4Edition. Do you like it?

[Jester of the FoS]

The electronic tools are great; there's only one downfall. You have to have a computer handy.

For those with laptops, this is a non-issue. No one in my group has one, so we bring the books to the table (which I buy all of anyways). But the tools are great for when we're on our PC's between games.

The more I think about WotC's current market plan the more I realize they've lost the lead in the industry and just can't keep-up.

The tools are great, and a character creator program for PCs was an excellent idea... back in 1998 when they released the Core Rules CD-ROM.
Yes, more and more people use laptops at their game, but just as many have smartphones or portable digital devices. The reason they don't use them is because they can't.

The Compendium should have been designed with PDA, iPhones, and BlackBerries in mind. Instead, it's a graphics-heavy and slow program (I've seen fast, stripped-down versions for windows that show how speedy the database can be if it's not dealing with the UI).
There should be iPhone apps, a fast and portable Compendium, and quick problem-solving tools design for speedy use (such as a character managers -possibly exporting files from the Builder- and a die roller). Instead they're going for slow, awkward tools and a website that cannot be navigated on a small screen.

Likewise they pulled PDFs. Not only were they late in the game at adding digital books, they're now out of that market. They're just handing money to pirates. They should be pulling a Nintendo and having a large portion of their back catalogue (especially Fan Favourite and hard to find books) available online.

They also rely entirely on other companies for their revenue. Digital River is taking payments for them for DDI. Paizo and DriveThruRPG were selling their PDFs; amazon, FLGS, and Paizo again make a killing off their books. Essentially, they'd rather give their main competitor in their niche (Paizo) more money rather than sell the books themselves.

This gets even sillier when you look at the mini line. They cancelled and re-birthed it due to low sales (why? Because collectible mini games can't be designed the same way as card games, because minis take up ALOT more space). They didn't go fully non-random because it doesn't work with retail stores. Unfortunately, this overlooks the many, many online retailers who make a killing selling minis, happily making money WotC won't.
Fans and people are clammoring for mini sets (orc packs, Adventure packs, etc). A best-of mini-line that reprints old minis and can be flexibly arranged into custom sets (like Lego's wonderful online store) would be amazing!

[alhoon]

Or the type TSR had out.
The type of "I need 5 orcs, I go buy 5 orcs" not random picking, hoping that you'll eventually find as many as you need.

[Mortavius]

Well, since I see a lot speculation on your post Jester, I'll respond with speculation of my own.

I don't think Wizards has lost the lead in the industry; I think the exact opposite. Why? Because what RPG game books do I see when I go into my local gaming store? D&D 4E. What books do I see when I go to my local book store to order books? D&D 4E. Oh sure, I see some Rifts. Some White Wolf. Some 3E stuff. But what product always sits in the center shelf? I'm sure you can guess...

You might say, "Well it's in the center because WotC pays a premium for that spot." And yes, that would be true in a big chain. But not in a small local store. I can guarantee that. The product is there because it sells.

I'm encouraged by the new digital solutions WotC is offering with their products. I'm not upset by the fact at all that they can't officially be used by PDA's and iPhones yet, because frankly, WotC is a game-design company that creates hard-copy products. I don't expect that they have a large R&D department devoted to digital media and creating new digital products, because frankly it's not a prime concern for their company. Had they been a computer game company on the other hand, I would expect more. I would feel very ungrateful if I had the attitude of "Wow, I like your character creator...but how come you don't have apps and programs for all these other things already??"

And I'm of course not upset that there is no official die-roller program out there...OH WAIT! There already is about half a million perfectly good die-rolling programs out there, even if they aren't official! And there have been for YEARS now. In fact, I suppose I could get mad at WotC if they spent time on making such a die-roller and not on working on new apps for the iPhone, Blackberry, etc. If I had that attitude that is.

I suppose with the lack of PDF books they are handing money to pirates. Not like that is any kind of argument of course, because even if they HAD PDFs out there, the pirates would STILL be stealing the books. It's not like someone who is going to download a PDF of a book through nefarious methods is actually going to step back and say "Oh well. Since they have it for sale via download, I'll actually PAY to buy it rather than steal it like I was going to."

Seems to me that by not having PDFs, they're actually doing what they can to prevent theft, because once something is in a digital format, it's transferable online through many different channels.

It's funny though Jester, that you would say other companies make a killing through selling their books...do you think WotC just GIVES Amazon it's books to sell? Book companies all around the world have to buy the books from the publisher to sell them...that's they way ALL books work (and I can say that with authority, as I work in a book store). Seems to me like WotC is just doing what the publisher of any book is doing. Do you think Stephen King actually sells his books himself? No...he sells them through retailers, whether online or not. Retailers buy the book from him, and sell it to the customer. Pretty sound practice to me.

