Café de Nuit

Democracy doesn't work!

This said, 5E isn't that bad, is it? I mean the Queen can move and so can the Rook. But I always sucked at chess...

Zettaijin wrote:Democracy doesn't work!

This said, 5E isn't that bad, is it? I mean the Queen can move and so can the Rook. But I always sucked at chess...

Democracy doesn't, and has never existed. Choices given to the people (through x number of parties) is prettied dictatorship. An open platform for joe blow to run is a game of odds, odds that always favour the house.

Just as communism has never actually existed outside of theory. We still live in a (politically) medieval world...it's just english ain't old english anymore.

But I digress. That cartoon is a good callout, in my opinion. Funny.

While I do like the concept of asking fans what they want in a (yet another) game/rule system, I don't like the concept of having the public earn somebody their money for them. It works because it can garner the best of the best when it comes to imagination, but it's a free rip all the same. Some people don't mind, and that's fine. But people are on salary to come up with this stuff. Maybe they should just hunker down and do their job.

I mean, I can't walk into your house, hand you my tool box, get you to tear down and refit your bathroom and then turn around and hand you the bill. That'd be insane. So, what's the difference?

Good concept, but hot air. Not that I'm never wrong...

All that aside, I'd personally like to see 5E go back to it's earlier incarnations. Simple to pick up and play. Here's the standard DM/GM book, player's guide, and world builder (total 750-900 page count), all wrapped in a box. Then put out world books (more for appeasing old fans than anything), sort of like what Rifts did, and some modules. Add-ons and other modules should be web-based, with the bulk being free. Maybe enter a code as found in your books for free download, a minor charge for others. None of this pokemon "gotta get em all" crap. Brilliant marketing, smashing a mirror and selling all the shards individually, but a slap in the face all the same.

Regardless, I really sincerely hope this new edition is an improvement on a truly great game. And I hope it does well. Excellent in fact. I have a (very) young son who I'd love to make fun of his old man cos he's a first-second gen gamer...!

I imagine the call for consumer input is Wizard's way of moving towards crowdsourcing.

Chip wrote:I imagine the call for consumer input is Wizard's way of moving towards crowdsourcing.

I really hope so. From the (morally upright) pro side of the term anyway.

It's not often that I want to be proven a jaded SoB...heh

Zettaijin wrote:Democracy doesn't work!

Asking people for their input is not democracy. Input is not votes.

Five wrote:While I do like the concept of asking fans what they want in a (yet another) game/rule system, I don't like the concept of having the public earn somebody their money for them. It works because it can garner the best of the best when it comes to imagination, but it's a free rip all the same. Some people don't mind, and that's fine. But people are on salary to come up with this stuff. Maybe they should just hunker down and do their job.

I mean, I can't walk into your house, hand you my tool box, get you to tear down and refit your bathroom and then turn around and hand you the bill. That'd be insane. So, what's the difference?

The difference is that those people are paid to come up with creative ideas, not read the customer's mind. Asking people for their input--even for huge amounts of input--is not quashing that creativity, but actually demanding more. After all, the company is going to get lots of drastically different or downright contradictory input (nods to the comic) and they will have to reconcile all those, or at least as many as possible. Then they will have to make a rules system that expresses that reconciliation.

Funny, I had a similar problem in the college courses I was teaching. When the first exams came back far lower than I expected, I graded on a curve to save as many as possible, and then asked the students for suggestions on how to improve the learning experience. I got requests for more assignments, while others begged for them to stay the same. I got requests for shorter tests and longer tests. I got requests for student leadership, but no one wanted the jobs. I got requests for a study guide, but when I tried that, scores got worse.

You think they did my job for me? I don't regret asking them, but I had my work cut out for me reconciling as many as those possible, and working out ways to accomplish the result without multiplying my workload by ten. Fortunately I teach classes in how to use restrictions to inspire creativity, and was able to make several meaningful changes that met the spirit of what they were asking for, if not what they actually asked. The majority were very pleased.

Funny thing, one student asked me three weeks later, "Are we going to do ANY of the things we voted on?" She, too, appeared to be under the mistaken impression input = votes.

Interesting news. 4e didn't last long!

DeepShadow of FoS wrote:Funny, I had a similar problem in the college courses I was teaching. When the first exams came back far lower than I expected, I graded on a curve to save as many as possible, and then asked the students for suggestions on how to improve the learning experience. I got requests for more assignments, while others begged for them to stay the same. I got requests for shorter tests and longer tests. I got requests for student leadership, but no one wanted the jobs. I got requests for a study guide, but when I tried that, scores got worse.

You think they did my job for me?

I'd rather not derail this thread, so I'll keep it short.

