid express for undead was accounted for in 2nd edition by them being basically invisible to them (unless they were on fire or otherwise produced heat, like a Giant Skeleton with its inner fire pillar). In 3rd edition, its a bit more simple: undead are immune to the illithid's mind blast and domination abilities, the two things the race uses as power. Also, they can't eat dead brains. Well, I'm assuming they can't...or at least won't. There is a myth popular with many players that psionics are weak or useless against undead. This is completely false...psionics are just as powerful against undead monsters as arcane magic, and in some ways actually more powerful. Unfortunately, the average illithid only has telepathic and psychoportive powers at its disposal, which makes it vulnerable to even relatively weak undead creatures. A psion with some levels in a psionic class would be far more effective against a ghost or vampire, but the average illithid would be boned. Of course, it could always send wave after wave of suicidally loyal thralls at whatever threatened it so its kind of moot. But anything the illithid can't control, they destroy.

But, if you want undead to be invisible to illithid in your game, go for it.

[Jester of the FoS]

As a sidenote: An idea I shortly toyed with before I turned to the Underdark-version of Bluetspur, was that Bluetspur is like another dimension to the rest of Ravenloft. That it's actually in the same place as Kartakass, Barovia and Hazlan, but dimensionaly seperated. But in the end i considered the idea to weird.

That actually sounds kinda cool. This twisted alternate reality where everything looks the same only run down and vacant and were the people are even more cowed and terrified.
Or simply an 'astral' Core where the Flayers are there but removed from reality.

[Gemathustra]

Or simply an 'astral' Core where the Flayers are there but removed from reality.

Something tells me that the Mindflayers would like the Langoliers less than undead hordes, even.

[daffy72]

Someone shoot me now. I'm turing into the kind of rule monger that made me want to rip my hair out when i first came to the RL boards.

Anyway: factoids:
Bluetspur is described in the module as having no day or night, just a dull red glow on the horizon- this fits in perfectly with the domain now being on the moon. So IF its now on the moon, its on the dark side, and earthbound telescopes wouldn't see the storms.

It's also been mentioned that Spelljamming technology doesn't opperate in Ravenloft. So to go to the moon you have one of two options: A hot air balloon (whose concept is pretty popular with the community, this poster included).
A variation on this theme, players could check out the druid halfling hot air baloon from 'The Book of Wondrous Inventions' c. 1987 p.53

Or maybe the gnomes of Darkon build 'a large gun' in the mountains of misery and fire a projectile with explorer's inside at the moon
http://jv.gilead.org.il/pg/moon/23.html

if we assume that the domain takes up the back side of the moon, then the moon could actually be 30x smaller and much closer then in an actual crystal sphere (or that once you get to the sky border of a domain the mists simply transport you there.

Personally i always liked the different skies in each domain. it adds to the insanity meter for us outsiders trapped in this nuthouse, while the locals see it as 'normal.' If like me you still like the 2e skies of the different d&d worlds i would assume that the sky mistway to bluetspur is only accessable in those domains that only have one moon, like Barovia, Mordent, etc. For Darkon i'm currently flushing out the skies. Its a bastard-combination of Oerth's skies and home brewed constellations that have an undead theme.

[William Blackmoor]

Someone shoot me now. I'm turing into the kind of rule monger that made me want to rip my hair out when i first came to the RL boards.

Consider yourself shot I used silver bullets, just in case...

Anyway: factoids:
Bluetspur is described in the module as having no day or night, just a dull red glow on the horizon- this fits in perfectly with the domain now being on the moon. So IF its now on the moon, its on the dark side, and earthbound telescopes wouldn't see the storms.

Ever seen photos taken from the moons surface? Besides the rather large blue and the other yellow ball on the one side, there are quite a lot of tiny sparkling things. So you might say, that if Bluetspur were on the other side of the moon, it still would posses a quite beautieful night sky...

I give you that Ravenloft is no natural world, so there might be actually nothing on the other side to see...

But why would the storms be limited only to the dark side of the moon (assuming that the moon has an atmosphere to support weather and life)?

I'm sorry but I really can't see Bluetspur on the moon (not even it's dark side)

But, if you want undead to be invisible to illithid in your game, go for it.

My players visited Bluetspur after the Grand C. and the Illithiad, but before Vecna's little gambit altered the realities und produced the DnD 3ed So i'll have to stick with it (but I admitt, that I actually forgot the change of "visions")

[Bluebomber4evr]

Bluetspur is described in the module as having no day or night, just a dull red glow on the horizon- this fits in perfectly with the domain now being on the moon.