The minis game wasn't selling very well. And at the same time, WotC was getting all sorts of feedback about not wanting random minis (ala alhoon's post above). So what do they do? They make hero packs, all perfecty visible so the consumer knows exactly what they're getting, and although they can't make the monster packs completely visible (because that way they would have minis that never sell and others that sell out constantly), they do make one of the monsters in the pack visible.

And just to respond to alhoon's point about hoping you get enough minis? Well, that's why the Orc minis have almost always been commons; because WotC knows you're going to need a lot, and by buying a few packs, you'll hopefully get all you need.

And now to the point about the best-of-mini line. Seems to me that when I was perusing the D&D forums and when it was announced that some of the minis were repaints, all WotC got was complaints that the minis were old and just re-done and not new sculpts. Hmmm...sounds like they're getting crap no matter what, eh?

[HuManBing]

Re: the leading company issue: I think Jester's point is that WotC is no longer the lead innovator in the industry. Mortavius' point is that WotC is still the profits leader in the industry.

These two observations are not mutually incompatible. You frequently have the profits leader staying with the formula that works, because their past success builds up expectations of future success (which makes them risk-averse to innovations that may prove costly).

For a company that is not the market leader in profits, there is reduced expectation of future profitability which may free up some room for riskier innovation.



I will point out that GURPS has actually moved much more to a pdf-heavy release lineup. They still print some books, but they're making more money off the pdfs because they don't have binding and shipping costs. Do they lose more to piracy? Probably. But there is a real groundswell of supporters on their forums (myself included) who recognize a good match in the quality of the books and who will pay for the pdf rather than pirate it.

[alhoon]

I suppose with the lack of PDF books they are handing money to pirates. Not like that is any kind of argument of course, because even if they HAD PDFs out there, the pirates would STILL be stealing the books. It's not like someone who is going to download a PDF of a book through nefarious methods is actually going to step back and say "Oh well. Since they have it for sale via download, I'll actually PAY to buy it rather than steal it like I was going to."

The problem is that I would buy PDFs if they were out. Now, I don't buy them. Why? Because I can't find the books easily down here in Greece. They always arrive with a delay and not all books come in Greece. Sure I could order them through Amazon etc but still, I would have to carry the book around instead of saving it in my Laptop.

So no, they don't stop the pirates from stealing the book as you said. They stop me from buying it.

And just to respond to alhoon's point about hoping you get enough minis? Well, that's why the Orc minis have almost always been commons; because WotC knows you're going to need a lot, and by buying a few packs, you'll hopefully get all you need.

Yey! ! ! I have to just buy 3-4 packs of miniatures to get 5 orcs!
Along of course with a fiendish yuanti or another huge spider!
Usually in most boxes I get a few minis I want,some minis I may find useful in another time or that I can use differently (i.e. "Think this mini as a white dragon instead of black") and some that I mostly never use, like say... fire elementals.

As a note: I have spent more than 100 Euros in Minis. I don't have the orcs I need. I have 5 but not 10.
I'm thinking in buying Decent just for the minis and the tiles.

[HuManBing]

As far as minis go, you can actually buy some very good third party minis. They're metal, not plastic, so you generally have to paint them yourself, but they're one-per-purchase so you clearly know what you're buying.

They also work well cross-system, so even if I do have a load of DnD minis I can definitely use them for GURPS or Warhammer.

[alhoon]

Metallic? How much they cost? Where can I buy them? It has been some time since I last painted a mini. Sometime being at least 15 years.

I want to paint a D&D mini before that "sometime" equals the average age of D&D 4E player!

[HuManBing]

It's been a while since I've bought any (about a year and a half) but I recall the main brands I bought were:

Reaper Fantasy Miniatures

Ironwind Metals

I rarely stuck with any one product line though. Most of my purchases were done online for temporary discount sales or through ebay (although ebay has become very light on DnD prepainted minis - they used to have insanely good deals like 300 minis for $50 or something).

[Jester of the FoS]

There's also these:
http://www.reapermini.com/Miniatures/Le ... Encounters

Specifically:
http://www.reapermini.com/Miniatures/Le ... test/20009
and
http://www.reapermini.com/Miniatures/Le ... test/20007

Plastic, pre-painted, and packs of 3

[Jester of the FoS]

I don't think Wizards has lost the lead in the industry; I think the exact opposite. Why? Because what RPG game books do I see when I go into my local gaming store? D&D 4E. What books do I see when I go to my local book store to order books? D&D 4E. Oh sure, I see some Rifts. Some White Wolf. Some 3E stuff. But what product always sits in the center shelf? I'm sure you can guess...

