To Retcon or Not Retcon: That is the Question

[Lord Cyclohexane]

BUT, I will mention again that we might want to find a way to make the setting more dynamic. The presence of darklords makes RL a static political environment. Maybe that would have been a problem that the K would have addressed? How long can (almost) ALL the political rulers of the core live before someone starts asking questions?

I agree, most (~90%) of the DLs of 758 are the same ones from 735 (Black Box), which is a touch too static for my taste. I'd like to see a little upheaval. Most DL changes occurred *prior* to 735 (save the few from the Great Upheaval), but I'd like to see some *current* assassinations along the lines of Jacqueline Renier killing Claude or Ivana Boritsi killing her mother Camille.

That said, I don't care for your solution, of just eliminating the notion of Darklords. I'd prefer to see the War of the Western Core get into full swing and see just how many Darklords remain in their current positions and how many are replaced in the fires of war and uprising. Let's see just how many Darklords, who more than deserved their positions ~30 years ago, can retain their title against the new crop of villains who grew up in the shadows the DLs cast.

And in the end, will it be that society has changed and thus unconsciously and collectively picked a new Darklord to represent itself, or will it be that individual moving closer and closer to Darklord status that has changed the society to reflect his/herself? It's been a whole generation of Ravenloft; let's see society change a bit.

[Lord Cyclohexane]

Oh, but I'm threadjacking...

I say "Nay" to RetCon'ning, outside of the little bits needed when putting out a new version of Ravenloft (to allow clusters to exist pre-DoD, to allow Mistways to exist pre-RLCS, etc). It may be daunting to jump into a setting that has as much history as Ravenloft, but 1) there's not that much history compared to most other campaign settings, and 2) Ravenloft is the easiest campaign to jump right into and pick up on that old history.

I think it's just fine the way it is.

That said, I also like some of the earlier ideas, of spawning ideas for running campaigns in earlier time periods of Ravenloft. After reading GazII's Darkonian History section and the Keening section of GazV, I'd really like to create a resource for running adventures in the Barovian Cluster, centered around the beginnings of trade and outreach between the new domains, the culture of Marbh-Cathair and its destruction, etc. I think the idea of Historical Adventures might be a neat idea for a book of adventures along the lines of a DT&DL.

[Jester of the FoS]

And I take no scorn in saying this, screw the new players.

I do not agree.

This assumes we're really going to see new players. I expect one, maybe two, from Castle Ravenloft, but no more than the occasional new poster we see here anyway. And not nearly equal to the rate people are leaving.

[Le Noir Faineant]

Are so many people leaving the FoS and the setting? - I didn't feel that way. I mean, it's natural that activity decreases during the summer, and I always took for granted that many might get interested more during the classical RPG months, november through february.

Plus, there's one concern I have in general about RPG discussion in general - forgive me if I sound like a wanna-be teacher here:

RPGs, above all other things, have to played; when people talk too much about the virtual worlds they have created, and focus too much on detailing them to the very last little corner, IMO the RPG aspect looses.

I am not talking about the FoS works in particular, of course, but I think of my once-favourite gaming world, Greyhawk: Over at www.canonfire.com, people keep discussing canon consensus etc. and what books Mordenkainen might have read when he was young.

Well, while that's nice and even intriguing, it has nothing to do with the traditional gaming aspect, and thus, lesser and lesser people feel akin to discuss there.

The further developed a setting is, the more the point that each campaign is, in the end, the independent creative work of a DM, and not to be judged or worked out on a common creative basis. - In the end, everyone will do as he pleases, and that's right.

Now, especially in the case of RL, in-detail-development has been the outline for the last few years. Personally, while I welcomed the Gazs, and the many supplementary books, my home games haven't changed too much since then.

In short, what I want to say is, if you want to promote the setting, and sell it to more people, stop being creative, and start gaming.

There's plenty of material out there that is free, and nice, and has to be used: With all the kind words about the new Souragne gaz, I get the feeling that I am the only one here who actually uses it in a campaign. Why?
Or: Anyone gathered his friends and led them through *From the Ashes* lately?
Or did anyone EVER run *Winter's Sorrow*, or *An Unwelcome Respite* or many of the other marvellous stuff from the QtRs? - I bet not...

For me personally, the Halloween celebration last year with the PbP was a highlight in the story of the setting, although I could not participate. More things like that, for example, would serve as much more successful promotion than anything else, I think.

In short (again ): Play people, play whenever possible!

[Baduin9]

One thing should be pointed out - whether we like Weekend in Hell adventures or not, we must remember that the rules of Ravenloft were invented specially for them. In each domain there is a darklord, as a final boss to be killed. He can close the borders, so the PC cannot escape before they finish the adventure. If he is killed, the domain disappears, and the adventure is over, etc.

