Café de Nuit

SilentRave wrote:I get that this is how you guys might feel but the argument doesn't contribute to the matter at hand, which is the content and the reason it HAD to be rebooted. Why did it HAVE to be rebooted ? Why is there a blindfolded hypothesis that the only other alternative was content already visited in the Gazetteers ?

I don't think it HAD to be, but I'm sure the WotC people involved looked at the alternatives and picked the one they thought would sell the most books. (not just this book, but keep people buying other ones.) The people who are buying lots of D&D books these days are likely not the people who care about the old continuity. They went for the bigger market and decided to reboot. Once that decision was made, everything else derives from that. There's no need or reason to keep any one thing when you're rebuilding everything in a new image.

There is certainly a catch-22 in that if you just reprint and make things the way they were, you're not giving anyone anything new.

But, despite that, I think Domains of Dread and Ravenloft Third Edition still managed to keep the old and find the new in the old.
And it's possible to add to the old while retaining what was there.

Looking and van Richten's Guide to Ravenloft, the new would have been how each featured domain gets a page of adventure hooks: how to have adventures in that land. And the focus on the personality of the darklords.

They could have added the plague elements to Richemulot without much revision to the existing. Added the Dangerous Game hunt to Valachan. The names of the noble families and Ivan's clockwork toys to Borca.

Right now, I'm working on an update to my book of darklords. Because it's been selling rather well as, apparently, people want statblocks for darklords. In addition to a few new lords, I'm also going through and adding personality traits, like was done for the lords in VRGtR.
And that's freakin' hard.
So many darklords are just such blank slates that listing their personality, ideal, bond, and flaw is a challenge.

Instead of reworking a domain that worked, like Lamordia, Dementlieu, or Falkovnia they should have reworked Verbrek, Keening, and Vechor. Given us a better reason to adventure in there. Something to do with Tristessa.

Jester of the FoS wrote:Instead of reworking a domain that worked, like Lamordia, Dementlieu, or Falkovnia they should have reworked Verbrek, Keening, and Vechor. Given us a better reason to adventure in there. Something to do with Tristessa.

Or just create some wholly new ones for everyone to play with. It's one thing to reboot a setting and need to rewrite anything. It's quite another when Ravenloft is unique as a setting in that adding to it (as WotC acknowledges) is not only fairly easy to do and easily explainable, but also adds to its greatness.

There's so much kickback here (and rightfully so!) for screwing up domains we all know and love, but if they gave us all something completely new to work with—new domains with new darlords/darkladies—that's something that could easily have bridged the gap between old and new players and been something everyone, regardless of Ravenloft experience, could have bonded over.

But, as we all know, it's far easier to just pull out something a couple of decades old, dust it off, give it a fresh coat of paint, and sell it off as something novel.

— onmyoji

onmyoji wrote: Sorry if I sound like a broken record, but I feel like WotC totally missed their own mark by spending an entire chapter detailing how to make your own domains with ease, and then not actually making any new ones themselves. If the old lore is so problematic, then why didn't they just give the 2-8-page domains a paragraph or two and give us half a dozen SOLID completely new domains.

[...]
I honestly think that would've been the best case situation, and the sad part of that is that it was fully and unequivocally within WotC's power to deliver that to us. But they took the easy route instead.

You know what, I think you are right.
Indeed now that I read your opinion, it makes less sense to not simply make Valkofnia instead of Falkovnia-but-zombies. Why make a city of poseurs with an incorporeal ruler that disintegrates people ... and name it "Dementlieu" instead of something else? I am not talking about changing anything else except of the name of the city and the name of the domain. Just two names. Keep the darklord a d'honaire and let us puzzle out how THAT happened.
It would create an avalance of discussion whether Dominic found a way to circumvent his curse but his child was never-born except as a literally empty suit or if it was Celeste D'Honaire or whether it is a love interest that overcame her revulsion to him for the power or a woman he never cared, just married for convenience etc etc etc.

I swear, I don't think anyone here would suspect that this decadent, Renaissance-like city was Dementlieu. Give it an Italian name and none would be the wiser. Just... change two names.

It would also have given them room to make a few domains that catered to the diversity and inclusion that WorC is clearly emphasizing in this book. And then if they cared to make a domain with a minority/LGBTQ+ darklord, then they would ALSO have the opportunity to detail how and why that narratively makes them who they are.

Which is more than I can say for our newly-sex-changed and race-altered characters. There's rarely explanation to be found, and thus, I can't bring myself to see it as anything more than pandering. Is it problematic that virtually every Ravenloft character is a white cis-male? Sure. Do we fix that by just randomly changing the skin, gender, or sexual preferences of many of them? Not without some kind of rationale.

Like, with Mordenheim, it's a bit of a stretch, but I would have at least been able to admire a writer who wanted to discuss Victor Mordenheim's decision that the masculine body was somehow impeding his own progress and he came to experiment upon himself (likely by proxy in some cases) and eventually gave themself a new female body that was more able to satisfy their needs. And from then on, they were Viktra. Connection established!