I'd argue that relying on gamestores is ignoring half the market.

I'm not upset by the fact at all that they can't officially be used by PDA's and iPhones yet, because frankly, WotC is a game-design company that creates hard-copy products. I don't expect that they have a large R&D department devoted to digital media and creating new digital products, because frankly it's not a prime concern for their company. Had they been a computer game company on the other hand, I would expect more. I would feel very ungrateful if I had the attitude of "Wow, I like your character creator...but how come you don't have apps and programs for all these other things already??"

The problem is, they've based much of the impetus and value of 4e on the digital tools, so much that it was one of the key features announced at GenCon along with the actual rule set and the tools are still advertised in the backs of the three core books.
They willingly and voluntarily stepped into the digital world and should be judged accordingly.
I didn't complain about lack of digital items in the 3e days because there were none and WotC was sticking to the print world. Now they've gone digital and done it in a poor, dated, and haphazard manner I can criticize.

And I'm of course not upset that there is no official die-roller program out there...OH WAIT! There already is about half a million perfectly good die-rolling programs out there, even if they aren't official! And there have been for YEARS now. In fact, I suppose I could get mad at WotC if they spent time on making such a die-roller and not on working on new apps for the iPhone, Blackberry, etc. If I had that attitude that is.

Of course, now the 3PP are stepping-up:
http://iplay4e.appspot.com/
http://vsxp.com/scryer/

So, essentially, in their free time, people are putting out complementary or superior products that do the job the official product's cannot.

I suppose with the lack of PDF books they are handing money to pirates. Not like that is any kind of argument of course, because even if they HAD PDFs out there, the pirates would STILL be stealing the books. It's not like someone who is going to download a PDF of a book through nefarious methods is actually going to step back and say "Oh well. Since they have it for sale via download, I'll actually PAY to buy it rather than steal it like I was going to."

Seems to me that by not having PDFs, they're actually doing what they can to prevent theft, because once something is in a digital format, it's transferable online through many different channels.

The pirates will always be there. There were copies of Draconomicon II available on torrent sites before it was in stores. Copies of the latest release are found within a week or two of release, at most.
There are many people who would pay if given the option. If they were going to steal it they will still steal it, they'd never have purchased it. But if they were going to pay for it... now they have to steal it.

It's funny though Jester, that you would say other companies make a killing through selling their books...do you think WotC just GIVES Amazon it's books to sell? Book companies all around the world have to buy the books from the publisher to sell them...that's they way ALL books work (and I can say that with authority, as I work in a book store). Seems to me like WotC is just doing what the publisher of any book is doing.

I'm sure they make just as much money selling their books to stores as they do selling their books to Amazon.
My point was, if they sold their books themselves to the public at a price comparable to Amazon, they would make ALL the money they'd make selling it to Amazon plus the mark-up Amazon or game stores put on the book.
You say that "WotC is just doing what the publisher of any book is doing" but check out most publisher's websites and what will you find... ONLINE STORES!
And the funny thing about online stores... WotC could do what Paizo and the like are already doing and include a downloadable PDF of a book when you purchase a hard copy from them.

Do you think Stephen King actually sells his books himself? No...he sells them through retailers, whether online or not. Retailers buy the book from him, and sell it to the customer. Pretty sound practice to me.

No, but when he did the Plant and sold copies of the instalment through his website you can bet he pocketed the cash.
And King is a poor example because he's one of the old print vanguard (and still often writes on a typewriter); many new authors probably sell their books or merch off their sites.

And now to the point about the best-of-mini line. Seems to me that when I was perusing the D&D forums and when it was announced that some of the minis were repaints, all WotC got was complaints that the minis were old and just re-done and not new sculpts. Hmmm...sounds like they're getting crap no matter what, eh?

I complained about several of the repaints, but because they were worse than the originals (like the repaint of the bonded fire summoner, redone in a bumblebee colour scheme. Which was an example of the drop in quality as the old was uncommon and the new was supposed to be the equivalent to a rare). One of the repaints (a drow repaint, done as an elf/eladrin) was excellent and could easily have been mistaken for a new figure.
And part of the problem is also releasing repaints and charging full non-repaint price. A hero set with three new minis would cost the same as one with two or one new minis.

If they do repaints and announce it as a cheap alternative and charge less for the minis (because the initial development/manufacture costs are less) and the minis don't look terrible compared to the originals then there'll be fewer complaints.

[alhoon]

But if they were going to pay for it... now they have to steal it.