Of course, such rules as "no detection of evil", or "Domain reflects Darklord's character" have more universal application.

But the rules taken together make more elaborate politics between domains impossible - and the new Gazetters go in that direction. How can you have a serious war between Darklords, when the domain borders are set in stone, each Darklord can close the borders of his domain etc. You cannot occupy part of the domain - if the border is closed, your soldiers will be imprisoned there. And if you defeat and kill a darklord, the domain can disappear, or a new, more powerful darklord can appear.

Jonathan Winters suggests having unclaimed borderland between domains, so the darklords can fight there. If you want to have inter-domain politics and wars, it is certainly a move in the right direction.

As for me, Ravenloft works well as it is.But if you want more politics and wars, there are other books and games with domains and lords. I'm thinking mostly about Zelazny's "Jack of Shadows" and "Dominions" computer games.

In both the lord determines character of domain, but domain borders are not fixed. Each ruler has a power center, where he is strongest. His power diminishes the farther you are from his lair. At certain point the power of one lord diminishes to the point it is equal to the power of the neighbouring one. And there is the domain border.

Since the power of a darklord can change - (the mechanics depend on system, in Dominions it depends on the number of subject and their fervor) - the domain borders can shift. Political borders usually more or less reflect domain borders, since it is very difficult to fight on enemy soil.


Here is a quotation from Zelazny which explains the idea:

""Your prisoner?" he heard the Baron shout. "He is mine!"
"We have been good neighbors for a long while, Baron-since the last geography lesson I gave you," said the now discernible figure which stood atop the rock. "Perhaps a refresher course is now in order. These markers serve to indicate the boundary between our realms. The prisoner stands on my side of the marker-as do you and your men, I might add. You are, of course, a respected visitor; and the prisoner, of course, is mine."
"Lord," said the Baron, "this has always been a disputed border-and you must bear in mind, too, that I have been pursuing this man across my own realm. It seems hardly fair for you to interfere at this point."
"Fair?" came the laughing response. "Speak not to me of fairness, neighbor-nor call the prisoner a man. We both know that the boundaries are limits of power, not of law or of treaty. For as far as my power reaches from its seat, High Dudgeon, the land is mine. The same applies to you in your place. If you wish to renegotiate the boundary by a contest of forces, let us be about it now. As for the prisoner, you are aware that he is himself a Power-one of the few mobile ones. He draws his strength from no single locale, but from a condition of light and darkness. His captor cannot but benefit from his services; therefore, he is mine. Do you agree, Lord of Offal? Or shall we reestablish the boundary this moment?"
"I see that your power is with you-"
"Then we are obviously within my realm. Go home now, Baron."

[BigBadQDaddy]

About this:

And I take no scorn in saying this, screw the new players.
******

Hum, yes that might be a bit harsh... Not the best of ways to promote the setting.

Patrick

It may be a bit harsh, but understand that if wizards is'nt doing anything new for the series or promoting the book, why should we feel it is in our interest to cater to a whole new audience?
In my opinion, we have been left high and dry by the publishers. I just think it would be in our best interest to keep the game alive for us. And if we happen to string along a few new players, great, but I honestly believe that getting new players shouldn't be our priority. We are not selling anything, nor would we ever have the liscense to do so.
All I am saying is that we can do tour best to keep the game alive for ourselves since no one in the business is going to.

[Jester of the FoS]

About this:

And I take no scorn in saying this, screw the new players.
******

Hum, yes that might be a bit harsh... Not the best of ways to promote the setting.

Patrick

It may be a bit harsh, but understand that if wizards is'nt doing anything new for the series or promoting the book, why should we feel it is in our interest to cater to a whole new audience?
In my opinion, we have been left high and dry by the publishers. I just think it would be in our best interest to keep the game alive for us. And if we happen to string along a few new players, great, but I honestly believe that getting new players shouldn't be our priority. We are not selling anything, nor would we ever have the liscense to do so.
All I am saying is that we can do tour best to keep the game alive for ourselves since no one in the business is going to.

The obvious rebuttal is that if we ignore the new players the community stagnates and, at best, doesn't grow. More likely it would shrink, either slowly or rapidly as other books are produced.
By working for newcomers, encouraging new players, the community and setting will grow and continue to exist for longer.

However, I believe if we cater strictly for newcomers, we lose something. We regress and negate so much progress and change. I've seen this done before; the easiest example being SOE's running of EverQuest that catered to new players at the expense of necassary change and the old players who'd give the game years of support.

There needs to be a balance between support and easing newcomers in and expanding things for the longtimes who've been around since the Black Box. New books should have something for both and, while it is too late for the Zherisian Gaz, it's something we should think about for next time (such as the next QtR).