Possibly. Students pay for school, teachers get paid to teach. Cirriculum falls to the teacher, and the teacher's ability to teach falls to the dean (or other higher authority) to hawkeye. It's great that you care, truly, but the fine line is there...somewhere.

Funny thing, one student asked me three weeks later, "Are we going to do ANY of the things we voted on?" She, too, appeared to be under the mistaken impression input = votes.

In representative democracy, input does equal votes. At least, in (explained) theory. Reality is otherwise (when was the last time a politician asked you for your opinions, that they are supposedly representing?), ergo democracy does not exist outside of theory and/or a small population of likeminded people, say commune. The existing systems aren't necessarily wrong (I'm no anarchist) or right, that's not what I'm saying. I'm just saying: call it something else.

But yeah, I see your point in the context of this thread's subject.

Five wrote:Possibly. Students pay for school, teachers get paid to teach. Cirriculum falls to the teacher, and the teacher's ability to teach falls to the dean (or other higher authority) to hawkeye.

Reread my post. I still designed the curriculum. In NO WAY did their input make my work easier.

Keeping to the topic, the same thing will go on with 5E. Giving them input is not making their job easier. It's making it harder. They will have to use more creativity than ever to please the majority.

In representative democracy, input does equal votes.

Wizards never said this was a democracy of any kind. They are collecting input, not votes.

At least, in (explained) theory. Reality is otherwise (when was the last time a politician asked you for your opinions, that they are supposedly representing?), ergo democracy does not exist outside of theory and/or a small population of likeminded people, say commune.

Who's arguing with this?

The existing systems aren't necessarily wrong (I'm no anarchist) or right, that's not what I'm saying. I'm just saying: call it something else.

I think that this needs to be its own thread.

DeepShadow of FoS wrote:Reread my post. I still designed the curriculum. In NO WAY did their input make my work easier.

I never said anything about making your work easier. I just said that those students possibly got involved in something that was beyond their 'function'. I wasn't there. I don't know. For all I know you're talked about over pints. Hopefully people see your ways in the way you intend.

Keeping to the topic, the same thing will go on with 5E. Giving them input is not making their job easier. It's making it harder. They will have to use more creativity than ever to please the majority.

Hopefully, yes. My opinions on the benefits and downfalls of so-called "crowdsourcing" have been expressed, and there really is no need to reiterate.

Wizards never said this was a democracy of any kind. They are collecting input, not votes.

That was a response to a statement made by you. With an eye roll.

Who's arguing with this?

That was originally a response to "democracy doesn't work", laced with smartass, and combined into an answer to the words above.

I think that this needs to be its own thread.

I don't think that's wise. If you really want, then sure. Makes no real difference to me.

But, for the record, I was about to delete my original politic talk/remark, but decided against it for the simple fact that I had already posted it. Maybe somebody had already read it. I dunno. I was hoping things wouldn't go to where it's going (gone?). Maybe I should have just bit my tongue, yeah? Lesson learned.

Perhaps you'd like to move this discussion to PM's guys? Thanks....

Anyways, 5e input from fans can be good, if there is a high demand for something i'm sure they'll try their best to accomodate it, but they still have their own ideas that they want to do as well so, while we might devert which river the mountain water runs down into, it's all going to end up in the ocean. (lol i'm not totally sure that analogy works)

My democracy comment was a reference to The Simpsons wherein Kent Brockman exclaims that "Democracy doesn't work!". I did not mean it seriously in any way. In fact, Kent's proclamation was a bit silly when taken in context and my usage meant to poke fun at the brouhaha surrounding any edition change with people making bold statements - especially in light of the PA comic's premonition that asking a large, diverse fanbase for input may result in more work for the creators.

Let's just all drop the political aspect of this issue, please. Whether democracy works or not, jokingly or nonjokingly, it's not relevant to the discussion at hand and has the potential to get messy. And simmer down, everyone! Remember, we're all friends here, however we feel about WotC, 5e, Crowdsourcing, or anything else... (Moderator hat off...)

Could we excise the political discussion posts and put them in a separate thread in the Dark Beyond forum? It would leave the 5e thread more focused on 5e for a cleaner read, without outright deleting people's posts (which might be heavyhanded).

That's pretty much what happened when cure started his "Is Cruelty Evil?" thread in General Discussion, and Deepshadow shifted it over to the Dark Beyond forum.

HuManBing wrote:Could we excise the political discussion posts and put them in a separate thread in the Dark Beyond forum? It would leave the 5e thread more focused on 5e for a cleaner read, without outright deleting people's posts (which might be heavyhanded).

I'm fine with deletion of my posts, for the sake of thread continuity. As heated as it may have appeared (I don't see it like that, but), the political overlay in my posts were irrelevant to this thread. And for that I am sorry.