I disagree. I believe Ravenloft's "moon" is just as illusory as its "sun," i.e. a complete fabrication of the demiplane.

It's also been mentioned that Spelljamming technology doesn't opperate in Ravenloft.

That's not true. Spelljamming technology works perfectly fine in Ravenloft, it just can't go into space because Ravenloft, being a demiplane, has no "outer space" for the ships to travel to, so they just end up going into the mists and re-emerging in another domain. This also throws a monkey wrench into the "Bluetspur is on the moon" theory. That, and the surface of Bluetspur used to be inhabited by humans (the Thaani) who crossed over into neighboring domains when Bluetspur first joined the core.

To add to what William has said, if Bluetspur was Ravenloft's moon, then its atmosphere would block the view of the lunar surface from the domains "beneath" it, just as it blocks the view of stars/sun from its own surface.

This kind of makes me wish they had just changed the weird sky after the Grand Conjunction and left Bluetspur part of the core. With the weird sky intact, it's probably better to just have it as an Island of Terror along with the other anomalous domains that don't fit into the core.

[BlackBoxGamer]

Before I started my current campaign I honestly considered changing Bluetspur to be Ravenlofts moon. I was going to give it a treatment ALA the movie 'First Men in the Moon.' It just struck me as right somehow, the absolutely stillness of the void above, the barren valleys, alien mountains of pale gray granite and shadowed rifts housing the cold, baleful intelligences who look upon the lands below with eternal hatred and hunger...

But I quickly realized that it would change the feel and flavor of my Ravenloft game radically, from one of gothic/Lovecraftian horror to one of cosmic/Lovecraftian horror, so I decided against it. Additionally, it radically changed the dynamics of the demiplane, something I'm just not interested in changing.

So I'm saving it for when I run just a regular D&D game. But for anyone who is interested in the Bluetspur-as-the-moon idea, I really recommend the movie 'First Men in the Moon.' A bit cheesy in parts, but the insectile aliens masters of the moon really get the feel of the alien, otherworldy mindset, IMHO.

Also, in my campaign, when/if my players ever go to Bluetspur, I am planning on using the neothelids, but only having them referred to in subdued tones as the "those who burrow in the depths" or somesuch other Lovecraftian-style reference. I'm not sure how they might exist (perhaps a few larval illithids were forgotten about during the trouble in Thoughts of Darkness, and they managed to survive, tweaked by the DP to allow them to escape the psionic long-range detection of the God Brain, and now posing a small inconvenience/foil for the illithids) but I'll work them in somehow.

Anyhoo, IMO, the illithids, while not perfect for Ravenloft, definately can add a layer of alien horror to any Ravenloft campaign, just so long as they aren't the standard fantasy/underdark illithids of other games.

BBG

[Stygian Inquirer]

As a sidenote: An idea I shortly toyed with before I turned to the Underdark-version of Bluetspur, was that Bluetspur is like another dimension to the rest of Ravenloft. That it's actually in the same place as Kartakass, Barovia and Hazlan, but dimensionaly seperated. But in the end i considered the idea to weird.

Bluetspur is an Island of Terror, right?

Ok, bear with me for a minute.

Bluetspur is hidden in the mists, right?

How about, if you wanted to do your Underdark thing, try this: Bluetspur is surrounded by the mists underneath the ground in Hazlan, Barovia and Kartakass. (Think of the imprisonment spell). The mistway in Hazlan to Bluetspur (Song of Obscene Hunger) could be one way in and another could be hidden in the Balinoks. Just an idea.

[The_God_Brain]

Also, in my campaign, when/if my players ever go to Bluetspur, I am planning on using the neothelids, but only having them referred to in subdued tones as the "those who burrow in the depths" or somesuch other Lovecraftian-style reference. I'm not sure how they might exist (perhaps a few larval illithids were forgotten about during the trouble in Thoughts of Darkness, and they managed to survive, tweaked by the DP to allow them to escape the psionic long-range detection of the God Brain, and now posing a small inconvenience/foil for the illithids) but I'll work them in somehow.