[BigBadQDaddy]

Just as a clarification to my earlier statements, I am not saying that we attempt to exclude anyone new from enjoying the setting or even preventing anyone from enjoying the benefit of the great resources members of this community have created.
All I am saying is the concept of "Hitting the Reset Button" on Ravenloft continuity is a bad idea. Granted, the revisiting of the setting may attract new players, but it is going to frustrate many of the hard core fans who have put years and years of work and invested alot of there money in this setting.
When I say "screw the new players" I am saying that to ignore everything that has been published or created since the inception of this setting would be to screw the long term fans. And in all honesty, I would be much more interested in catering to the hard core fans who have been with this setting and contributed alot to it, being either writing there own adventures, posting campaign journals, writing the QTR and Undead Sea Scrolls, or even just sitting down to play, over the hypothetical "New Players".
We all have sat down and plugged away ton's of hours into making ourselves fluent in Ravenloft's history and all the great things about it. Why should that be any different for players who are just now getting into Ravenloft? We were all NEWBs once, and we all had to work our tales off to learn the setting, and it was worth it. And all the material that has come out over the years has only fueled our knowledge of the game and helped us to further appreciate (Obsess) it.
When it comes down to it, I would hate to see a good thing like the current incarnations of QtR and the Gazeteers go to the wind. I would not protest a revamp of the system as perhaps, an alternate continuity line or something (Eg. The Ultimate lines from Marvel Comics).
In retrospect though, I do have to laugh, I just knew I was gonna get hammered for opening my mouth.

[Archedius]

I agree with Big-Q for the mostpart. Retconning is stupid and uneeded. How is this setting convoluted? The metaplot is simple and straightforward: Azalin wants to ignite a war in the western core and find some way to free Malocchio from the Vistani spell. There, I just put the entire metaplot in one sentance- you cannot do that in any campaign world; not FR not Ebberon. I think its ridiculous to want to retcon the setting because of details that are DM SPECIFIC. The great thing about this setting is how DM's can mold it to thier needs so easily and still have supporting details and mechanics. To take that away just because it can be both a weekend-in-hell setting and a sustainable one is to cut off your nose despite your face.
Will we get new players? Maybe. But lets focus on the ones we have now-US. Besides the forums are here as always to help iron out questions on the world.
I think its also important for us to recognize that regardless of what side you're on we all want one thing- to see the setting live on. So if I or anyone else comes across harsh, I still love all of you and the setting.

[midnightcat]

I say , NO to Retcon. I once learned everything about Ravenloft from the start. it is not hard to do. Also. everyone keeps talking about "new Player", well I don't see this site creating "new players" in general. Let me explain, for this site to influence a person they have to have interest in Horror or Ravenloft. They have to seek out the setting, and more info on the setting. Also, a publisher would have to create Books to keep people informed that this setting exsists. Whether WOTC will contiue to do this after " Castle Ravenloft" has yet to be seen. We can keep Ravenloft alive in our hearts, bet we can't keep the setting officially alive., only WOTC can. When the Kargatane took over Ravenloft, they didn't thow the Baby out with the Bath water.

As a DM I prefer more information, then less. I also dislike the weekend in hell. I don't have alot of time to create new things these days for my player. Modules, and Gazatteers help me out., and I am able to create a long campaign for Ravenloft.

[eidolon]

Ravenloft in the old days was simple and straight foreward. A treat for players who like it that way and a relief from all the complex stuff. But those of us who started that way have evolved with teh game, have searched for more background and I for my part was enjoying reading and re-reading the gazetteers which I all bought in one pack.

There is this new mood in RPG land. Rebooting. White Wolf admits its system has become complex and messy. So they end it all in flames and start a fresh (as a Mage ST I expected much, tried it and found myself dissapointed). ADnD becomes D&D 3.ed then 3.5 ed. And it is cleaner and invites for straight foreward good gaming. I like the new system much better than the old.

When it comes to background info, I prefer a rich background. My players don't read any of the books of Ravenloft which gives me the liberty to inlcude and exclude whatever I like.
And should there come a re-boot, I shall use whatever I like and dismiss whatever I don't like. But I have everything I need for another couple of years of good gaming. So, no re-boot for me.

Yet fresh blood is needed.
New player find it intimidating some say. And gothic is in the fashion nowadays. And so is simple gaming. Deep rich background is few a new players dish. Well, than give the people a Weekend in Hell if that is what the people need.

But for me, a gothic setting is based on a lot of background and rich history, familytrees and ancient tragedy. So the more info the better.

[Le Noir Faineant]

BBQD, Archedius, and midnightcat have all pretty much articulated what I would have wanted to say.

