Café de Nuit

Man... my review for my website is shaping up to be a six page monstrosity...

(Not that any of my reviews are terse and short.)

FiranDarcalus wrote:
I ordered through Amazon...what about you? We're both in the Mtl, strange you're getting it so much quicker than I am

Same!

Mephisto wrote:What bothers me is that everything is referred in comparison with CoS while ignoring that Vistani were more diversed in previous editions.

Because they were based on actual Roma groups, made into a semi-human race.

I'm serious, there's a Let's Read on RPGnet that points out the Kaldresh are literally a letter away from an actual Roma culture known for metalworker, and well, they were said to be literally outside of time, and largely amoral.

Traveling culture that explicitly has its origins somewhere is fine, especially since, well, you seem to be missing how they will pick up people who they trust enough to assimilate. So the idea that they're a monoculture just isn't true, in my reading.

Drinnik Shoehorn wrote:

Mephisto wrote:What bothers me is that everything is referred in comparison with CoS while ignoring that Vistani were more diversed in previous editions.

VRGttV will be ignored because it solves the problem they’re having now 20 years ago, and to acknowledge that would take away the opportunity for them to virtue signal how sensitive their Vistani are.

I always wonder how many people who are ranting about how "problematic" the older Version of the Vistani is, have ever read the books.

Leliel wrote:I'm serious, there's a Let's Read on RPGnet that points out the Kaldresh are literally a letter away from an actual Roma culture known for metalworker, and well, they were said to be literally outside of time, and largely amoral.

I just read the Kaldresh part from VRGttV and I didn't find anything amoral about it, in game terms I would consider the description given to be based on a True Neutral alignment. From the description it shows more how awful they are treated by the giorgios. As for the name sure it comes from the Romani subgroup Kalderash who are indeed smiths and metal workers. The Ravenloft version, if you want it to be described that way, is also divided in three subgroups The Vatraska (healers), the Equaar (animal handlers) and the Kammi (metal workers).

Honestly I don't see anything offensive with the Kaldresh concept of time. What the book offers is a glance in a different belief of how time is experienced by this tasque. If this is not diverse then what is?

Then isn't it the "old Ravenloft spirit" inspired by real world characters and pop culture*? For instance for Barovians (who are based on movie pop culture interpretations of Transylvanians) it is written in older books that they will under no circumstance go out after sunset, that they are xenophobic and keep to themselves. Do you believe that Romanian people should be offended by that description?

I don't. Because it is based not in real world people but in how Transylvanians are depicted in pop culture.

As I see it, any cultural similarities in Ravenloft to real world characters, places or cultures is a way of détournement. Take for instance Falkovnia which since Doktor Vjorn Horstman, from the 2nd edition, the first connection was made between Falkovnia and Nazi Germany which was overidentified with in the 3rd edition. I never thought that this was an insult to German people, I always saw it as a domain based on the attrocities that humans are capable of, with aspects of the domain been inspired by Nazi attrocities and personality cults of dictatorial regimes (Stalin, Mickey Mao, Mr. Hilter etc.) but also having a more faerie/fantasy aspect with the inclusion of fey creatures as satyrs and magical beasts as shadow unicorns, gryphons and hippogryphs. In addition to these there was also the "ancient dead from various cultures" concept in the domain, possibly in a way undermining the "purity of race" concept of the domain.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfl6Lu3xQW0

*For me that was the fun part of the world and one of the things that messed up Ravenloft for me in the 5th edition, taking it out of it's gothic tradition (books, 30's and Hammer movies etc.) and trying to create a D&D high fantasy one. Although I would argue (with myself) that as mentioned in another post the new Anhktepot looks a lot like Xerxes from the movie 300 (pop culture). But I would still use the old version since the pulp and pop culture representation of a mummy is closer to my taste of gothic horror.

PS: I still can't figure out this comment form the interviews...

“Whether it’s the Boris Karloff version [of The Mummy], or the Brendan Fraser one, there’s the story of outsiders coming in and having adventures in this other culture,”

Who told them there were no native character options from Har akir from older versions? I see this statement as gaslighting us to believe that many pre-existing aspects of Ravenloft didn't exist before 5th edition.

Leliel wrote:So the idea that they're a monoculture just isn't true, in my reading.

They are not monoculture in older versions, there were different tasques divided in clans:

The Kaldresh (Kamii, Equaar, Vatraska)
The Boem (Naiat, Corvara)
The Manusa (Canjar, Zarovan)

All these have different powers, philosophical views on life, clothing fashion and temperament.