Now admittedly, that took about 30 seconds and is far from my best work, but it at least justifies a Victor-Viktra transition in a way that has at least has some narrative backing that a DM wouldn't find difficult to auument and strengthen. And it doesn't feel like pandering anymore. Plus, bonus trans darklady representation. Win-win-win!

— onmyoji

onmyoji wrote:Like, with Mordenheim, it's a bit of a stretch, but I would have at least been able to admire a writer who wanted to discuss Victor Mordenheim's decision that the masculine body was somehow impeding his own progress and he came to experiment upon himself (likely by proxy in some cases) and eventually gave themself a new female body that was more able to satisfy their needs. And from then on, they were Viktra. Connection established!

Reading about this idea I couldn't resist thinking the 1994 movie Junior with Arnold Schwarzenegger being pregnant, I wouldn't personally use it but I will add to what was written. Victor Mordenheim having lost the pathos to create life after his masterpice Adam (but in reality the gods punished him by exchanging his soul with the animating force of his construct) has the idea to create life by giving birth to it. He begins an hormonal therapy that slowly changes his body, being focused on his new goal to give birth, he slowly changes sex and becomes Viktra.

Mephisto wrote:Reading about this idea I couldn't resist thinking the 1994 movie Junior with Arnold Schwarzenegger being pregnant, I wouldn't personally use it but I will add to what was written. Victor Mordenheim having lost the pathos to create life after his masterpice Adam (but in reality the gods punished him by exchanging his soul with the animating force of his construct) has the idea to create life by giving birth to it. He begins an hormonal therapy that slowly changes his body, being focused on his new goal to give birth, he slowly changes sex and becomes Viktra.

See? Two of us here at this forum take a few minutes of not even trying and we've already done more justice to Mordenheim and for inclusivity and representation in Ravenloft than this entire canonical book. How disgusting that they couldn't be bothered. More shame on them, say I.

— onmyoji

Sorry for the hiatus, IRl stuff were overwhelming recently.

I waited this book because i felt our beloved setting needed to be dusted and, as Alhoon and Jester already said it, it worked for Har'akir, Borca or Bluetspur for example. I also like the change they made to the Shadowlands for example, Ebonbane is the darklords and all others are just souls tied to it, it's cool ! As the Mordent, i liked it.

But i was disapointed in the way some darklords were just throwed away (the Phantom Lover or Death for example) in the Korr "domain" and others were juged useful (Risibilos ? REALLYYYY ?! I'll stay with the FoS version on this one).

I feel sad for the setting because even if some changes can be used (the new dementlieu can be cool, as Alhoon said, just change two names) lot of others were just made for twitter's applauses or are completly illogical and unecessary.
I personnaly don't care about diversity, so race and gender swapping are not a problem, when they are justified and lot of them are just bland and made for the shake of apeasing a mob that will always be angry, no matter what is made, even worse, it could backfire horribly.

As an example, i would take I'cath. Now, the darklords is fighting against colonialism, as China did, i'm ok with that. But the worst of their vision of the domain is just how it was better before Tsien Chiang acted. So why this change was made ? If i was a part of an angry mob, i could use this to attack the writters.

Another changes are made for the worst, Peter Van Riese is now just a bloodthirsty pirate and the Sea of Sorrow is now a mix between Saragoss and the old domain... Kass the Destroyer is more dumb than ever and so on. Some darklords are as Dominic D'Honaire was: bland. (yep, i agree with alhoon on him !). Hazlik is now the new Azalin since he inherited the same malediction. Azalin just disepeared and Jender Sunstar is now showed as a vilain... And reducing Darklords as common vilains with any statblocks is disapointing.

In my opinion, and just that, nothing more, Ravenloft is now reduce to what it was at its beginning: a "week end in hell" kind of a setting. I never liked this period because it misses all the world building, cultural development and history writting the "Domains of Dread" book had, even today, it is one of my favorite book. It is why i worked on map for the several clusters, the setting NEEDS worldbuilding and to push the timeline further.

This book just make the exact opposite, it destroy everything that was created to make it a coherent setting. i was waiting for it, even if i was worried how the writters were mocking the old editions. Now, i'm just disappointed and, to be honest, i don't care about official products anymore because they wrote it with the twitter mob in mind.
I will rather report my attention, and my money, to fan's products as this one:
https://www.dmsguild.com/browse.php?aut ... or%20Press

The conversion in 5th edition of all darklords coming from the old ones. I'm all for it, i'll support this rather than poorly written products than try to destroy the past rather than creating anew.

Just my two cents rent.

Edit: i would just add i find REALLLLYYY weird that Lyssa Van Zarovich can now be the reincarnation of Tatyana. So we have the choice between incompetent writting team or... incest is cool now ? WTF is this writting team ?!
Note: if any moderator feels my post need to be edited, i will not mind it ^^.

kourkenko wrote: Edit: i would just add i find REALLLLYYY weird that Lyssa Van Zarovich can now be the reincarnation of Tatyana.

