Café de Nuit

alhoon wrote:I don't think gunslingers and Cavaliers were needed and I wouldn't pay for them.

Those are just two examples of the solid new base classes that PF has come up with. Many of them are novel and interesting. Do you need more classes than the core ones? No, but it's still untapped design space, and PF found it and mined it.

I have no idea what Chases, Arhetypes and Haunts are, and Words of Power? Are they PWKill etc?

Again, these are all innovative takes on the rules, which I agree weren't necessary, but were very useful and mostly novel. Archetypes in particular are a fantastic idea (basically swapping out class features in a rigorous way, much like 2e kits). If you're interested in learning about them, check out the PRD for free.

Yes, there are diminishing returns, but it's kind of funny to hear that 3e was "done" when Paizo keeps publishing new stuff for it and people keep snapping it up.

By "Done" I mean completely covered and already in rules changes (like Tome of 9 swords or those changes you presented) or just adding things up that people may add to their worlds (like Binders or those classes you mentioned).
There were few things left to explain and expand, PF as you said is now in new territory adding stuff or providing alternative rules.
If it works for them and they sell, all the power to them!

Not sure I'm getting what you mean by the first sentance. It sounds to me like it contradicts itself. Your saying it's "done" because all the rule changes, and are completely covered, and then go onto point to the things that are still coming out and could change people's games. Just like Shadow Magic, True Name Magic from another book that came out could change magic as well. I was looking at the witch class not to long ago in pathfinder still mining the depths of 3e and I don't think it's going to stop any time. I really need to give my friend back his 4e books since I don't forsee a time we will be using them between my Ravenloft Campaign, Pathfinder Campaign, and Shadowrun campaign. xD

Gonzoron of the FoS wrote:

alhoon wrote:I don't think gunslingers and Cavaliers were needed and I wouldn't pay for them.

Those are just two examples of the solid new base classes that PF has come up with. Many of them are novel and interesting. Do you need more classes than the core ones? No, but it's still untapped design space, and PF found it and mined it.

The most recent campaign we've started for PF uses APG, UC, UM classes only, and no base classes from the Core is allowed. I'm actually preferring the current class line up and options being played, than any game of primarily Core classes, I've ever played. I now prefer the Magus/Witch and Cavalier/Samurai to normal Wizard and Fighter. Gunslingers, not so much, as I've never cared much for guns in my D&D, but I won't knock PF for including them. Different strokes for different folks, and all.

I think Pathfinder has definetly carved its own niche in a seven-year-old game via archetypes. While 3.0 and 3.5 had dozens of extra classes, Pathfinder has 7 and has also reigned in Prestige Classes. Things that would otherwise be a class are now archetypes, or alternate classes. You can imagine things like binders, truenamers, or even warblades being variant classes or archetypes of an existing class.

Pathfinder is also doing a good job of supporting their new content. We got a bunch of new spells and the like for the new APG classes in most of the later books. WotC tended to only support classes in one book.

I never though 3e was finished. There were a half-dozen books people were regularly requesting that we never saw.

I'm really excited by the books Paizo is doing now, now that they've done the basics. Ultimate Equipment was what I've always wanted in an item book. Not just a big book of magic items, but lots of mundane items including all the ones from the Core Rulebook. Ultimate Campaign looks like a fun book of optional content for DMs. NPC Codex is a book I wished I'd had years ago. I'm unsure about Mythic Adventures, as I like lower powered games, but it might be occasionally fun and it looks like it might be a good way to make my boss monsters scarier.

Zilfer wrote:Not sure I'm getting what you mean by the first sentance. It sounds to me like it contradicts itself. Your saying it's "done" because all the rule changes, and are completely covered, and then go onto point to the things that are still coming out and could change people's games.

No, no. What I say is that the solid core is already fleshed out and all that remains are not "expanding on what's in PHB&DMG" but "Creating new content" or "Providing alternatives"

Also, I'm not saying PF is beating a dead horse or something, I just say that PF treads on territory already covered and gives it a new twist which some of the Frat seem to prefer. A book on equipment isn't something new for example, we had books for equipment in WotC too. Is this one better? I hope so. But still it's not something new. That's my main point.
PS. Alternate classes were in WotC books too. You could have a ranger without spells, pick traits based on race instead of canon ones etc. It was a popular change and I think that PF did well to expand on it. But again, that's not something new.