I also don't see it as OUR task to bring new players to the setting; we already do that whenever we open a new RL campaign or invite new players to our games.

New, updated, and revised material isn't really needed, if we focus on what we have already. Although new material is always nice.

[alhoon]

Someone needs to check out Quoth the Raven, the Fraternity's netbook series. Issues #12 and 13 from here:
http://www.fraternityofshadows.com/Library.html

While I wince at plugging myself, I do some lengthy articles on dwarves, halflings and elves (Races of the Mists parts I through III). Next is gnomes whenever we get around to QtR#14.

And all are good. I prefer the halflings however.
And about gnomes, please Jester, change their Favorite class back to wizard...

[NeoTiamat]

This is just a passing thought, so don't jump on me if I'm wrong but....

If we want to get new players into Ravenloft, mightn't it be a better idea to try and advertise? I don't think the complexity of the setting has anything to do with the problem, just the lack of general awareness.

I think that pretty much anyone that is already visiting this site knows a fair bit about Ravenloft to begin with, so newbie-friendly material here is unlikely to attract many new faces.

A better idea might be to try and spread Ravenloft awareness in other venues. As previous posters have said, just having the DMs visiting this site make Ravenloft games is a good place to start, especially if any of those players are DMs in other games.

Perhaps running more and more prominent Ravenloft games at various conventions?

Perhaps putting more emphasis on Ravenloft in other D&D forums? I.e. Posting about Ravenloft-related things, and hopefully doing so in a sufficiently interesting way to get people curious enough to visit?

[Dominique]

I am DEFINITELY opposed to retconning the intricacy and the plots, and this is coming from someone who knows little enough about many of the intricate points to feel like a total newbie on these boards sometimes (I can't tell you how many times I've wondered what the heck Carnival was because I didn't have the money to buy mods back in the 2e days). For one thing, I find the Ravenloft metaplot extremely interesting and am a sucker for messy political situations (OK, so that's two things). I know that's just my personal taste, though. What I feel definitely makes intricate Ravenloft more interesting than weekend-in-hell Ravenloft is that it gives you much more of a background if the players start doing things you don't expect. When you have a strong idea of who the darklords are and what's going on in their domains--something I never had in 2e--it makes it much easier to make stuff up on the fly.

Here's an example. My PCs were recently in Hazlan. I was expecting the Hazlan setting to be little more than window dressing for the plot stuff that was going on (IMC there's a powerful fey that's messing around with sites of major magical energy, and Hazlan was more important for being a magically charged domain than for anything else). Much to my surprise, the PCs really got emotionally involved in the things that were going on in Hazlan, expressing deep personal horror at the magical experimentation and vowing that some day they would come back and find some way to liberate the Rashemani. They were even discussing staging some kind of rebellion against Hazlik involving holding Eleni for ransom--and this was within the first hour or so of the session, so there was no way that I could have ended the session there and knuckled down for some major planning for the next session, trying to figure out how to flesh out Hazlik beyond his five paragraphs of description in the Black Box and work out exactly what his motivation was other than "use magic, be evil." But because the gazetteers go into so much detail, I had something to fall back on. This is Hazlik's personality; this is Eleni's personality; this is the level to which Hazlik would go absolutely freaking nuts if they kidnapped Eleni because he cares for her and, more importantly, because it would destroy his plans; this is the unusual direction things might take if they went to plead on behalf of the Rashemani in a more peaceable style because Hazlik hates the Mulan even more than they do and might try to find a way to ensnare them as pawns; and on and on. Rather than seeing my life briefly flash before my eyes the way that I did when a monkey wrench was thrown into my plot in the Weekend in Hell days, I was excited at the thought of delving into all this very fun background I had on Hazlan. The PCs never actually went through with any of these plans, but if they had, I would have been ready for it.

And--here's the thing--I could have scrapped it all if I'd wanted to. If I decided that IMC Hazlik had no plans revolving around Eleni and didn't even care for her, or that Eleni was a fairly innocent girl who was being corrupted by Hazlik due to an unrequited love for him and that the PCs could bring her over to their side with careful roleplaying, or that she was aware of his plans andwas manipulating him to her own ends, or that Hazlik had no apprentice at all and no overarching plan and Eleni was just some random student in the Red Academy, I could have done it. It's my campaign, and I've told my only player who knows anything about Ravenloft that I'm going to do my own thing with the setting if I don't like what's written in canon (I've already done major rewrites on the Morninglord because I think it's a pretty shallow religion as-is). Having details in the setting is incredibly useful for those of us who have a hard time coming up with details on our own, and for those who don't like the details, they're easily written out.

I think that's officially the longest post I've ever made . . .