Or not aquire it at all unless they're willing to go to all the trouble with Amazon. And when people say "Hey DMG II is good. They fixed minions" they (including me in the "they") can only say "Cool. But I cannot see it".

I'm not talking generalities:
No PDFs killed 4E for me. They lost a customer. I cannot buy many of the books I want.

[Nukdai]

simple question that's hard to answer. Yes I like 4th edition as the classes are more balanced in powers. however the powers seem almost cookie cutter and combat has slowed down as characters search through paper work looking for that perfect power....and where all my skills at....Okay bring back 2nd edition.....

[alhoon]

Combat slowed down? In 4th edition?
Most people I have spoken with and I, think it makes combat go faster.

[NeoTiamat]

I think it's both.

Each individual combat round tends to go by much quicker, and it's faster to decide just what your character or the monster will do in any given round.

At the same time, fights tend to take more rounds (at mid-teens, seven or eight round fights are not uncommon, whereas in 3E those were very rare). This tends to be particularly noticeable in PbPs, where time length of combat is very much tied to rounds, not to time-spent-per-round.

[Mortavius]

I'd argue that relying on gamestores is ignoring half the market.

Fair enough, I would agree that ignoring online stores is definately ignorng part of the market. I'm not sure that it equates to half, as you say, because although there is definately more and more of a trend of online shopping, I would say that physical storefronts are still the most visible indicator of how a business is doing. Most retail stores use online sales to suppliment their business, and not as something to completely rely on. A few are the exception (NCIX, TigerDirect, etc.), but they're the exception that proves the rule. In fact, although NCIX started as online they have since even opened a few actual stores.

The problem is, they've based much of the impetus and value of 4e on the digital tools, so much that it was one of the key features announced at GenCon along with the actual rule set and the tools are still advertised in the backs of the three core books.
They willingly and voluntarily stepped into the digital world and should be judged accordingly.
I didn't complain about lack of digital items in the 3e days because there were none and WotC was sticking to the print world. Now they've gone digital and done it in a poor, dated, and haphazard manner I can criticize.

And that's a fair point I can respect. I didn't get to GenCon, so I don't have any knowledge of what they said there. If they are emphasizing digital content as much as you say, then yes, I agree that they should be judged on it accordingly.

So, essentially, in their free time, people are putting out complementary or superior products that do the job the official product's cannot.

Very true. But this is nothing new. As I said, this has been happening for years, before WotC or even TSR entered the digital market. Die-rollers have been available for probably as long as the internet has been around and longer; after all anyone with basic programming skills can write one. I used to do it in Qbasic back in my high school days.

I think it's the nature of the beast. No matter what, people will invent things to help them in their hobbies. From people writing add-ons for World of WarCraft to businesses creating play-aids for D&D (magnetized battle grids, tokens, etc.).

I'm not sure that it's realistic to expect a company to create everything you ever need for a particular hobby; if they did, that would be an indicator to me that the hobby in question isn't very popular and no one else cares about it.

The pirates will always be there. There were copies of Draconomicon II available on torrent sites before it was in stores. Copies of the latest release are found within a week or two of release, at most.
There are many people who would pay if given the option. If they were going to steal it they will still steal it, they'd never have purchased it. But if they were going to pay for it... now they have to steal it.

While there is validity to that statement, it's not entirely true, as you yourself (and others) have pointed out. Amazon is there to buy product off of. And I'm sure there are many other retailers.

I can sympathize somewhat with alhoon; I don't have a local gaming store in the area I live in now and the closest one is probably 3 hours away. I have book stores I can order D&D through, but it usually takes a good couple weeks to get the books in. For me, Amazon is the route I go. They get the product to me he fastest and with the best price-point. And I see what you're saying about WotC selling their own product, and I have to agree with you, that they would be able to keep all the profits. All I can say is that I'm 100% positive there is a reason why they don't do this. It's not a hugely innovative idea you're suggesting; anyone with a set of eyes and an internet connection could see the example in action. There must be a reason why WotC doesn't do this. What that reason is, and whether it's a good one or not, who knows?

many new authors probably sell their books or merch off their sites.

This is correct, though a quick internet search that I just did on many big author names reveals to me that about half of them offer stores on their websites and half do not (incidentally I used names like Dean Koontz, Diana Gabaldon, Dan Brown, Nora Roberts, and Neil Gaiman).

And part of the problem is also releasing repaints and charging full non-repaint price. A hero set with three new minis would cost the same as one with two or one new minis.

This one I can fully get behind. They should cost less. I don't know how feasible that is, realistically, but in a perfect world, they should cost less.