Also Van Richten has a racist view on the Vistani in all previous VR's guides until he writes VRGttV where he understands how wrong he was. This could be an example of how to correct past gaming developer mistakes (in case his racism in the guides prior to VRGttV wasn't intentional for richer character development). He begins writting his guides hating the Vistani and in the end of his writting carrier he attones for his transgressions and reconciles with them. This is great heroic character development, ending his carrier fighting his own misconceptions, the evil within himself.

Leliel wrote:Because they were based on actual Roma groups, made into a semi-human race.

True but they are not depicted as inferior or in a racist way in past editions. When reading either past edition adventures or Ravenloft fiction, usually it is the giorgios (non-Vistani) who behave badly towards the Vistani and not the other way round. Naturally there are exceptions of evil Vistani who usually end up becoming Darklings (exiled evil Vistani, who lose most of their Vistani powers).

Only in CoS they are depicted as drunkard bandits (if you can define these as cultural aspects), which is a 5th edition book.

Leliel wrote:they will pick up people who they trust enough to assimilate.

There is in VRGttV a really nice concept of adoption by the Vistani called the Blood Rite which confers upon non-Vistani the status of a giogoto (jee-GO-toe), a giorgio who is “enlightened, yet not of the blood.”

Mephisto wrote:Then isn't it the "old Ravenloft spirit" inspired by real world characters and pop culture*? For instance for Barovians (who are based on movie pop culture interpretations of Transylvanians) it is written in older books that they will under no circumstance go out after sunset, that they are xenophobic and keep to themselves. Do you believe that Romanian people should be offended by that description?

I don't. Because it is based not in real world people but in how Transylvanians are depicted in pop culture.

To be totally fair, the Roma are arguably more impacted by negative stereotypes about them, being a tiny minority pretty much anywhere. I think that needs to be accounted for.

Igor the Henchman wrote:To be totally fair, the Roma are arguably more impacted by negative stereotypes about them, being a tiny minority pretty much anywhere. I think that needs to be accounted for.

In general yes, but in Ravenloft whenever something bad or stereotypical was written about the Vistani before CoS it was from the point of view of evil or immoral characters in Ravenloft novels. For instance if I remember correctly in one novel there was a sleazy Burgomeister that sexually harassed a Vistani girl and then was talking bad for the Vistani. The only "good" character talking bad about the Vistani was Rudolph Van Richten and even he in the end retracted his old view of them.

What I mean is that before Curse of Strahd there was no racial issue in Ravenloft with the Vistani. For instance they created a new word to describe this world roaming folk instead of the offensive word used before in D&D. Also similar to Vistani were the Rhennee of Greyhawk.

Mephisto wrote: Honestly I don't see anything offensive with the Kaldresh concept of time. What the book offers is a glance in a different belief of how time is experienced by this tasque. If this is not diverse then what is?

I don't have time to go line by line to explain exactly why it is that your post was completely missing my argument (the core thing is "Roma are mysterious and somewhat inhuman" is real-world racism, and it being about a fictional group of people that is quite clearly them with the serial numbers removed doesn't excuse it), but I can say this is not what I said at all. The concept of being outside of time isn't offensive, it's that the people with it are literally a human ethnicity with a minor name change, in the real world, while relying on ethnic stereotypes by people who want to kill them (the Kaldresh are based on the Kalderash, who are indeed a Roma culture known for being blacksmiths). It's just lazy, and it ends up making the intended mission of Guide to the Vistani - Van Richten overcoming his racism - a failure, IMHO.

I liked Guide to the Vistani. I read it front to back, and I am still going to mine it for ideas. It's just, well - I'm more aware of the world now. I know what kind of genre tropes it draws on, and their origins. And I don't blame anyone for deciding it's fruit of a poisoned tree. What you're seeing here isn't a product of hatred for original Ravenloft - it's a product of disappointment. I want Ravenloft to be more than that, and so, I'm happily advocating for overcoming a past mistake. Original Vistani are not the worst thing in the setting, not they are. But they are a very frustrating one.

I'm just going to note that Wizards also ended up releasing an errata document that basically obliterated everything to do with their initial 5e portrayal of Vistani and so trying to claim that 5e is worse is kind of a bad argument (it was worse - they learned their lesson and fixed it later), and erased it from the rerelease to the extent they could, and link the Let's Read that lays out why I think that choosing to leave the past behind on Vistani specifically (and to a greater extent hags - hexbloods "selling their soul" is far closer to being classic folkloric witches anyway) was an overall good move better than I could: https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads ... t-23784710

Leliel wrote:I don't have time to go line by line to explain exactly why it is that your post was completely missing my argument

MODERATOR NOTE: I'm going to try nipping this in the bud this time with a gentle steering before we get another explosion. Please refrain from accusatory language to other posters like this. The rest of your post is fine, as it sticks to the facts and your points, but stuff like this does nothing but rile people up. It's mild enough that I'm not even calling this a warning, but just please think twice or even thrice when writing something including the word "you" or "your" about how it could be perceived by that person.