It is icky. And Tatyana was supposed to be a pure soul. Even saying that she can be reincarnated as a bloodthirsty, opportunistic monster-wannabe that actually turned to a monster is shocking IMO. Throw in "And she's his niece!" and it gets weird and not the nice weird, like the feeling of an alhoon's tentacles rubbing the inside of your brain before extracting it, which as some of you already know, is the best feeling.

alhoon wrote:

kourkenko wrote: Edit: i would just add i find REALLLLYYY weird that Lyssa Van Zarovich can now be the reincarnation of Tatyana.

It is icky. And Tatyana was supposed to be a pure soul. Even saying that she can be reincarnated as a bloodthirsty, opportunistic monster-wannabe that actually turned to a monster is shocking IMO. Throw in "And she's his niece!" and it gets weird and not the nice weird, like the feeling of an alhoon's tentacles rubbing the inside of your brain before extracting it, which as some of you already know, is the best feeling.

I agree, i hope it is a rushed writing and a lack of knowledge of the setting rather than... Let's say it is a lack of knowledge.
The book can be good for character's creation, even if someone needs rules for creating new domains and darklords, they will find them. The crunch is good, the fluff is average at best, disturbing at worst.

And i just read it fast, looking at it for what... ten minutes ? I find the overall wrting rushed to the extreme and some "between the lines" histories of some Npcs disturbing...

kourkenko wrote:I agree, i hope it is a rushed writing and a lack of knowledge of the setting rather than... Let's say it is a lack of knowledge.

I'd say it's rushed, if anything. They included vampire illithids, which are to my knowledge only found in Lyssa's own plotline. Kinda hard to report on one and miss the other.

And what's more, it's not like Lyssa married out of Strahd's clan and has a different surname. She's very clearly Lyssa von Zarovich. Even if she's not *directly* related, even possessing the same surname should've given the writers pause. It's not like their surname is Smith or Jones. Anyone with the Von Zarovich name is somehow related.

— onmyoji

kourkenko wrote:
Edit: i would just add i find REALLLLYYY weird that Lyssa Van Zarovich can now be the reincarnation of Tatyana. So we have the choice between incompetent writting team or... incest is cool now ? WTF is this writting team ?!
Note: if any moderator feels my post need to be edited, i will not mind it ^^.

I don't think it's cool... but it sure is horrific and disturbing.

And while I'm all for horrific and disturbing in a nightmarish prison realm like Ravenloft, I'm pretty sure that including hints of incest in the book is diametrically opposite to WotC's current efforts to promote "safe play experiences." So either a writer and/or editor probably made a big gaffe here. Wonder how long it'll take for that to become the next big public backlash?

TwiceBorn Reborn wrote: I don't think it's cool... but it sure is horrific and disturbing.

And while I'm all for horrific and disturbing in a nightmarish prison realm like Ravenloft, I'm pretty sure that including hints of incest in the book is diametrically opposite to WotC's current efforts to promote "safe play experiences." So either a writer and/or editor probably made a big gaffe here. Wonder how long it'll take for that to become the next big public backlash?

Finding material to launch a backlash with this book is way easier than any others WotC wrote. I mean if someone realllly want to create one, this person would have only to choose.
By trying to be "inclusive" they convey the message that anyone, no matter the race, the gender or the sexual prientation is being able to be part of the worst of mankind. Strangly, no one seems able to read between the lines and this kind of writing is "stunning and brave".

Imo hte implication of Lyssa being a tatyana reincarnation was deemed "cool" during meeting but how can no one knew she is Strahd nephew ? Between this and the overall message, this book have, on social media, the potential to be freaking destructive.

TwiceBorn Reborn wrote:

kourkenko wrote:
Edit: i would just add i find REALLLLYYY weird that Lyssa Van Zarovich can now be the reincarnation of Tatyana. So we have the choice between incompetent writting team or... incest is cool now ? WTF is this writting team ?!
Note: if any moderator feels my post need to be edited, i will not mind it ^^.

I don't think it's cool... but it sure is horrific and disturbing.

And while I'm all for horrific and disturbing in a nightmarish prison realm like Ravenloft, I'm pretty sure that including hints of incest in the book is diametrically opposite to WotC's current efforts to promote "safe play experiences." So either a writer and/or editor probably made a big gaffe here. Wonder how long it'll take for that to become the next big public backlash?

Maybe they were told to make the game something the whole family could play and misunderstood.

Drinnik Shoehorn wrote:

TwiceBorn Reborn wrote:

kourkenko wrote:
Edit: i would just add i find REALLLLYYY weird that Lyssa Van Zarovich can now be the reincarnation of Tatyana. So we have the choice between incompetent writting team or... incest is cool now ? WTF is this writting team ?!
Note: if any moderator feels my post need to be edited, i will not mind it ^^.

I don't think it's cool... but it sure is horrific and disturbing.

And while I'm all for horrific and disturbing in a nightmarish prison realm like Ravenloft, I'm pretty sure that including hints of incest in the book is diametrically opposite to WotC's current efforts to promote "safe play experiences." So either a writer and/or editor probably made a big gaffe here. Wonder how long it'll take for that to become the next big public backlash?

Maybe they were told to make the game something the whole family could play and misunderstood.

"You IDIOTS!!!" screams WotC CEO Chris Cocks.