4Edition. Do you like it?

[alhoon]

My re-play of my previous 4E campaign with 3rd Edition rules:

As I have mentioned in the previous pages, I played a nice campaign in 4E levels 11-14. Enjoyed the fast combat and the skill challenges. I loved the easy DMing of 4E.
I liked it quite much so I'm replaying it, but in 3rd edition, lvls 7-?

Comparisons:
I enjoy it mostly the same. More difficult to DM but in a ruleset that I know far, far better. I also like that magic feels different than melee attacks, dealing a lot more damage, to a lot more people. Also, I make monsters far, far easier.
My sister enjoys it more than 4E. She likes making 3-4 attacks per round almost every round, criticals from 15-20 etc. Also she likes monsters dealing a lot of damage (a lot = 25% -35% of a char's hp) so that each attack counts.

Admitedly I learned a lot about what I want in an fantasy RPG combat from 4E.
- I now make use of far simplified monsters often, something I almost never did. So, now I can make a whole adventure in 30-40 mins, making my own monsters in the way, like in 4E.
- I also base my adventures on maps I already have. Gone is the era that I used to scetch where everyone is.
- I make use of a rule that I hate from 4E, but it's practical. Diagonical movement = 1 square not 2-1-2-1. Saved me a lot of trouble, when in 3rd Edition I was spending seconds trying to figure the best route to "save" the 1/2 square you miss with the 1st diagonical move.
- I make use of minions in 3rd edition.
- I figured ways to make monsters of lower CR threatening to a degree. Because in the past (3rd edition) I have found out that many 4 CR 2 monsters just aren't the same with a CR 6 monster.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

- I figured ways to make monsters of lower CR threatening to a degree. Because in the past (3rd edition) I have found out that many 4 CR 2 monsters just aren't the same with a CR 6 monster.

I'm interested to hear details on this point. It's something I've struggled with.

[alhoon]

I'll open a new thread then.

[nothri]

I've played a game or two in 4E. It was okay, I suppose. Didn't feel like D&D. What really made up my mind was that-

1. Its one thing not to bring RL into new edition. That's fine. Its another to actively restructure your cosmology such that you exclude the old setting completely. My interest was slightly piqued when they gave use Barovia in the Shadowfell, but wasn't long lived.

2. The final nail in the coffin was the 4e vampire. I think removing the common weaknesses from the vampire was done with the intent to make the creature more formidable and dangerous. Which is why I think my first thought of "How boring" was not what they were going for. But seriously- how boring. Give me a monster that has to be patient, methodical and intelligent to find ways around its weaknesses any day of the week over a monster that doesn't have them because 'weaknesses are dumb'. And on the opposite spectrum, a thing like a vampire is far more frightening when it lacks a weakness you expect rather than having nothing notable as the default.

So, in summation, screw that. I'm gonna hit up Pathfinder from her on out.

[Mortavius]

On the issue of Vampires, I hear what you're saying, but this was the case to a lesser extent in both 2E and 3E. The Van Richten Guides fleshed out Vampires much more in Ravenloft, and gave them more weaknesses (and powers). For example, in core 2E D&D, you couldn't hold a Vampire at bay with a holy symbol unless you were a cleric and actively turning it. But the Van Richten guide introduced rules for any character to do it. And that's just an example I can think of off the top of my head.

For my part, I'm thinking of ruling that in Ravenloft Vampires have more weaknesses than normal (ala, the old ones). But they also get more powers (ala the ones from VR Guides), so it equals out.

I didn't think they were making Vampires more powerful for any reason other than to sort of update Vampires with pop culture. Fact is, most Vampires of today don't have the traditional weaknesses of the past. The new 4E Vampires reflect that change.

Hell, even Bram Stoker said that Vampires *could* go out during the day.

[Isabella]

Hell, even Bram Stoker said that Vampires *could* go out during the day.

What does HE know?

[HuManBing]

For my part, I'm thinking of ruling that in Ravenloft Vampires have more weaknesses than normal (ala, the old ones). But they also get more powers (ala the ones from VR Guides), so it equals out.

This sounds like the Nosferatu vampires from the 2nd edition boxed set. They were a pretty cool, true-to-roots "Gothic" vampire without the level-draining elf pirate high heeled coiffeur costumes.

[Jester of the FoS]

4e Vampires, like all monsters, are only for combat and not for social, role-playing, or hunt based games. You don't need staking rules, or holding a vampire at bay, or weaknesses if you're engaging in a tactical fight with a vampire and it's minions.

For staking, that would be just finding its coffin and insta-killing. No rules needed. It's dead. For tricking or trapping a vampire in sunlight the same applies. It's dead. You win.

**

The problem with weaknesses, is they tend to be a balance. The monster is more powerful and resistant because it has an achilles heel. But, it becomes too easy for a DM (read: RPGA module or DM vs. Players game) to introduce a monster in a situation where the weaknesses don't apply. The vampire at night, the mummy underwater, etc. Then the players end-up facing a threat above their level or over CR.
Likewise, a clever party might negate a challenge resulting in an anticlimactic fight against a supposedly overpowering foe and disproportionate reward for the effort and risk.

Story time.
I ran a group through Castle Ravenloft, but only had three players so I let them each run two PCs and assigned 22 levels for them to divy-up amongst their PCs so they could have higher/lower PCs or use level adjustment monsters. One skimped on his sorcerer to get his cleric to L14 and access to sunbeam. When he jumped-out and fired that at Strahd it could have been game over right there.

As it turned out, I knew what that player was doing (he was a little too confident) and so I prepped Strahd with spell turning. Strahd appeared and acted spooky, the cleric laughed and hit him with the deathbeam which bounced back, blinding the cleric and knocking him down a flight of stairs. Strahd proceeded to briefly attack then laugh and run.

[Nathan of the FoS]

As it turned out, I knew what that player was doing (he was a little too confident) and so I prepped Strahd with spell turning. Strahd appeared and acted spooky, the cleric laughed and hit him with the deathbeam which bounced back, blinding the cleric and knocking him down a flight of stairs. Strahd proceeded to briefly attack then laugh and run.

Did the player then complain that sunbeam is an area-effect spell, and spell turning doesn't work on area-effects spells? 'Cause I sure would have.

[Jester of the FoS]

No, he didn't notice and neither did I. Although, I'd argue that lines and rays are functionally identical when used on a single target. Some late-in-the-game 3e funkiness for you.
But what Nathan pointed-out is something to remember next time you plan a by-the-book high level Strahd game.

[Nathan of the FoS]

Yeah, I was never very fond of the ray/line/single target distinctions, myself.

Regardless, the moral of the story is clear--never, never let players with sunburst memorized near your vampires, DMs! It will only lead to heartache, sadness, and very, very short fights.

[DeepShadow of FoS]

Yeah, I was never very fond of the ray/line/single target distinctions, myself.

Regardless, the moral of the story is clear--never, never let players with sunburst memorized near your vampires, DMs! It will only lead to heartache, sadness, and very, very short fights.

or an entire warship full of ghouls...

[Nathan of the FoS]

or an entire warship full of ghouls...

[NeoTiamat]

or an entire warship full of ghouls...

Hah. Nathan's once charged a warship full of ghouls with just a rapier. And won.

[Isabella]

Hah. Nathan's once charged a warship full of ghouls with just a rapier. And won.

"No, last I saw Nathan he was facing down an entire ghoulish army armed with only a small piece of cutlery."

*Nathan barges in*

"BLOOD! DEATH! WAR! RUMPY-PUMPY! TRIUMPH! I made it, thanks to my trusty fruit knife!"