In general I've been pleasantly surprised at the civility of the discussion here since the book came out, let's all work to keep it that way.

Jester of the FoS wrote:I'm pretty pro-diversity and fixing issues in the game but the response to Ezmerelda is eye rolling.
First, I don't know why she's called "Ez" now. Was her name an issue prior? (I saw lots of complaints regarding her hiding her leg and Vistani roots, but I don't recall anything on her name.)
Too hard to spell?

My guess: to distance her from Esmerelda, the Romani from Notre dame de Paris/The Hunchback of Notre Dame, arguably the most well known named "Gypsy Girl" character in pop culture/literature. If they're trying to distance the Vistani from the Roma, they may be trying to walk back on using Romani names, or what a 19th century Frenchman thought was a good name for a Romani. (I don't actually know how accurate a name it is).

Gotta say, I'm pretty cheesed that Azalin is but the more I read of this book, the more I'm feeling like they really half-butted the whole thing. Disappointing.

blackaeon wrote:Gotta say, I'm pretty cheesed that Azalin is

VIEW CONTENT:

out there floating around and no longer lord of Darkon as Firan Zal'honan

but the more I read of this book, the more I'm feeling like they really half-butted the whole thing. Disappointing.

Regarding your spoiler, from what I can tell...
— onmyoji

Leliel wrote: https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads ... t-23784710

I disagree with this article both as far as Vistani go as well as Hags. My argument on hags has been posted previously on this thread (page 13).
As I see it the WotC messed up, by portraying the Vistani based on a racist view of the Romani (already racist) stereotype in CoS. After a justifiably outbrake against racist stereotypes they retracted and reprinted it. To not do so would be unspeakable and probably would create a really big blow in sales and D&D in general, I am not going to congratulate them for stating the obvious. Personaly if they hadn't retracted I would refuse to buy any of their products.

Igor the Henchman wrote:To be totally fair, the Roma are arguably more impacted by negative stereotypes about them, being a tiny minority pretty much anywhere. I think that needs to be accounted for.

But no, I have no problem with VRGttV portrayal of Vistani, in fact I think it is one of the best books of the VRG series. I didn't just mention the pop culture connection of Tranlylvanians and Barovians in my post, I believe I made a good argument with Falkovnia and pulp fiction/real world Nazi Germany. Germans may not be a minority, but there is a kind of inherited mass cultural guilt felt by the majority when mentioning WWII and Nazi attrocities (as was humorously shown in the Faulty Towers link I sent).

Also the terrible mistake that WotC made by describing Vistani based on Romani racist stereotypes probably was the reason to make all these unnecessary, in my opinion, pseudo-radical changes in VRGtRavenloft.

Leliel wrote:the core thing is "Roma are mysterious and somewhat inhuman"

To avoid misinterpretions the quote above is not a statement it is quoted out of context.

I would say that Vistani are based on legends and pop culture portrayal of Romani, they are portayed as mysterious mystics. I wouldn't use the world inhuman.

But I have used the word détournement in my post and while my view of the old Ravenloft is based on this idea, I believe the new Ravenloft is based on it's opposite recuperation.

In the sociological sense, recuperation is the process by which politically radical ideas and images are twisted, co-opted, absorbed, defused, incorporated, annexed or commodified within media culture and bourgeois society, and thus become interpreted through a neutralized, innocuous or more socially conventional perspective. More broadly, it may refer to the cultural appropriation of any subversive symbols or ideas by mainstream culture.

Leliel wrote:I'm just going to note that Wizards also ended up releasing an errata document that basically obliterated everything to do with their initial 5e portrayal of Vistani and so trying to claim that 5e is worse is kind of a bad argument (it was worse - they learned their lesson and fixed it later), and erased it from the rerelease to the extent they could

I believe I have already answered to this, but I am going to emphasize that what I wrote is not in relation to 5e being worse than past editions. It is in relation to the 5e portrayal of Vistani in CoS becoming the cause or reason to make Ravenloft 5e worse (maybe for a minority of old Ravenloft DMs and players), as some in this Forum (including me) have described/mentioned for VRGtR.