Thats a good idea. However, something I thought of not long ago...there really isn't anything that says the Illithid in Bluetspur are nessisarily the ONLY mind flayers in the demiplane of Dread. Its entirely possible that smaller hives live here and there, with their own far weaker elder brains. It is also possible that some illithid broke away from the God Brain and tried to make it on thier own...but failed and the remains of their elder brain pool spawned a neolithid. This might put the PC characters in the unique position of having to work WITH a Bluetspur illithid to destroy the creature.

[daffy72]

>That's not true. Spelljamming technology works perfectly fine in Ravenloft

If we go by the books or feedback from the authors they said spelljammers do not work. they will not lift off the ground.

I researched it when i wanted to add a 'haunted spelljammer' (a d&d version of a deserted ocean liner, something big enough to explore) but it was brought up then that helms dont work in rl, which if you think about it, would destroy the whole isolated feel between settlements. At any rate i adapted the story. Now its a crash survivor from Realmspace trying to get the wreck working, always doomed to fail... how tragic awwwwww.

back to... the moon
on the darkside the domain could easily be inside a large crater... there is no reason why the atmosphere (which was always odd anyway because there were no plants producing oxygen) could end at the raised lip of the crater, which would keep everything trapped there unless they had an artificial way to breathe...

this CAN get insane and not make sense...as crazy or weird as a Dm wants to make it... on the moon.. the underdark... don't forget there are houses and such in rl that can be as big as whole worlds inside... hense needing to make a madness check when rational players try to figure all this out. These are illithids after all..

but anyway run Bluetspur in your own campaign anyway you want. some of us are just proposing ideas for those that want them. you also have to remember some changes were made only because S&S are under certain restrictions like not being able to mention the other d&d worlds.. so now all the skies have one moon.. just because they made a change doesnt mean you cant ignore it.

Lawgiver anyone?
get your hands off me you damn dirty ape!

[DeepShadow of FoS]

>That's not true. Spelljamming technology works perfectly fine in Ravenloft

If we go by the books or feedback from the authors they said spelljammers do not work. they will not lift off the ground.

Source, please?! I don't have my books handy, but I know one book said that spelljammers can fly but not leave domains nor exit RL. One specifically said that a spelljammer that flies up high enough will just enter the Mists and come out where they pick.

There may be a strong desire to change or ignore it, but there was a working spelljamming ship described in VRGtF. Drigor used it to travel to islands in the Mists while searching for his escape.

[Jester of the FoS]

I direct attention to our lovely FAQ
<------ or http://www.fraternityofshadows.com/FAQs.htm
that sez:

Can I use a spelljamming vessel (from the Spelljammer second edition setting) to fly away from Ravenloft?

According to the Complete Spacefarer's Handbook, no. Any spelljammer flying up to the stars quickly enters the Mists. When the Mists clear, the vessel is once again headed back toward the domain.

To quote from this book:

Ravenloft is a demiplane. As such, it is fundamen­tally different from any spelljamming world. Ravenloft lies within no crystal sphere. It cannot be reached by traveling through the phlogiston. A spell-jamming ship sailing into Ravenloft's night soon en­ters the mists at the border of the demiplane and is quickly turned back.

Although spelljamming provides no escape from Ravenloft, outside spelljammers are not safe from the Demiplane of Dread. The Mists of Ravenloft can appear even in wildspace, where they take the form of a jet-black cloud that arises before the victim vessel. Ships that sail into Ravenloft through the Mists are as trapped as any other entrant to the demiplane. Only in the phlogiston, which blocks all planar trav­el, can one remain safe from the reaching tentacles of the Demiplane of Dread.

So you cannot fly into the mists or above a domain but, presumably, you could fly about the Core.

[William Blackmoor]

How about, if you wanted to do your Underdark thing, try this: Bluetspur is surrounded by the mists underneath the ground in Hazlan, Barovia and Kartakass. (Think of the imprisonment spell). The mistway in Hazlan to Bluetspur (Song of Obscene Hunger) could be one way in and another could be hidden in the Balinoks. Just an idea.

That's more or less the way I use Bluetspur, yes.

[Bluebomber4evr]

And the specific book David of the Frat is quoting is The Complete Spacefarer's Handbook, on page 14. It's quite clear from that quote that Spelljammers *do* work in Ravenloft, but they cannot enter space as the demiplane does not replicate that environment.

And I apologize if anyone feels I've stomped all over their ideas or somesuch...I was under the impression that this thread was attempting to make illithid fit the setting better without contradicting previous sources. Obviously, if canon is being thrown out the window, then anything goes.