What sounds ... good is that they binded things that were spread over dozens of books in a single place. Mundane equipment as you mentioned. So, we don't have to scavenge the 12 weapons from Frostburn + search for the weapons in the fighter book + check the armors on the plane books etc to make an adventure on an icy outer plane.
IMO one of the best books of WotC was Spell compedium. Finally, I didn't have to remember all the spells from here and there; they were all compiled.

I think PF knows what gamers want and need. When WotC more or less refused to reprint material that was in other books it made things difficult for us. Sure there would be detractors saying "Hey! I had 60% of the content already in my 16 books!" Yeaaaah, kinda difficult to check through 16 books though.

Also what's this NPC Codex?

gotcha, makes much more sense now! xD

alhoon wrote: Also what's this NPC Codex?

http://paizo.com/products/btpy8sdq
Instead of the annual book of monsters, it's a book of NPCs. Of every core class from 1-20 and many NPC classes.

Meh... I wouldn't buy that. I'm pretty good at making NPCs on the fly and I doupt pregen chars will be what I would make them like. For example, I usually mix NPC with PC classes. Bandits may be warrior 2 but the average lieutenant leading 6-7 bandits would be Fighter1/War1 Or Fighter/Ranger.

I'm in agreeance with you there, alhoon. I would buy a theme book of NPCs if the theme appealed to me (ala Children of the Night series), but I'm not interested in a catch-all book of NPCs.

Hi, (been lurking)

In Paizo's defense, I will probably buy their NPC Codex.

Don't be too quick to dismiss the book based on (your) assumptions.
Flip through their Gamemastery Guide and look at the NPC section... It gives a description of that role in a campaign, so I'd be very curious to see what they do with a complete NPC book.

Paizon has a pretty good track record so far. And no, I don't own everything Paizo. Not even close.

Examples so you can see the classes used:
Vagabond: Com 2 / War 1
Hedge Wizard: Com 2 / Wiz 3
Battle Mage: Evoker 6
Shaman: Adept 7
Knight: Ari 2 / Pal 6
Pirate Captain: Ftr 7 / Rogue 5
etc.

Have a good one!
Patrick

If NPC Codex is half as useful as RLMCII, I'll be getting it. The type of product you don't know you needed until you read it.

Jonathan Winters wrote:In Paizo's defense, I will probably buy their NPC Codex.

Don't be too quick to dismiss the book based on (your) assumptions.

No need to defend Paizo, I have no grudge against them. However, I'm pretty satisfied with 3.5 so I don't plan to invest in PF. For a couple of things that I consider 3.5 is missing I can use their SRDs. Also, I prefer the original takes on many things like grapple etc. Personal preference. I know I'm the minority here.

Examples so you can see the classes used:

I doupt they have the same thing in mind as I want from my games, that's my main point.

Vagabond: Com 2 / War 1

Nope, I want them war 2.

Hedge Wizard: Com 2 / Wiz 3

Nope, I want them members of a modified, less powerful sorcerer class. Which doesn't exist in their books.

Battle Mage: Evoker 6

Could work, yes.

Shaman: Adept 7

Meh... I nearly never have NPC classes go that high in level. It would either be expert 2/ adept 5 or cleric 4/commoner 2
Oh, and I've modified the adept class to make it lesser clerics, no wizard spells and a bit different spell progression.

Knight: Ari 2 / Pal 6

Half my campaigns I don't even include the paladin class. Knights IMC are usually Fighter 3-4 or Aristocrat 1/Fighter 3.

Pirate Captain: Ftr 7 / Rogue 5

Too powerful, but usable for the high pirate leader if I need one.

As you understand from the examples I hope, I have very specific boundaries and world-set in my mind. From the NPCs in the book I would be able to use like 1/5 at most.
And most importantly: I don't actually need to buy a book about them since I'm good to make quick estimates of an NPCs stats and all.
Yes, I may need a 3 min break to make on the fly the captain of the town's guard that the PCs decided to attack on the fly, but with my current (and forseeable) financial situation, I would not buy a book to cut those 3 mins.

3 minutes? o.O' that's rather impressive. Though hopefully the PC's won't be testing the stats or level of the character. XD

Hi Alhoon,

I didn't explain myself well, it didn't sound like you were attacking Paizo in any kind of way, shape or form.

It just sounded like you weren't giving the book a chance. And yes, you are very picky!

Once, I get the book... At some point, I'll get back to you and let you know how it is.

I just wanted to point out that the NPCs in the GM Guide weren't just optimized NPCs. It runs the gamut really.
As far as my DMing style goes, I really like having these around to help me shape NPCs on the fly and in case a fight erupts.

Bye for now!

Patrick